Brown trouser moment (what can I learn)
Discussion
I have a Mk2 MX-5 with LSD.
Driving home from work today and the conditions are awful. Gusty powerful wind and snow (resulting in drifts on the road etc). Visability anywhere from 20-200m. However it's just above freezing, so although there's quite a lot of snow it's also very wet snow.
Driving slowly, almost slower than the rest of the traffic, and the odd gust is pushing the car around. This sometimes meant the back was pushed onto the snow, with the wheels then pushing the back end out. However due to the lower speeds this was quite easy to correct.
I went into one of the tunnels and in 5th gear (around 2300rpm - 70kmph) started to accelerate quite gently. However the back end quickly let go, and I took my foot off the accelerator but did not break. I overcorrected 3 times, with it getting worse quickly. The 4th time the car spun around completely, coming to a stop facing the right way and perfectly in the lane.
To be honest it was more sheer luck I didn't hit anything than skill. It was rush hour, the tunnel was dual carriageway with nothing beside me, whereas all the other tunnels are single carriageway open to traffic coming the other way. There was dampness in the tunnel, and it's very unlikely there was ice (the tunnels are too warm). I also have winter tyres on.
Obviously it's hard to say for certain, but what should I have done/ not done? When the car slides at lower speeds taking my foot off the accelerator works well, but is it wrong at higher speeds? I was surprised the back end went so quickly - I guess the tyres would be cold - would this make them more likely to slide and then be difficult to correct? Is the LSD likely to have played a part? Is there anything else I have not mentioned that I should have done? What surprised me was it doing this with such low revs.
Ask questions and I'll answer honestly, I would like to learn to become a better driver, rather than appear a PH driving god,
I'm in Norway, so I can't do any of the UK driving courses, however I will try and find one here.
Driving home from work today and the conditions are awful. Gusty powerful wind and snow (resulting in drifts on the road etc). Visability anywhere from 20-200m. However it's just above freezing, so although there's quite a lot of snow it's also very wet snow.
Driving slowly, almost slower than the rest of the traffic, and the odd gust is pushing the car around. This sometimes meant the back was pushed onto the snow, with the wheels then pushing the back end out. However due to the lower speeds this was quite easy to correct.
I went into one of the tunnels and in 5th gear (around 2300rpm - 70kmph) started to accelerate quite gently. However the back end quickly let go, and I took my foot off the accelerator but did not break. I overcorrected 3 times, with it getting worse quickly. The 4th time the car spun around completely, coming to a stop facing the right way and perfectly in the lane.
To be honest it was more sheer luck I didn't hit anything than skill. It was rush hour, the tunnel was dual carriageway with nothing beside me, whereas all the other tunnels are single carriageway open to traffic coming the other way. There was dampness in the tunnel, and it's very unlikely there was ice (the tunnels are too warm). I also have winter tyres on.
Obviously it's hard to say for certain, but what should I have done/ not done? When the car slides at lower speeds taking my foot off the accelerator works well, but is it wrong at higher speeds? I was surprised the back end went so quickly - I guess the tyres would be cold - would this make them more likely to slide and then be difficult to correct? Is the LSD likely to have played a part? Is there anything else I have not mentioned that I should have done? What surprised me was it doing this with such low revs.
Ask questions and I'll answer honestly, I would like to learn to become a better driver, rather than appear a PH driving god,
I'm in Norway, so I can't do any of the UK driving courses, however I will try and find one here.
Edited by Jerwatt on Thursday 24th March 16:54
Jerwatt said:
CommanderJameson said:
I would have kept my foot in, tbh.
Why would this help in a RWD car? I would have thought that would then push the back end further round? Or am I missing something?I wouldn't have accelerated more, just kept it where it was or lifted off just a little.
jt racing said:
Lifting off completely wouldn't help, creates the lift off oversteer thing you can do with fwd cars. I'd have lifted a little and tried to catch it that way.
OP said "I went into one of the tunnels and in 5th gear (around 2300rpm - 70kmph)"Can you get lift off oversteer given these numbers?
