Good downshifts.

[C2james]

Hey, I passed my test in February so I'm still learning how to improve my driving and my question is, how do you do good, quickish downshifts, I see lots of drivers that blip the throttle while changing down but I can't get the hang of it, is it just a case of practise or is there a certain technique?

I dont drive like a chav, nor am i a chav I'm just interested as I did a trackday and noticed my downshifts weren't as good as the other drivers, I also noticed it when I went on a pistonhead hoon.

[XG332]

Two words.


Heel Toe

[parapaul]

Two words.

Rev matching.

[RWD cossie wil]

Best tip I was given is to gently drop it out of gear as you come off the gas, then as you are braking, heel & toe ( more like ball of your foot on the brake, and the edge of your foot on the gas now) to bring the revs up to easily slot into the next gear you want. I do it all the time now, even in boring slow cars, as it makes your progress so much smoother.

[Funk]

It is all just about practice. Some say it can't be done in a diesel, but I do it in mine all the time. Makes for a much smoother drive and less stress on your drivetrain.

The best way to start learning is to try shifting between gears whilst driving normally at a steady speed. This will help you get a feel for rev-matching. Once you can do it without any perceptible 'shunt', you'll have more feel for the right revs for each gear at a given speed. Then you can start to factor in the braking and the delicacy of 'blip' required to get the revs in the right place for the downshift whilst braking.

It's not actually 'heel and toe' confusingly, it's more like braking with the ball of your foot, but rolling the outside of your foot onto the accelerator to blip it. Some cars are better set up for it than others - most won't be that easy as the distance between the pedals and the relative height of the brake and accelerator when doing so is often not quite right. In some cars it's almost impossible.

Top tip; don't be so focussed on getting your foot to the accelerator that you don't leave enough of your foot for braking with...

Edited by Funk on Friday 31st December 15:18

[C2james]

Thanks for the advice, one of the main issues I have is the brake pedal is noticibly higher than the throttle so when I've tried to do heel and toe my foot doesn't really touch the pedal.

[Funk]

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way around that.

[gdaybruce]

The heel and toe part is optional - rev matching is the critical part to achieve smooth downchanges and you can do this by simply using your right foot to apply some throttle as you move through neutral into the next gear. Indeed, in an increasing number of modern cars the electronics won't alow you to accelerate whilst braking. On my company diesel Vauxhall you can just about get away with it before the engine management system convenes the relevant committee which clearly debates the matter for a second before deciding that such behaviour falls outside the rules and cuts the power. And don't even think about left foot braking while keeping some power on. Very frustrating for those of us brought up to use techniques that are now deemed "unsuitable"!

[fulvia griff]

The IAM teaches you to have all your braking done before you reach the corner, you then select the gear, get on the power and turn it. This gives you plenty of time to raise the revs if you need to without any fancy footwork and is a smooth way of driving but its definitely not the quickest way to drive when you're pushing on though! Like you I've not been driving long (almost two years) and everytime I try heel and toe I've made a hash of it and ended up getting everything wrong, so I don't try very often. Like all things though I'm certain with practice you'll get the hang of it.

[Hooli]

parapaul said:

Two words.

Rev matching.

This is much easier than heel & toe and does the same job with modern cars. Ok your not braking at the same time, but you can plan for that so it doens't matter.

The blip is just a matter of practise of how much throttle your car needs. I find it better to squeeze the throttle as it's hard to be accurate on the revs when just blipping.

[Gwagon111]

If you want to get your progress really slick, re. downshifts, you need to get the hang of both straight rev matching, and H&T. The trick is getting a feel for when each technique is most appropriate. I find the best roads to practice on, tend to be fast A roads, with lots of roundabouts along them, late at night, or early in the morning. If you find one with lots of different cambers and varying inclines ( some downhill braking into a roundabout, some uphill out of the roundabout), you'll get the hang of it quite quickly. There is one very obvious candidate road, I'm sure you're familiar with, on the Hampshire / West Sussex border. Just keep 'em peeled for BIB, and don't take the piss with your driving, and it's all good.

[C2james]

I'm not sure of that road, email me about it.

[chrisispringles]

I know what you mean OP, I'm on L plates so all my downshifts were horrible, jerky buggers until I learnt to rev match. I find that it's much easier to downshift smoothly by double declutching, as opposed to blipping the throttle with the clutch in, because you don't have the time in neutral to let the revs get too high if you're doing it quickly. Also remember that the difference in revs between 2 gears, assuming you aren't jumping gears, is rarely more than 500-1000 rpm so you only need to give the throttle a very quick blip.

[Jonny671]

Funk said:

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way around that.

There isn't.. The C2 isn't really a drivers car as such, its very difficult to do it.

Same with it having an electronic throttle, I can't imagine it'll help much.

At the moment try braking abit earlier/harder dipping the clutch and then blip the throttle down shift and it'll help you get a feel for whats going on.

Thats what I've found anyway.

[Engineer1]

Not every modern car is set up for Heal and Toe, I have heard stories of some where when the brake pedal is pressed the car ignores throttle inputs.

[Jonny671]

Engineer1 said:

Not every modern car is set up for Heal and Toe, I have heard stories of some where when the brake pedal is pressed the car ignores throttle inputs.

This IIRC is what happens on the C2.

[davepoth]

the best way to learn how to h&t properly is to get a car you don't like and drive without using the clutch. You get very good very quickly.

[WhoseGeneration]

C2james said:

Hey, I passed my test in February so I'm still learning how to improve my driving and my question is, how do you do good, quickish downshifts, I see lots of drivers that blip the throttle while changing down but I can't get the hang of it, is it just a case of practise or is there a certain technique?

I dont drive like a chav, nor am i a chav I'm just interested as I did a trackday and noticed my downshifts weren't as good as the other drivers, I also noticed it when I went on a pistonhead hoon.

As others have said it's mainly about your car and it's controls, fbw throttles can give more problems than the old cable operated ones.
Many fbw throttles are "lazy" at providing a "blip" when asked.
Btw, I really hate "computer says no", in so many areas of life.
Computers should be our servants not masters.
Initially I'd ignore the "quickish" and forget heel and toe, some cars not allowing brakes and throttle.
So, try a sustained revs downchange, approach a hazard, brake, on the straight, to the appropriate speed, declutch, select the required gear, maintain throttle position and gently ease up clutch. This can be used for a single gear downchange or blockshifting so long as you consider the speed and which gear going from and to.
As always these things are harder to describe than demonstrate so it might help if you signed up to an IAM course where there are folks who will help you.

Edit, to correct spelling and explain more precisely.

Edited by WhoseGeneration on Wednesday 29th December 22:15

[waremark]

C2james said:

Hey, I passed my test in February so I'm still learning how to improve my driving and my question is, how do you do good, quickish downshifts, I see lots of drivers that blip the throttle while changing down but I can't get the hang of it, is it just a case of practise or is there a certain technique?

I dont drive like a chav, nor am i a chav I'm just interested as I did a trackday and noticed my downshifts weren't as good as the other drivers, I also noticed it when I went on a pistonhead hoon.

Having done all that work to your car, aren't you planning to take extra training?

BTW, how do you manage to insure a modified car?

[C2james]

waremark said:

C2james said:

Hey, I passed my test in February so I'm still learning how to improve my driving and my question is, how do you do good, quickish downshifts, I see lots of drivers that blip the throttle while changing down but I can't get the hang of it, is it just a case of practise or is there a certain technique?

I dont drive like a chav, nor am i a chav I'm just interested as I did a trackday and noticed my downshifts weren't as
good as the other drivers, I also noticed
it when I went on a pistonhead hoon.

Having done all that work to your car, aren't you planning to take extra
training?

BTW, how do you manage to insure a
modified car?

It's fine for me, I told the insurance company and it didn't change the cost, which I was surprised at, I am considering taking advanced driving courses.