Do Road AD techniques help with track driving?

[MagicalTrevor]

I went on first track day the other weekend and I tried to apply some principles of Advanced Driving which I suppose translate quite well (some cases) to how you should drive on a track.

For example:

• Braking in a straight line and completing all your braking before turning in
• Balanced throttle through the first part of the corner (to the apex or perceived apex)
• Only accelerating out of the corner when you know that you don't have to ease off the accelerator again or rather can see the road ahead to be clear and you can continue making progress.

This is a bit of an excuse to show off my video but consider this is a wet track. The techniques I learned with IAM helped me keep the laps smooth, with good observation and on the limits of grip (not taught by IAM ) without going over.

Track Day Video

I genuinely don't think I'd have been that smooth had I not done the IAM course.

Any thoughts?

[WhoseGeneration]

Nice, smooth driving from you.
Which did seem to be in an AD road driving style.
Btw, what were you driving?
This is relevant to following comments.
Accepting conditions weren't ideal, I observed a Renault which really did demonstrate how to perform.
I felt you were too early in slowing for corners, then not back on the throttle hard enough.
To answer your question though, up to a point.
That point being, in competition, you can assume no extraneous hazards on track or stage.
Marshalls will warn you of such.

[Gwagon111]

Well, you kept it on the track, didn't crash into anything / anyone, and didn't bin it in the gravel. That's more than some people manage on a rookie session . You do however, need to forget most of what you've learnt regarding road driving, if you want to make good progress on a track. One
example that stands out on your video is the amount of "coasting" you're doing on approach to corners. You can save a
surprising amount of time, simply by making sure you're on the gas right up until the braking point, then transferring straight to brake, with no coasting gap in
between. It's a bit counter intuitive at first, but gets to feel much more normal, with practice. Like I said, not a bad first
effort, plenty to work on . Something that's also worth remembering, is that on a wet, rubbered in track, there is often more grip in the puddles, than the conventional dry line, owing to the fact that a good downpour on a rubbered in line can be like sheet ice.

Edited by Gwagon111 on Tuesday 1st February 07:07

Edited by Gwagon111 on Tuesday 1st February 08:21

[anonymous-user]

I would say that AD skills can be helpful to smoothness on a track day and, as you demonstrated in your video, to help keep you out of the gravel and have some fun

But I think some additional techniques are needed to set lap records or win races

Main thing about track days for me is to enjoy it and get home afterwards having learnt to do something a bit better / faster than when I arrived

[MagicalTrevor]

Thanks all, an interesting discussion

WhoseGeneration said:

Nice, smooth driving from you.
Which did seem to be in an AD road driving style.
Btw, what were you driving?
This is relevant to following comments.
Accepting conditions weren't ideal, I observed a Renault which really did demonstrate how to perform.
I felt you were too early in slowing for corners, then not back on the throttle hard enough.
To answer your question though, up to a point.
That point being, in competition, you can assume no extraneous hazards on track or stage.
Marshalls will warn you of such.

I was driving a Renault Clio 172 (SS Exhaust, Upgraded Brakes). Not got the straightline speed but handles nicely through the corners even though I was on the limit of grip through many of them corners hence my caution on some of them such as the end of the long straight. That corner (Stowe) had claimed a few victims, although none serious, so I was careful to keep it on the track.
I was attempting, throughout the day, to start slower and then steadily increase the speed so that I didn't come a cropper.
Thinking about it (amazing what you forget) I was backing of earlier then I could have. I suppose through inexperience on the track really and remembering that I've got to drive the car home at the end of the day!

Gwagon111 said:

Well, you kept it on the track, didn't crash into anything / anyone, and didn't bin it in the gravel. That's more than some people manage on a rookie session . You do however, need to forget most of what you've learnt regarding road driving, if you want to make good progress on a track. One
example that stands out on your video is the amount of "coasting" you're doing on approach to corners. You can save a
surprising amount of time, simply by making sure you're on the gas right up until the braking point, then transferring straight to brake, with no coasting gap in
between. It's a bit counter intuitive at first, but gets to feel much more normal, with practice. Like I said, not a bad first
effort, plenty to work on . Something that's also worth remembering, is that on a wet, rubbered in track, there is often more grip in the puddles, than the conventional dry line, owing to the fact that a good downpour on a rubbered in line can be like sheet ice.