Vaux said:
jt racing said:
Lifting off completely wouldn't help, creates the lift off oversteer thing you can do with fwd cars. I'd have lifted a little and tried to catch it that way.
OP said "I went into one of the tunnels and in 5th gear (around 2300rpm - 70kmph)"Can you get lift off oversteer given these numbers?
if it was slippery enough numbers really wouldn't come into this.
Matt
Experience has taught me that on snow, compacted snow, ice and frozen surfaces UNLESS you have chains, snow tyres, or similar grip producers you are on a very dicey wicket. I understand your concerns I have been there myyself.
If you have gone in too fast and therefore have a lot of energy to lose spinning is actually a very good way to slow down. Probably the quickest.
If you are a world class rally driver them maybe you could learn to dice on ice. But for ordinary mortals surely the best advice is either fit snow tyres or drive well within your safety margin.
I don't think this makes you a poor driver providing you know your limits. You can continue to drive on these roads but only with care.
I learnt this lesson long ago racing on the tracks. I was simply not consistently quick enough to be a class racer although in short bursts I could run at the front. But before long I would lose it and drop back. Time after time. Simply had to realise I was not in that league. And never would be.
I think the lesson really is to know your limits. And understand they are YOUR limits.
It is unrealistic to think you can be good at everything but who knows maybe you are a Jim Clarke. My experience is that these outstanding players are invariably unusually gifted. It looks so easy. It isn't.
If you have gone in too fast and therefore have a lot of energy to lose spinning is actually a very good way to slow down. Probably the quickest.
If you are a world class rally driver them maybe you could learn to dice on ice. But for ordinary mortals surely the best advice is either fit snow tyres or drive well within your safety margin.
I don't think this makes you a poor driver providing you know your limits. You can continue to drive on these roads but only with care.
I learnt this lesson long ago racing on the tracks. I was simply not consistently quick enough to be a class racer although in short bursts I could run at the front. But before long I would lose it and drop back. Time after time. Simply had to realise I was not in that league. And never would be.
I think the lesson really is to know your limits. And understand they are YOUR limits.
It is unrealistic to think you can be good at everything but who knows maybe you are a Jim Clarke. My experience is that these outstanding players are invariably unusually gifted. It looks so easy. It isn't.
Biggest lesson from this? What you think is a suitably low speed in really bad conditions probably isn't.
Not a criticism but the fact you were losing grip (controllably) on open road means you were virtually at the limit for your car in the conditions. Entering a tunnel then changes the road conditions - maybe for better, maybe for worse. If you're unlucky and they change for worse then you're put very suddenly past the car's limits and your trousers change colour!
Not a criticism but the fact you were losing grip (controllably) on open road means you were virtually at the limit for your car in the conditions. Entering a tunnel then changes the road conditions - maybe for better, maybe for worse. If you're unlucky and they change for worse then you're put very suddenly past the car's limits and your trousers change colour!
Jerwatt said:
I overcorrected 3 times, with it getting worse quickly. The 4th time the car spun around completely
Sounds like it could have been saved had you applied the correct amount of lock the first time, providing you took it back off at the right moment. Applying too much lock, or winding it off too quickly, will cause the car to fish tail in the manner you describe. IMO these things are all about having a "feel" for what the car is doing and although these skills can be practised and improved, as Stefan rightly pointed out, there are certain situations where only a gifted few are blessed with the ability to control.
Try a car control course or just find a big open space where you can play and get a feel for what the car is doing. There must be some great venues near you!
Cannot help with why it let go in a tunnel with winter tyres on, maybe oil or diesel in there but it sounds like the car was fishtailing with you getting further and further behind in the correction until you spun.
Generally when you fail to react fast enough to the first oversteer skid it will get harder.
Unfortuanely most solutions are counter-intuitive so unless you practice them regularly chances are you will have forgotten.
