LS6 Cerb in NZ update
Discussion
Graham said:
Very nice pics but I noticed it's not an lsx engine. I suspect the lsx may be a bit more compact then the small block you're using, just for information of course.
Boosted.
MMM an lsx is on my shopping list for next season if we decide we need more power. its very tight at the back with an rv8 in there so im not sure i'll get an lsx back as far as i want, and i dont want to mod the chassis or body..
G
The lsx is shorter then the rover and with the right components can be made even shorter then it already is
Boosted.
Boosted Ls1 said:
The lsx is shorter then the rover and with the right components can be made even shorter then it already is
Boosted.
The problem is width at the back of the engine, the chassis is very narrow.Although i suppose if the engine is shorter, not having it as far back as the rover may actually have the weight in the same place.. we do have the rv8 further back than the ajp was, and thats (AJP) quite compact as well. Boosted, ref making it shorter as we can loose alternator and pas pump, did i see you had a replacement for the water pump that would remove the need for any belts on the front ?
sorry for the thread hi-jack Graham said:
The lsx is shorter then the rover and with the right components can be made even shorter then it already is
Boosted.
Boosted, ref making it shorter as we can loose alternator and pas pump, did i see you had a replacement for the water pump that would remove the need for any belts on the front ?
Yep, it shaves at least 4 inches from the lsx engine length. You can also fit a shorter crank pulley and shorter front covers if need be. Makes for a very flat fronted engine.
Boosted.
chevtrev said:
Thanks Jon - interested in hearing more about the TVRolet conversion and yes, as the first guy to actually make this conversion happen appreciate your comments a lot!
I'll beg to differ on your comment
OK -
- didn't realise you guys had it going earlier but Jon's was the first I saw and read about.
Mine is first road one (and still only one - but not for long...) - Paul and another chap out in NZ had 2 racer started before mine. Mine or the first of these racers first to roll around same time - mine first and only road one so far - about 10 months so far and LOADS of miles. Will be another in next few months.
All my calc's and measurements have front face of LS on mine in same position (give or take 1/2"
as the Rv8 - well maybe back 1/2" if anything.
The alternator and power steer pump are up high so only lump at the front is the main crank pulley. Running a shorter one without the rear AC drive with alternator and PS pump on the same plain would pull it back a bit, but can't see it being an issue at all if an RV8 goes in then an LS will.
All my calc's and measurements have front face of LS on mine in same position (give or take 1/2"
as the Rv8 - well maybe back 1/2" if anything. The alternator and power steer pump are up high so only lump at the front is the main crank pulley. Running a shorter one without the rear AC drive with alternator and PS pump on the same plain would pull it back a bit, but can't see it being an issue at all if an RV8 goes in then an LS will.
[quote=tvrolet
Re gearbox, have you considered a Tremek TKO600? There are a couple of real advantages over the T5/T56.
First, it's rather to 600ft/lb....unlike the T5/T56.
Second, it's got 6 positions for the gear lever, none of which involve remote linkages. As standard with the parts delivered you can mount the lever in 2 positions, and with an add-on cover/adapter thingy you get access to the 4 other positions. When I put the box in the tuscan I put my hand in exactly where I eanted the lever to be, and lo and behold that was one of the available positions
Third - against the T56, it's a five spead box, not 6. With the big torque of a chevy, I didn't want/need to keep swapping cogs to keep the thing on song.
[/quote]
Interesting pics - there's a much bigger gap between the top and bottom rails than in the Cerb/Chim chassis.
I was thinking seriously about the TKO but after seeing the LS6/T56 in Paul's Chim figured there was a high probability it would fit in the Cerb chassis as well. I'm not building a race car so not concerned about a bit of extra weight and it's got more than enough torque capacity.