That's probably what I was finding at Stowe corner (end of the big straight), I was too cautious really and that's just down to experience. I've got much to learn but I did genuinely feel that the AD training did help, which surprised me as a year ago I would have said that Road AD techniques were the antithesis of track driving.

JPJPJP said:

I would say that AD skills can be helpful to smoothness on a track day and, as you demonstrated in your video, to help keep you out of the gravel and have some fun

But I think some additional techniques are needed to set lap records or win races

Main thing about track days for me is to enjoy it and get home afterwards having learnt to do something a bit better / faster than when I arrived

That certainly happened for me. I also learned how to handle a car on it's limits and also what to do when you go too far, something that I'd never do (or want to) on the road. I felt that track experience helped to balance the AD techniques learned and I started to learn skills that I would never safely or legally learn on the road.

Thanks for the comments guys, I've got much to learn but at least I'm on the right track (no pun intended)

[Steve Rance]

Well done. Not bad at all for a first attempt. There is a fair bit more to come to be honest in all sections of the corner. from my perspective, I would break the corner up into 6 or 8 sections but for simplicity I'll keep to 4. Yoyu need more speed Under brakng, turn in, speed apex and exit.

For your car, Keep it nice and smooth and slowly chip away at your braking point until you get understeer on turn in. You are now at turn in threashold. There will be more time to be had before hand under straight line braking also as this nmust also be at threashold. Once you get to turn in threashold, the may be more speed to be had. Try to keep the nose loaded to counter understeer by staying on the brakes at turn in then bleed off as you get to the apex. this will give you even more turn in and entry speed. If you go into oversteer snag less braking at turn in. If your car is set up well it will let you do it. If you get an oversteer problem, wind on more neg camber on the rear. The skill is knowing how much brake to snag and the resultant bleed rate. Use the brakes to keep the weight where you want it to maximise your entry speed and apex speed but make sure you are flat by the apex or your exit speed will be compromised. Remember, you are constantly trimming oposing loads applying to the car at the same time so the balance between understeer and oversteer is very fine. Keep all of your imputs smoth and progesive, keep your body relaxed, take care not to tighen up your muscles as you get quicker. In the wet, do not assume the fastest line is the dry line, it rarely is. You will need to hunt out the grip which will change with the conditions. The wet line at Silverstone is very different to the dry line. Whatever line you take, the car needs to be balanced on the edge of adhesion through the whole corner but you still need to be flat on the apex. Don't trail throttle, you are either on the brakes or on the throttle. If you need to trail you are braking too early and are miles off of the pace.

To get to the point of constant threashold you will probably spin about 50 times. Most people never get there. Different cars need different techniques but the you will need the same essential skills outlined above to get the most out of them. The driving skills that you develop together with an understanding of how to apply them to get the most out of the dynamic of the car that you are driving will define how good you really are.

Believe me there is a very long way between a competant track driver and a very quick one. In answer to your question, I think that the only elements that overlap from road to track is smoothness and awareness of what is around you. The rest I think is very different.

Anyway, as I as Great first effort

[MagicalTrevor]

Excellent post.

Thanks

[RobM77]

I haven't watched your video, but will do when I get home. From a theory point of view though I agree with everything above (esp Steve's post).

AD techniques will obviously help you get round the track safely, but I'm afraid they will need to be put to one side or modified in order to go quickly (and still safely - that's possible! Like Steve I've set lap records in the past, but am yet to actually crash a racing car and have only spun four or five times, and I'm certainly no genius or exception I'm sure). That said, as you've found out yourself, there are elements of AD road driving which work extremely well on track (smoothness, rev matching etc). One thing that's overlooked as well is the process of learning a motor skill. If you've had AD tuition in a car, you will soak up track tuition much more easily than someone who's not used to it. As a trainer/instructor myself, I've noticed that people used to learning are far easier to teach than those that aren't.

I agree with Steve's comments above, although I'm not sure I agree with a novice making setup changes. Even as a reasonably experienced track driver, I always force myself to get to know a car properly before I get the spanners out - often handling problems can be cured by a different driving approach rather than changing the car, and the end result will often be better (because you can concentrate on making the car fast through setup, not just bending to your own driving requirements. For example the camber change Steve suggested could be reducing grip or overheating tyres, which is necessary in some car's setups - especially FWD - but should be a last resort).

With regard to the turn in, the AD method you describe in your original post is condusive to an understeer balance. Essentially all you're doing at turn-in is trying to achieve a balance. You should start by exchanging braking for steering equally and smoothly, so as one decreases the other increases. Once you've done that into a corner, work out what the result was - understeer? oversteer? I don't mean a full blown slide - but how did the car feel? Did it feel like it was tending towards either state? You then change the timing of this exchange in order to achieve the balance you require - if the car's understeering then delay coming off the brake more to keep the front loaded as you steer, and the car's oversteering then come off the brake sooner. Eventually you'll be able to set this balance in real time as you turn in to each and every corner.

Mid corner you're trying to maintain this balance, so again, feel for what's happening and back off slightly to cure understeer, or accelerate slightly to cure understeer. Remember it by picturing a motorbike doing a wheelie (accelerate = light front end = understeer), and a stoppie (decelerate = light rear end = oversteer). However, in a car on track these are very subtle movements indeed. You may find it helpful mid-corner to imagine the car's half full of water and you're trying to keep the water level. This skill will actually transfer back onto the road - you'll find that you wear all four tyres evenly and you're also further from the limit at any given speed because you've created a higher total limit for the car. The other way to create a higher limit is to be smooth at all times.

Corner exit is essentially the opposite of corner entry, so you exchange steering for acceleration.

Once you're happy with the control of the balance of the car, you can start altering it to your advantage. For example, a FWD front engined car that understeers on corner exit will benefit from a slight oversteer balance prior to coming onto the throttle.

The last thing that's different between road and track is that the speeds on track mean fixed input steering is usually all you need. Also, steering at quarter to three with a fixed input means that a) you're better able to correct handling imbalances, and b) your inputs are measured and balanced (right arm effort equals left arm effort - so you're not falling from side to side like you would steering at ten to two).

I'll watch the video when I get home

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 8th February 17:57

[reggie82]

Rob / Steve - great posts!

Do the techniques you describe apply equally to RWD cars?

[RobM77]

reggie82 said:

Rob / Steve - great posts!

Do the techniques you describe apply equally to RWD cars?

Thanks. I've just made some changes to my post to clarify things so you may wish to have another look.

Yes, I deliberately kept my post open by discussing the predominate factors affecting a car, namely weight distribution and weight transfer. My advice above applies to FWd, 4WD and RWD. Put simply, the end that's driving the car will only change things if you cock up a downchange (that end will lock!) or when you come onto the throttle leaving a corner - that end will eventually slide if power overcomes grip.

I'm actually having some racing coaching in a FWD car at the moment, even though I race a RWD car, because there's lot that can be learnt about track driving which is independent of the driven end of the vehicle.

[RobM77]

Hi MT. I'm home now and have watched the video. Great overall - nice and relaxed, smooth, good steering technique, and you seem very aware of what's round you. The only comments I'd make really are to try and maintain a steady throttle through the corners and not coast into them, which can cause unwanted oversteer (see 6m39s!). Also, at one of the corners you were repeatedly starting to brake whilst you still had lock on from the previous bend. With both of these points, one you start building the speed up they may cause problems; the latter definitely will, so you'd need to arrange your line to give a straight braking zone. Building the speed is the next step, but that is obviously dependent on your confidence and care for the car etc

HTH

[MagicalTrevor]

Thanks Rob I'll take all the points mentioned onboard.

I take encouragement from the positive comments. I know I've got a very long road to travel and this is just the first step.

[reggie82]

RobM77 said:

reggie82 said:

Rob / Steve - great posts!

Do the techniques you describe apply equally to RWD cars?

Thanks. I've just made some changes to my post to clarify things so you may wish to have another look.

Cheers Rob.

[ScoobyChris]

MagicalTrevor said:

and on the limits of grip (not taught by IAM ) without going over.

If you want to explore this further, I can highly recommend Don Palmer's car control courses. He opened my eyes to the fact that I was artificially "lowering" the grip available on the tyres by asking too much of them at once and that by managing the inputs better and hinting the controls, my cornering speed could be significantly increased. Very subtle stuff, but the change was quite marked!

Chris

[MagicalTrevor]

ScoobyChris said:

If you want to explore this further, I can highly recommend Don Palmer's car control courses. He opened my eyes to the fact that I was artificially "lowering" the grip available on the tyres by asking too much of them at once and that by managing the inputs better and hinting the controls, my cornering speed could be significantly increased. Very subtle stuff, but the change was quite marked!

Chris

Thanks Chris