The technique to recover is to get ahead of the slide with counter steer, you need to be very fast, you can either leave the throttle in the same place or slightly reduce, if you get ahead you can then bring it back, if you are not ahead the car will evetually react to the counter steer and come back with a vengence and take you past the straight ahead position again you have to get ahead but now its getting beyond human . Some drifters simply let go of the steering wheel but its not accurate in my view and wont help you get straight ahead. The timing and speed you need to apply counter steer and then take it off is much faster than you probably realise
Simpliest solution if it happens again is to put the correction on and assume you are too late again and when it starts to come back wait until its nearly straight and hit the brakes as hard as you can, not very elegant for you or your passengers but is quite effective.
As you are in Norway, you might try www.icedrivesweden.com its close to the border near Rorbacksnas, a week there will give you everything you need.
Oh forgot to mention the LSD can make the rear step out faster than without
Generally when you fail to react fast enough to the first oversteer skid it will get harder.
Unfortuanely most solutions are counter-intuitive so unless you practice them regularly chances are you will have forgotten.
The technique to recover is to get ahead of the slide with counter steer, you need to be very fast, you can either leave the throttle in the same place or slightly reduce, if you get ahead you can then bring it back, if you are not ahead the car will evetually react to the counter steer and come back with a vengence and take you past the straight ahead position again you have to get ahead but now its getting beyond human . Some drifters simply let go of the steering wheel but its not accurate in my view and wont help you get straight ahead. The timing and speed you need to apply counter steer and then take it off is much faster than you probably realise
Simpliest solution if it happens again is to put the correction on and assume you are too late again and when it starts to come back wait until its nearly straight and hit the brakes as hard as you can, not very elegant for you or your passengers but is quite effective.
As you are in Norway, you might try www.icedrivesweden.com its close to the border near Rorbacksnas, a week there will give you everything you need.
Oh forgot to mention the LSD can make the rear step out faster than without
I suspect there was 3 possible reasons:
1) Snow blown in to the tunnel due to the high winds, which had melted, creating a difficult to see slush.
2) Oil
3) Ice (although I suspect this was less likely due to the temperature in the tunnels)
I think you're correct with the being too slow in correct, as it got worse each time (which is why it happened a few times before the final spin). I am (or at least have been) ok at correcting in 1st and 2nd gear, it's just been in higher gears that have been the problem (and therefore due to it happening much quicker I don't react in time). Good advice to know for the future, although hopefully I will not have to use it!
One of the plans is to use somewhere I can practice at higher speeds, and hopefully I get someone to help teach me while doing this.
A "problem" with this is that most other cars around here have higher limits (some have spiked tyres, a lot more are 4x4 etc). This means they are slowed down by me when I am driving below my limits (light car, RWD etc). Obviously it's much better to be safer, but there is a slight pressure due to slowing people down a lot (the passing places are just plain dangerous to go in if the rest of the road is this bad). No excuse, but I guess it was playing on my mind a little.
Thanks for all the advice,
1) Snow blown in to the tunnel due to the high winds, which had melted, creating a difficult to see slush.
2) Oil
3) Ice (although I suspect this was less likely due to the temperature in the tunnels)
I think you're correct with the being too slow in correct, as it got worse each time (which is why it happened a few times before the final spin). I am (or at least have been) ok at correcting in 1st and 2nd gear, it's just been in higher gears that have been the problem (and therefore due to it happening much quicker I don't react in time). Good advice to know for the future, although hopefully I will not have to use it!
One of the plans is to use somewhere I can practice at higher speeds, and hopefully I get someone to help teach me while doing this.
Variomatic said:
Biggest lesson from this? What you think is a suitably low speed in really bad conditions probably isn't.
Not a criticism but the fact you were losing grip (controllably) on open road means you were virtually at the limit for your car in the conditions. Entering a tunnel then changes the road conditions - maybe for better, maybe for worse. If you're unlucky and they change for worse then you're put very suddenly past the car's limits and your trousers change colour!