Not sure why you say it isn't a six speed box? This one's out of a Holden Monaro - ratios are (I think, need to get this confirmed by Holden): 1st 2.97, 2nd 2.07, 3rd 1.43, 4th 1, 5th 0.84, 6th 0.57
Don
Re gearbox, have you considered a Tremek TKO600? There are a couple of real advantages over the T5/T56.
First, it's rather to 600ft/lb....unlike the T5/T56.
Second, it's got 6 positions for the gear lever, none of which involve remote linkages. As standard with the parts delivered you can mount the lever in 2 positions, and with an add-on cover/adapter thingy you get access to the 4 other positions. When I put the box in the tuscan I put my hand in exactly where I eanted the lever to be, and lo and behold that was one of the available positions
Third - against the T56, it's a five spead box, not 6. With the big torque of a chevy, I didn't want/need to keep swapping cogs to keep the thing on song.
[/quote]
Interesting pics - there's a much bigger gap between the top and bottom rails than in the Cerb/Chim chassis.
I was thinking seriously about the TKO but after seeing the LS6/T56 in Paul's Chim figured there was a high probability it would fit in the Cerb chassis as well. I'm not building a race car so not concerned about a bit of extra weight and it's got more than enough torque capacity.
Not sure why you say it isn't a six speed box? This one's out of a Holden Monaro - ratios are (I think, need to get this confirmed by Holden): 1st 2.97, 2nd 2.07, 3rd 1.43, 4th 1, 5th 0.84, 6th 0.57
Don
tko is the middle size wise of the 3 - and (thought it was 4 positions - looks like it from looking at all my pics) best torque rating and do you need the 6th gear if it is for going FAST. But if space and weight not top priority t56 would be fine. When you have 450 bhp what is 10 - 20kgs!
LS's are really (rated at 220 - 300 ft/lbs depending on who you talk to - tremec told me 300) leaving these behind with the endless mods that can just through torque and power a plenty at the box. Even in mild form they will break sooner rather tha later.
Get the .8 ish not the .6 final drive if you go tko (.6 for cruising) .8 is about same as the std t5.
LS's are really (rated at 220 - 300 ft/lbs depending on who you talk to - tremec told me 300) leaving these behind with the endless mods that can just through torque and power a plenty at the box. Even in mild form they will break sooner rather tha later.
Get the .8 ish not the .6 final drive if you go tko (.6 for cruising) .8 is about same as the std t5.
jellison said:
Okky Dokky Paul (do you have your new engine yet?)
Nope,Ls7 if the dry sump pump fits(its very tight) or sleeved ls1/6 and sequential t5 dog box.I'm lying low for a while untill I get some more bricks and mortar under my belt(we have a mini recession here)
Some advice for any builders,stick to the plan and get the car on the road or track,mine started out simple enough but has evolved into a no comprimise build that will cost me three to four times the estimate build, and may end up as a unfinished project if I don't keep the enthusium up and stick to a plan.
chevtrev said:
Okky Dokky Paul (do you have your new engine yet?)
Nope,Ls7 if the dry sump pump fits(its very tight)
The pumps inside the front cover but you must know that already. How much extra length do you think it's, including the pulley depth? If you get stuffed for space then it's either a change of pulley (there may be a slimmer option) or sleeved 427.
Boosted. Oh, midlands is in the middle of England, ie M1 motorway, Nottingham
Ffirg 005 said:
Re gearbox, have you considered a Tremek TKO600
...Third - against the T56, it's a five spead box, not 6.
Not sure why you say it isn't a six speed box? This one's out of a Holden Monaro - ratios are (I think, need to get this confirmed by Holden): 1st 2.97, 2nd 2.07, 3rd 1.43, 4th 1, 5th 0.84, 6th 0.57
No I'm saying the TKO600 is a 5 speeder against the 6 speed T56. And that, to me, is a further advantage of the TKO. If I had a peaky engine with a narrow powerband I'd want all the gears I cound get. With chevy-style torque I just don't see the need for 6 speeds. Others may have different views though.
Cerb chassis. I've done this so here is the reality.
It will require some surgery as you have two choices. One is to have it so the engine can only be removed after removing the body or the front is modified to allow the engine to be moved forward to get the engine out that way. Also the position that you can fit the engine in the chassis is different when the body is taken into account.
Custom engine mounts and headers are needed. Standard ones won't fit.
LS1 bell housing will not fit and allow the exhaust to go down the tunnel. Yes the exhuast can go under but then there will be virtually zero ground clearance.
LS1 flywheel will not fit because the bell housing is a problem nor will the starter moter nor will any of the reverse mount starters with small flywheels.
T56 gearbox won't fit and I doubt a TKO will either because the transmission tunnel is so tight. Yes you can cut into it and relocate everything but then the body has to be cut as well. A remote linkage would also be needed as the gear lever is not in the right position.
I have a Renault Kangoo pump located in the front of the radiator.
I'm reusing the Cerbera wiring harness with a standard MBE cos it is easier and more flexible.
Alternator and air con just bolt on.
Machined an adapter plate to allow the engine to reuse the gearbox/housing and clutch as this was the only thing that would fit in the transmission tunnel. And before ianyone says but it fits in a Chimaera/Tuscan yes but their tunnel is a lot wider as it has a Rover bellhousing to cope with. There is NO way it will fit without major surgery to both the chassis and the body and interior. Bear in mind the exhaust has to go down the tunnel, the strarter motor then blocks it as well. It is not simply a question of will it of won't it more of will it with all the other items I have to fit and will this cause other issues/problems.
Email if you want more info.
>> Edited by shpub on Saturday 11th February 18:37
It will require some surgery as you have two choices. One is to have it so the engine can only be removed after removing the body or the front is modified to allow the engine to be moved forward to get the engine out that way. Also the position that you can fit the engine in the chassis is different when the body is taken into account.
Custom engine mounts and headers are needed. Standard ones won't fit.
LS1 bell housing will not fit and allow the exhaust to go down the tunnel. Yes the exhuast can go under but then there will be virtually zero ground clearance.
LS1 flywheel will not fit because the bell housing is a problem nor will the starter moter nor will any of the reverse mount starters with small flywheels.
T56 gearbox won't fit and I doubt a TKO will either because the transmission tunnel is so tight. Yes you can cut into it and relocate everything but then the body has to be cut as well. A remote linkage would also be needed as the gear lever is not in the right position.
I have a Renault Kangoo pump located in the front of the radiator.
I'm reusing the Cerbera wiring harness with a standard MBE cos it is easier and more flexible.
Alternator and air con just bolt on.
Machined an adapter plate to allow the engine to reuse the gearbox/housing and clutch as this was the only thing that would fit in the transmission tunnel. And before ianyone says but it fits in a Chimaera/Tuscan yes but their tunnel is a lot wider as it has a Rover bellhousing to cope with. There is NO way it will fit without major surgery to both the chassis and the body and interior. Bear in mind the exhaust has to go down the tunnel, the strarter motor then blocks it as well. It is not simply a question of will it of won't it more of will it with all the other items I have to fit and will this cause other issues/problems.
Email if you want more info.
>> Edited by shpub on Saturday 11th February 18:37
OK, here's some measurements of the width of the chassis rails starting at the crossmember (0mm) and moving back at 50mm intervals. First column is the distance back from the rearmost crossmember at the front of the engine bay (ie where the crank pulley will be just about touching). 2nd column is the top rail, 3rd column is the bottom rail.
mm Top Rail Bottom Rail
0 563 497
50 562 497
100 561 497
150 561 497
200 560 497
250 559 497
300 558 497
350 558 497
400 557 497
450 556 497
500 555 482
550 555 470
600 520 455
650 490 440
700 455 427
750 430 415
800 402 400
850 370 382
900 350 370
next time I'm up where it's stored I'll measure further down the tunnel - this was all I could reach at the time.
And here's some measurements of the T56, taken at the points where it is widest and therefore I'd expect to hit problems. First column is distance in mm from the LS6 crank pulley (which will be just behind the crossmember that was the reference point for the chassis measurements).
mm T56 width
640 430 (this is the bellhousing width where it bolts to the engine)
800 320
970 300
1180 260
1480 gearshift lever which is just about at the end of the box. I estimate this to be around 200mm further back than the original position.
These measurements suggest to me that if there are any problems it will be quite a way down the tunnel, but as I didn't measure the chassis rails more than 900mm back I don't know where or how bad.
Ironically if there is some chassis mod required that's not all bad news because the more modified my chassis is the better chance I have of getting it accepted for road use under NZ's scratch-built car regulations. But that's another story....
Don
mm Top Rail Bottom Rail
0 563 497
50 562 497
100 561 497
150 561 497
200 560 497
250 559 497
300 558 497
350 558 497
400 557 497
450 556 497
500 555 482
550 555 470
600 520 455
650 490 440
700 455 427
750 430 415
800 402 400
850 370 382
900 350 370
next time I'm up where it's stored I'll measure further down the tunnel - this was all I could reach at the time.
And here's some measurements of the T56, taken at the points where it is widest and therefore I'd expect to hit problems. First column is distance in mm from the LS6 crank pulley (which will be just behind the crossmember that was the reference point for the chassis measurements).
mm T56 width
640 430 (this is the bellhousing width where it bolts to the engine)
800 320
970 300
1180 260
1480 gearshift lever which is just about at the end of the box. I estimate this to be around 200mm further back than the original position.
These measurements suggest to me that if there are any problems it will be quite a way down the tunnel, but as I didn't measure the chassis rails more than 900mm back I don't know where or how bad.
Ironically if there is some chassis mod required that's not all bad news because the more modified my chassis is the better chance I have of getting it accepted for road use under NZ's scratch-built car regulations. But that's another story....
Don
Steve,
Thanks for your comments.
Re engine removal. There's already more room around the engine bay because we scooped back a few inches in under the windscreen and out of the sides of the bay on either side in the course of repairing the GRP fire damage, so maybe there'll be enough room now to lift it out and up.
May have to do something innovative with the exhaust if the T56 is going to fill the tunnel... I like chevtrev's solution with twin pipes running under the Chim's door sills, but some bodywork needed to do that so I'll be trying to route it straight under the body if at all possible.
Bellhousing by itself isn't a problem here. At the widest point of the bellhousing it is 430mm wide and at that point the top and bottom chassis rails are 490 and 440mm wide respectively. This assumes the crank pulley is positioned 10mm back from the crossmember. Hadn't thought about the starter... Paul - would like to take you up on the offer to trial fit your mini starter & gearlinkage, cheers for that! At the end of the day surgery to chassis and body and interior will be done where necessary.
Renault Kangoo pump - I assume that's electric? How did you decide that particular one would be right for the cerb PS? Ignorant question... is a PS pump a PS pump a PS pump, or do they vary significantly in flow and PSI so you have to be precise about mating a pump to a given rack? Jap parts are much more available and cheaper here so if I knew some specs of what's required then it would avoid having to find one through trial and error (tho also looking into Jon's belt driven vette pump option - must be something similar fitted to the LSx Holdens so maybe can get one from a wrecker here).
Cheers
Don
Thanks for your comments.
Re engine removal. There's already more room around the engine bay because we scooped back a few inches in under the windscreen and out of the sides of the bay on either side in the course of repairing the GRP fire damage, so maybe there'll be enough room now to lift it out and up.
May have to do something innovative with the exhaust if the T56 is going to fill the tunnel... I like chevtrev's solution with twin pipes running under the Chim's door sills, but some bodywork needed to do that so I'll be trying to route it straight under the body if at all possible.
Bellhousing by itself isn't a problem here. At the widest point of the bellhousing it is 430mm wide and at that point the top and bottom chassis rails are 490 and 440mm wide respectively. This assumes the crank pulley is positioned 10mm back from the crossmember. Hadn't thought about the starter... Paul - would like to take you up on the offer to trial fit your mini starter & gearlinkage, cheers for that! At the end of the day surgery to chassis and body and interior will be done where necessary.
Renault Kangoo pump - I assume that's electric? How did you decide that particular one would be right for the cerb PS? Ignorant question... is a PS pump a PS pump a PS pump, or do they vary significantly in flow and PSI so you have to be precise about mating a pump to a given rack? Jap parts are much more available and cheaper here so if I knew some specs of what's required then it would avoid having to find one through trial and error (tho also looking into Jon's belt driven vette pump option - must be something similar fitted to the LSx Holdens so maybe can get one from a wrecker here).
Cheers
Don
System I used for PS is to use an SBC or later LS (now) alloy std PS pump - you can put it almost anywhere you want it if you hav the plates, tensioners and idlers! I found SBC iron one gave ligther steering, than newer ally one (which I have now). But you can get washer to put in the system to change the pressur to the rack - I have these but might not bother now the one I have seems about right for what I want.
Just mail if you need help on this.
Just mail if you need help on this.
If you have already removed bodywork etc and don't mind chassis surgery then quite a few issues go away. Personally I think you have to go down the tunnel as there really is no other option. Bodywork and chassis just get in the way and at some point you have to stop cutting chassis bits....
The other measurement you need to worry about is height. The normal T5 arrangment is actually quite high and therefore clearance for any type of remote is tough because there is no room. The top of the gearbox is a few mm under the top of the chassis rail. Again, minor suregry to the chassis and body may be needed. Also check on how this affects the width measurements you took as I suspect that what cleared before might not clear again.
Also be aware that the wider Corvette pan doesn't fit and fouls the main chassis rails on either side. The narrower pan is too deep to fit comfortably and protudes under the chassis. Can be raised but then the top of the engine starts hitting things.... Might need a custom pan.
I choose the Kangoo pump because the Kangoo is around the same weight as the Cerbera and more importantly I got a new one for £35.
The other measurement you need to worry about is height. The normal T5 arrangment is actually quite high and therefore clearance for any type of remote is tough because there is no room. The top of the gearbox is a few mm under the top of the chassis rail. Again, minor suregry to the chassis and body may be needed. Also check on how this affects the width measurements you took as I suspect that what cleared before might not clear again.
Also be aware that the wider Corvette pan doesn't fit and fouls the main chassis rails on either side. The narrower pan is too deep to fit comfortably and protudes under the chassis. Can be raised but then the top of the engine starts hitting things.... Might need a custom pan.
I choose the Kangoo pump because the Kangoo is around the same weight as the Cerbera and more importantly I got a new one for £35.
shpub said:
Also be aware that the wider Corvette pan doesn't fit and fouls the main chassis rails on either side. The narrower pan is too deep to fit comfortably and protudes under the chassis. Can be raised but then the top of the engine starts hitting things.... Might need a custom pan.
(speaking on behalf of Don)
Thats been taken car of,it's had the Chop.
Yep, late big wing can be chopped. Early big wing may fit if you can find one Ls2 pan is a real cheapie item. Probably costs about a third of the cost to produce compared to the last big wing, which was the pukka be all and end all of sumps. It was designed to stop starvation etc under high G loadings. Sometimes GM spin a whole lot of yarn, I don't believe the ls2 pan is better then the split level big wing!
Boosted.
Ls2 pan is a real cheapie item. Probably costs about a third of the cost to produce compared to the last big wing, which was the pukka be all and end all of sumps. It was designed to stop starvation etc under high G loadings. Sometimes GM spin a whole lot of yarn, I don't believe the ls2 pan is better then the split level big wing! Boosted.
Gassing Station | TVR Major Mods | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff