How do people downshift for more power without rev-matching?
Discussion
The majority of drivers on the road do not know how to rev-match, driving instructors don't teach it.
So for example, getting into a lower gear to make an overtake, or needing more power on an uphill incline.
I nearly got a fault on my driving test due to not knowing how to rev-match. On a NSL limit road I was in 4th gear and on an uphill incline the car wouldn't go above 40Mph with full throttle, with a car behind this could easily be a driving fault for "not making due progress" or whatever the fault for driving unnecessarily slowly is called.
Obviously in the same situation with my current driving skill, I would just rev-match down into 3rd to get the car higher in the rev-range for more power. But without matching the revs, surely the engine would just lose even more momentum when lifting the clutch and slow to well below 30Mph? Surely rev-matching is a necessary driving skill in this scenario? With the inability to rev-match, downshifting to 3rd did not seem a viable option to me.
How does the average driver avoid this loss of momentum when downshifting?
So for example, getting into a lower gear to make an overtake, or needing more power on an uphill incline.
I nearly got a fault on my driving test due to not knowing how to rev-match. On a NSL limit road I was in 4th gear and on an uphill incline the car wouldn't go above 40Mph with full throttle, with a car behind this could easily be a driving fault for "not making due progress" or whatever the fault for driving unnecessarily slowly is called.
Obviously in the same situation with my current driving skill, I would just rev-match down into 3rd to get the car higher in the rev-range for more power. But without matching the revs, surely the engine would just lose even more momentum when lifting the clutch and slow to well below 30Mph? Surely rev-matching is a necessary driving skill in this scenario? With the inability to rev-match, downshifting to 3rd did not seem a viable option to me.
How does the average driver avoid this loss of momentum when downshifting?
Discendo Discimus said:
Edit - after reading it again, you seem to think that when you lift the clutch after shifting from 4th to 3rd, the revs will somehow be the same as when it was in 4th unless you rev match.
When you go into 3rd and lift the clutch, the revs will typically rise around 2 to 3k because you're now in a different gear ratio.
Yep, still an odd thread.
I don't think that, I think that when rev-matching is left to the clutch, the engine speed will rise but the wheel speed will also decrease somewhat due to engine-braking, and even more so on an uphill incline.When you go into 3rd and lift the clutch, the revs will typically rise around 2 to 3k because you're now in a different gear ratio.
Yep, still an odd thread.
Edited by Discendo Discimus on Monday 1st July 15:21
Discendo Discimus said:
But that's why you would be back on the throttle as soon as the clutch is lifted, because you're trying to accelerate.
Obviously if you downshifted, lifted the clutch and coasted it would slow down, but that's not what anybody does.
So there isn't any significant engine-braking when lifting up the clutch?Obviously if you downshifted, lifted the clutch and coasted it would slow down, but that's not what anybody does.
boyse7en said:
DarkVeil said:
How does the average driver avoid this loss of momentum when downshifting?
You shift down a bit earlier before the engine starts to labour. Spending your formative driving years in a super-low powered car soon gets you used to the idea of conserving momentum.Glenn63 said:
I’m assuming the OP means using the cars momentum and engine to bring the revs up, rather than using the throttle to do it yourself whilst in neutral, would cause a slowing of the vehicle, which to a degree is correct but it would be so minimal and the fact your back on the power straight away in a lower gear you would quickly gain back the lost 1mph.
Yes, exactly BenS94 said:
I always rev match. Something I picked up in driving older knackered cars with dodgy clutches/synchros and it's a habit I've kept as it seems more mechanically sympathetic.
Yes, even in cars with good clutches and sychros it feels much more mechanically sympathetic. I learnt to rev-match not long after passing my test and since then very rarely downshift without it.Discendo Discimus said:
DarkVeil said:
Discendo Discimus said:
But that's why you would be back on the throttle as soon as the clutch is lifted, because you're trying to accelerate.
Obviously if you downshifted, lifted the clutch and coasted it would slow down, but that's not what anybody does.
So there isn't any significant engine-braking when lifting up the clutch?Obviously if you downshifted, lifted the clutch and coasted it would slow down, but that's not what anybody does.
Not if you're on the throttle as soon as the clutch is lifted. If you lift the clutch and don't touch the throttle then yes, there will be considerable engine braking.
Why don't you go out and try it? I assume you've got a manual if you're over-thinking it this much.
Actually reminds me of an ex who couldn't grasp the concept of engine braking. She would come down a gear then hit the throttle, and couldn't understand why the car was speeding up. I had to show her about 8 times before she finally understood.
Doofus said:
This. As far as I can work out, rev matching whilst accelerating just means keeping the throttle open when changing gear. Any sympathetic advantage this gives your gearbox will be conteracted by the additional wear on the clutch.
If the proposal is to drop into neutral, then blip the accelerator, then select the lower gear, then you've gained nothing in terms of acceleration. Whether you're on a hill or trying to overtake, you'll have lost a lot of momentum.
How is there additional wear on the clutch when it is done while the clutch is disengaged?If the proposal is to drop into neutral, then blip the accelerator, then select the lower gear, then you've gained nothing in terms of acceleration. Whether you're on a hill or trying to overtake, you'll have lost a lot of momentum.
I'm not talking about double-clutching.
Imagine you are in 4th but want to drop into 3rd to overtake, I would blip throttle while the clutch is depressed, so the clutch can be released quickly and smoothly. Without blipping the throttle, the clutch has to be released much more slowly since it needs to match engine speed to wheel speed.
Doofus said:
DarkVeil said:
Doofus said:
This. As far as I can work out, rev matching whilst accelerating just means keeping the throttle open when changing gear. Any sympathetic advantage this gives your gearbox will be conteracted by the additional wear on the clutch.
If the proposal is to drop into neutral, then blip the accelerator, then select the lower gear, then you've gained nothing in terms of acceleration. Whether you're on a hill or trying to overtake, you'll have lost a lot of momentum.
How is there additional wear on the clutch when it is done while the clutch is disengaged?If the proposal is to drop into neutral, then blip the accelerator, then select the lower gear, then you've gained nothing in terms of acceleration. Whether you're on a hill or trying to overtake, you'll have lost a lot of momentum.
not talking about double-clutching.
Imagine you are in 4th but want to drop into 3rd to overtake, I would blip throttle while the clutch is depressed, so the clutch can be released quickly and smoothly. Without blipping the throttle, the clutch has to be released much more slowly since it needs to match engine speed to wheel speed.
It's already been asked, but have you ever tried changing down, under acceleration, using both your method and the normal one?
Rev matching when slowing down avoids jerkiness from engine braking. Rev matching when accelerating makes no sense. That's what a gearbox is for.
popeyewhite said:
DarkVeil said:
Watch Conquer Driving's video on YouTube about rev-matching, my method is the same as his. It's a far faster way of downshifting in preparation for a burst of acceleration since you can pretty much drop the clutch since the RPM is already at the right level for the new gear.
Yes you can do that but in the instance described by the OP in this thread it's not needed in the slightest.Discendo Discimus said:
OP What's your mechanical knowledge like?
Do you understand how the clutch, gearbox and differential all work together? I can't imagine you'd be asking these questions if you did, so maybe a youtube video would help you understand it.
I don't wish to be hostile at all, I just don't understand what you're trying to ask or achieve here. Plenty of people have explained how it works but you continue to question it. If you don't want to take anything we say on board, just continue driving the way you want to and ignore everyone else. You're really over-thinking it.
I was just curious as to how other drivers usually downshift for more power.Do you understand how the clutch, gearbox and differential all work together? I can't imagine you'd be asking these questions if you did, so maybe a youtube video would help you understand it.
I don't wish to be hostile at all, I just don't understand what you're trying to ask or achieve here. Plenty of people have explained how it works but you continue to question it. If you don't want to take anything we say on board, just continue driving the way you want to and ignore everyone else. You're really over-thinking it.
My method was learnt from Conquer Driving's video on YouTube, he's a driving instructor but also a driving enthusiast as well. So I thought it was a pretty common technique amongst driving enthusiasts, but then when I posted here it seems that most people don't know what I am talking about which was unexpected, one person even thought I was referring to double clutching.
I have basic knowledge of how the clutch and gearbox work.
Here's the video in case you are interested: https://youtu.be/-RnPUq2yut4?si=tCqjG4UAET-Rj5Xw
Doofus said:
DarkVeil said:
one person even thought I was referring to double clutching.
You accused me of that, but I didn't think you were referring to double declutching; you just assumed I did.I do think it's all hooey though. The video you linked to demonstrates how to overcome a problem that only exists if you create it deliberately.
Ken_Code said:
DarkVeil said:
So why did someone post a picture of tractor saying I need a more modern car?
Because the invented problem that you are claiming to have overcome isn’t an issue on anything sold in the last forty years.Seriously, invest in some advanced driving lessons, you sound as though you’d really benefit from them. If nothing else it’d teach you about how to be in the right gear ahead of needing to accelerate.
And before you object, you wrote this, which would not have happened had you learned to look ahead and choose the appropriate gear;
“ On a NSL limit road I was in 4th gear and on an uphill incline the car wouldn't go above 40Mph with full throttle”
Not sure what everyone seems to have against manual rev-matching, it's a useful skill to be able to drop a gear much more quickly than having to slowly release the clutch.
Gary C said:
Humm
Not quite how I read his rambling and confusing post, but I was assuming he is just explaining the simple process of a blip to raise the revs as you downshift in a confusing and odd manner.
But the act of a blip on a downshift isn't quite pointless but I can't be arsed to work out what he means.
That's exactly what I meant. Blipping the throttle during a downshift.Not quite how I read his rambling and confusing post, but I was assuming he is just explaining the simple process of a blip to raise the revs as you downshift in a confusing and odd manner.
But the act of a blip on a downshift isn't quite pointless but I can't be arsed to work out what he means.
Discendo Discimus said:
I'm sorry but the original post did not describe a blip on a downshift to me. Just look at the title of the thread, he's asking how it's possible to accelerate after downshifting without a blip.
Nobody would disagree heel and toe doesn't aid a smoother downshift, but that's not what he's asking.
A blip on the downshift is my method (which I referred to as rev matching), the question was how do others downshift without it the blip. Nobody would disagree heel and toe doesn't aid a smoother downshift, but that's not what he's asking.
Edited by DarkVeil on Wednesday 3rd July 13:49
Salted_Peanut said:
Ken_Code said:
Seriously, invest in some advanced driving lessons
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
I'm not quite sure why I got the suggestion of advanced driving lessons, I assume because the scenario I gave was due to a lack of anticipation.
Doofus said:
Salted_Peanut said:
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.
Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
But, and I keep saying this, he's talking about changing down in order to accelerate, not to slow down.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
I'm not sure how fast his flywheel spins up such that he can effectively increase engine speed to match the lower gear, not lose any speed, and also not immediately find himself off the power band i the new gear. And I'm not sure how he can do this faster than just changing down and getting back on the power like a normal person.
2: Simultaneously change gear and blip the throttle
3: Drop the clutch
4: Get back on the throttle
The whole process only takes a couple of seconds to be in the power band of the lower gear. What would a normal person do that is faster?
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