I have to agree - I had been driving below the car's limits outside the tunnel, occasionally just on them in some patches. The tunnels had been much safer places previously (as mentioned they are warmer places at the moment, one of the results is that the windows instantly mist over when you enter them due to water condensing on the car.). I had assumed this would result in a less slippery surface and had started to adjust accordingly, but got it wrong. The main thing from this is that I will be more careful in predicting the limits!Not a criticism but the fact you were losing grip (controllably) on open road means you were virtually at the limit for your car in the conditions. Entering a tunnel then changes the road conditions - maybe for better, maybe for worse. If you're unlucky and they change for worse then you're put very suddenly past the car's limits and your trousers change colour!
A "problem" with this is that most other cars around here have higher limits (some have spiked tyres, a lot more are 4x4 etc). This means they are slowed down by me when I am driving below my limits (light car, RWD etc). Obviously it's much better to be safer, but there is a slight pressure due to slowing people down a lot (the passing places are just plain dangerous to go in if the rest of the road is this bad). No excuse, but I guess it was playing on my mind a little.
Steffan said:
If you are a world class rally driver them maybe you could learn to dice on ice. But for ordinary mortals surely the best advice is either fit snow tyres or drive well within your safety margin.
I don't think this makes you a poor driver providing you know your limits. You can continue to drive on these roads but only with care.
I learnt this lesson long ago racing on the tracks. I was simply not consistently quick enough to be a class racer although in short bursts I could run at the front. But before long I would lose it and drop back. Time after time. Simply had to realise I was not in that league. And never would be.
I think the lesson really is to know your limits. And understand they are YOUR limits.
It is unrealistic to think you can be good at everything but who knows maybe you are a Jim Clarke. My experience is that these outstanding players are invariably unusually gifted. It looks so easy. It isn't.
I certainly know I am not in this league, and am not aiming to drive as if I was - if for nothing else the lack of experience in driving. I'm from the UK, so have not had much experience (2 months) driving in snow.I don't think this makes you a poor driver providing you know your limits. You can continue to drive on these roads but only with care.
I learnt this lesson long ago racing on the tracks. I was simply not consistently quick enough to be a class racer although in short bursts I could run at the front. But before long I would lose it and drop back. Time after time. Simply had to realise I was not in that league. And never would be.
I think the lesson really is to know your limits. And understand they are YOUR limits.
It is unrealistic to think you can be good at everything but who knows maybe you are a Jim Clarke. My experience is that these outstanding players are invariably unusually gifted. It looks so easy. It isn't.
Thanks for all the advice,
First thing to remember is look where you want the car to go. declutching will mean all 4 wheels have the same amount of grip and resistance. Letting go of the steering wheel will allow the castor effect to point the wheels in exactly the correct direction, this is a tad extreem but allowing the steering wheel to slip freely through your fingers works well. Smooth is always the bottom line and of course the advance driving mantra of dont get in a mess in the first place, but that requires 20-20 hindsight.
It's 50/50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiVIDjGQQYM&fea...
Some you catch, some you don't. Lifting off reduces the lateral force across the rear sending the car to the outside of the turn, making it worse. More power /blipping can actually be fine if you have balanced the slide. It's the first initial correction that is important but it is almost certain to result in over correction in a pendulum effect unless you are a driving god, demonstrated in the video above.
Some you catch, some you don't. Lifting off reduces the lateral force across the rear sending the car to the outside of the turn, making it worse. More power /blipping can actually be fine if you have balanced the slide. It's the first initial correction that is important but it is almost certain to result in over correction in a pendulum effect unless you are a driving god, demonstrated in the video above.
although i try not to drive in bad conditions (Lotus Elise) the best way to correct a slide going wrong, i always thought was to lift off but still keeping a tiny bit of throttle while your correctring your steering so the rear doesnt totally lose traction. Thankfully i havent been in this situation apart from the odd car park 
Jonny
Jonny
I've managed it at around 40kmh in the dry. That was scary, I think there must have been something on the roundabout in that situation.
But generally, if you span, you were probably going a bit too fast for the situation. It sounds like it would have been hard to realise that from the apparent road condition, but there may be a microclimate issue causing the road to be especially slippery at the tunnel entrances. Might be worth asking the locals?
But generally, if you span, you were probably going a bit too fast for the situation. It sounds like it would have been hard to realise that from the apparent road condition, but there may be a microclimate issue causing the road to be especially slippery at the tunnel entrances. Might be worth asking the locals?
An update:
I hadn't driven the car since the spin, as there has been a lot of snow and I just don't have the height clearance to be able to drive it! I had been wanting to drive since (so as not to leave it a long time and "frighten" myself from driving) but it wasn't possible. I cleaned the snow from and around the car yesterday evening and discovered I had a flat. Checked the tyre and discovered there was a big obvious hole where a nail/ screw had gone through it.
I'm wondering if a puncture would have been enough to cause what happened? It was the front right tyre, with the car sliding to the right for the first fishtale. It is a short drive to my house (<2km), and so I wonder if I didn't notice the bad handling this could have caused due to the nerves and adrenaline from the spin.
It would explain why it happened when I couldn't work out any obvious reason. There had been no problems with other cars in front or behind that I could see. Obviously my judgement would not be perfect and so it still could have been ice or oil, but as I said the tunnels are normally a lot warmer (in winter) and so it was unlikely. This is not to say I'll ignore any of the comments from here - it's good to learn them, and I have a better idea of what to do/ avoid doing in these type of situations. Or perhaps it's impossible for this to have happened from a puncture and therefore it has to have been ice/ oil anyway? I guess that would mean the spin caused a nail that was there previously to have come out, resulting in the flat tyre.
In regards to the microclimate I have been driving the road for 2 months and know there are some, however this tunnel is not one of them. For example the start of the Helltunnelen (yeap, I drive through Hell and back each day for work) results in instant thick condensation on the car, so much so that the water is running off it). Interesting to first discover by losing all visability instantly! In summer sometimes the tunnels take a while to warm up, I heard of someone who had steam instantly form on the inside of the windsheild when entering one!
I don't see what the problem was, the pink fluffy bunnies stopped the car hitting anything dangerous!
I hadn't driven the car since the spin, as there has been a lot of snow and I just don't have the height clearance to be able to drive it! I had been wanting to drive since (so as not to leave it a long time and "frighten" myself from driving) but it wasn't possible. I cleaned the snow from and around the car yesterday evening and discovered I had a flat. Checked the tyre and discovered there was a big obvious hole where a nail/ screw had gone through it.
I'm wondering if a puncture would have been enough to cause what happened? It was the front right tyre, with the car sliding to the right for the first fishtale. It is a short drive to my house (<2km), and so I wonder if I didn't notice the bad handling this could have caused due to the nerves and adrenaline from the spin.
It would explain why it happened when I couldn't work out any obvious reason. There had been no problems with other cars in front or behind that I could see. Obviously my judgement would not be perfect and so it still could have been ice or oil, but as I said the tunnels are normally a lot warmer (in winter) and so it was unlikely. This is not to say I'll ignore any of the comments from here - it's good to learn them, and I have a better idea of what to do/ avoid doing in these type of situations. Or perhaps it's impossible for this to have happened from a puncture and therefore it has to have been ice/ oil anyway? I guess that would mean the spin caused a nail that was there previously to have come out, resulting in the flat tyre.
In regards to the microclimate I have been driving the road for 2 months and know there are some, however this tunnel is not one of them. For example the start of the Helltunnelen (yeap, I drive through Hell and back each day for work) results in instant thick condensation on the car, so much so that the water is running off it). Interesting to first discover by losing all visability instantly! In summer sometimes the tunnels take a while to warm up, I heard of someone who had steam instantly form on the inside of the windsheild when entering one!
JoesG26 said:
- Is the LSD likely to have played a part
Driving on lsd is never recommended :P
Driving on lsd is never recommended :P
I don't see what the problem was, the pink fluffy bunnies stopped the car hitting anything dangerous!Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff