Race drivers best for road-based driving courses?
Discussion
What are your thoughts on ex-race drivers being the best road driver training guys? We know they have all the skills you could ever want but would you say that transfers into them being the right instructors for safety/eco/defensive driving? Whenever I've driven with one on the road, I can't say I felt unsafe by any stretch but I also knew I couldn't do what they were doing due to my limit in talent/skill. If you were looking for an advanced road driving course, would the fact it was headed up by a race driver put you off or encourage you?
I don't think there's anything about being a racing driver that precludes someone from being a proficient road instructor. Wasn't John Lyons a quite competitive racing driver at some stage of his life? He's one of the highest profile road instructors in the country.
There is much one can carry over from racing to safer road driving, namely feel of where the limit is and how to drive a car to raise a limit, although not to drive on the limit, but raise it further away from one's road speed. Here's the logic: if a good racing driver can corner 10% faster than someone else on track, it stands to reason that on the road if he uses those same techniques and stays at the same speed as another driver, he'll be 10% further from the car's limit on that occasion and therefore 10% safer.
Needless to say though, it's better to spend time learning observation and anticipation than put in the thousands of hours necessary to learn good car control, but of course, I do believe it improves one's safety to understand a car's limits properly. In terms of a road instructor, the odd hint to smooth out someone's driving and try to achieve the balance of a racer certainly can't do any harm can it?
There is much one can carry over from racing to safer road driving, namely feel of where the limit is and how to drive a car to raise a limit, although not to drive on the limit, but raise it further away from one's road speed. Here's the logic: if a good racing driver can corner 10% faster than someone else on track, it stands to reason that on the road if he uses those same techniques and stays at the same speed as another driver, he'll be 10% further from the car's limit on that occasion and therefore 10% safer.
Needless to say though, it's better to spend time learning observation and anticipation than put in the thousands of hours necessary to learn good car control, but of course, I do believe it improves one's safety to understand a car's limits properly. In terms of a road instructor, the odd hint to smooth out someone's driving and try to achieve the balance of a racer certainly can't do any harm can it?
My feeling that Advanced Driving (on the road) is around 90% mental skills, and 10% car control. For this reason, there are lots of other professions that lend themselves more to producing great AD instructors than racing drivers, many of whom are simply 90% mental.
That's not to say it's not possible, just that a successful racing career would be very low down on my list of priorities when choosing an instructor.
That's not to say it's not possible, just that a successful racing career would be very low down on my list of priorities when choosing an instructor.
RobM77 said:
Here's the logic: if a good racing driver can corner 10% faster than someone else on track, it stands to reason that on the road if he uses those same techniques and stays at the same speed as another driver, he'll be 10% further from the car's limit on that occasion and therefore 10% safer.
I've never seen any evidence that racers have 10% fewer accidents than non racers.The racer might be 10% less likely to exceed the magic limit. But the vast majority of road accidents have bugger all to do with the 'limit', they are mainly to do with not allowing for what other road users might do.
John Lyon has trained as a road driver and instructor to a very high level quite apart from his racing. Racing doesn't preclude being a good road instructor but I don't think it helps either, the disciplines are too different.
Put it this way. Would you expect a F1 team looking for a driver to give preference to those who had a spell as a BSM instructor on their CV?
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
Here's the logic: if a good racing driver can corner 10% faster than someone else on track, it stands to reason that on the road if he uses those same techniques and stays at the same speed as another driver, he'll be 10% further from the car's limit on that occasion and therefore 10% safer.
I've never seen any evidence that racers have 10% fewer accidents than non racers.The racer might be 10% less likely to exceed the magic limit. But the vast majority of road accidents have bugger all to do with the 'limit', they are mainly to do with not allowing for what other road users might do.
John Lyon has trained as a road driver and instructor to a very high level quite apart from his racing. Racing doesn't preclude being a good road instructor but I don't think it helps either, the disciplines are too different.
Put it this way. Would you expect a F1 team looking for a driver to give preference to those who had a spell as a BSM instructor on their CV?
Why should it? Car control is an element of road safety, but road safety is not an element of car control.Where have you looked for this evidence? Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
RobM77 said:
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
Here's the logic: if a good racing driver can corner 10% faster than someone else on track, it stands to reason that on the road if he uses those same techniques and stays at the same speed as another driver, he'll be 10% further from the car's limit on that occasion and therefore 10% safer.
I've never seen any evidence that racers have 10% fewer accidents than non racers.The racer might be 10% less likely to exceed the magic limit. But the vast majority of road accidents have bugger all to do with the 'limit', they are mainly to do with not allowing for what other road users might do.
John Lyon has trained as a road driver and instructor to a very high level quite apart from his racing. Racing doesn't preclude being a good road instructor but I don't think it helps either, the disciplines are too different.
Put it this way. Would you expect a F1 team looking for a driver to give preference to those who had a spell as a BSM instructor on their CV?
Why should it? Car control is an element of road safety, but road safety is not an element of car control.Where have you looked for this evidence? Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Driving instructors study of road safety doesn't involve limit handling, so they obviously don't regard that kind of car control as particularly relevant to road safety.
I did see some figures some years ago that racing drivers have slightly more accidents than the general public. Impossible to compare like with like of course but that is what I'd expect. My driving instructor mate recently had trouble persuading a pupil not to take a racing line through a blind right hander. The pupil might have been 10% further from the limit but he was still a menace.
As long as the driver keeps the two disciplines separate, and I'm sure most do, that's fine. But then is it really relevant?
I did see some figures some years ago that racing drivers have slightly more accidents than the general public. Impossible to compare like with like of course but that is what I'd expect. My driving instructor mate recently had trouble persuading a pupil not to take a racing line through a blind right hander. The pupil might have been 10% further from the limit but he was still a menace.
As long as the driver keeps the two disciplines separate, and I'm sure most do, that's fine. But then is it really relevant?
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Monday 20th December 18:26
It's a good point about the number of accidents - I don't think I've ever seen the comparative figures for race drivers and non-race drivers although I did think they paid higher insurance premiums (no indication of the risk from my experience of insurance companies, however).
I would have thought race drivers' high level of skill would make them prime candidates for being good instructors but I suppose it is down to the individual having the discipline to reign in their competitive tendencies and understand mere mortals are not capable of their level of car control.
I would have thought race drivers' high level of skill would make them prime candidates for being good instructors but I suppose it is down to the individual having the discipline to reign in their competitive tendencies and understand mere mortals are not capable of their level of car control.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
My feeling that Advanced Driving (on the road) is around 90% mental skills, and 10% car control. For this reason, there are lots of other professions that lend themselves more to producing great AD instructors than racing drivers, many of whom are simply 90% mental.
That's not to say it's not possible, just that a successful racing career would be very low down on my list of priorities when choosing an instructor.
That's a really good point about the mental skills. I met a Police high speed pursuit instructor and he was explaining that 95% of the recruits he trained had little or no 'raw talent' but learnt techniques which made them capable of high speed work.That's not to say it's not possible, just that a successful racing career would be very low down on my list of priorities when choosing an instructor.
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
Here's the logic: if a good racing driver can corner 10% faster than someone else on track, it stands to reason that on the road if he uses those same techniques and stays at the same speed as another driver, he'll be 10% further from the car's limit on that occasion and therefore 10% safer.
I've never seen any evidence that racers have 10% fewer accidents than non racers.The racer might be 10% less likely to exceed the magic limit. But the vast majority of road accidents have bugger all to do with the 'limit', they are mainly to do with not allowing for what other road users might do.
John Lyon has trained as a road driver and instructor to a very high level quite apart from his racing. Racing doesn't preclude being a good road instructor but I don't think it helps either, the disciplines are too different.
Put it this way. Would you expect a F1 team looking for a driver to give preference to those who had a spell as a BSM instructor on their CV?
Why should it? Car control is an element of road safety, but road safety is not an element of car control.Where have you looked for this evidence? Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
One thing I should say is that most people, having got themselves an extra 10-20% safety margin by driving properly (as I would call it), unfortunately usually drive 10-20% faster to compensate or drive at the same speed as everyone else and lose concentration. I know this because I myself struggle with both of these things constantly. I have to really try quite hard to drive at a lower speed, such as would be acceptable on an advanced driving test, and still pay attention completely. Interestingly, whilst I drive quite briskly in some situations, in other situations I do drive slower than many people I know, including advanced drivers of quite a high level around blind bends, at junctions etc, and I'm more cautious overtaking than many other people I know. Being concious of the limit and with perhaps a better developed sense of speed and judgement than road drivers does actually make you slow down more than you would do otherwise at times.
RobM77 said:
I have to really try quite hard to drive at a lower speed, such as would be acceptable on an advanced driving test,
Interesting comment, which I don't quite understand.Or, it implies you, despite your obvious deep thinking about driving, still haven't developed the mindset that is the point of "advanced driving".
It really is time you took one of the recognised AD road qualifications.
It could be, depending where you live, like mine was, mainly on nadgery rural A and B roads.
WhoseGeneration said:
RobM77 said:
I have to really try quite hard to drive at a lower speed, such as would be acceptable on an advanced driving test,
Interesting comment, which I don't quite understand.Or, it implies you, despite your obvious deep thinking about driving, still haven't developed the mindset that is the point of "advanced driving".
It really is time you took one of the recognised AD road qualifications.
It could be, depending where you live, like mine was, mainly on nadgery rural A and B roads.
RobM77 said:
One thing I should say is that most people, having got themselves an extra 10-20% safety margin by driving properly (as I would call it), unfortunately usually drive 10-20% faster to compensate or drive at the same speed as everyone else and lose concentration. I know this because I myself struggle with both of these things constantly. I have to really try quite hard to drive at a lower speed, such as would be acceptable on an advanced driving test, and still pay attention completely. Interestingly, whilst I drive quite briskly in some situations, in other situations I do drive slower than many people I know, including advanced drivers of quite a high level around blind bends, at junctions etc, and I'm more cautious overtaking than many other people I know. Being concious of the limit and with perhaps a better developed sense of speed and judgement than road drivers does actually make you slow down more than you would do otherwise at times.
I have nothing useful to add to this thread but... 
I agree with this entirely. I hope I will be forgiven for setting aside some of the discussion by addressing jags183's original question directly.
Firstly, road driving and race driving are almost completely different, having only the basic tools in common: the car and most of its components. Leonardo's brush has a lot in common with what might be used to redecorate your house, but employing an artist for window frames; skirting boards, etc. would be like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with Dulux. Whilst there is overlap, with both skills demanding something from the other domain, the emphasis is as different as using a pen for writing a diary for self reflection, to writing a technical paper for publication in Scientific American.
Would you choose an IAM examiner to teach racing techniques? Or Michael Schumacher to get your daughter through her 'L' test? Whilst there is an overlap, these disciplines are almost completely separate: one requiring safety with an element of speed, and the other requiring speed with due regard for safety. The emphasis is entirely different.
Get a race instructor if you want to race, but get an Approved Driving Instructor for the road, with a suitably qualified Instructor to teach at more advanced levels. Get a 4x4 instructor if you want to go off road and get a bus instructor if you want to drive buses. Get the best person for the job and do not attempt to cross the divide by employing a plumber to fix your wiring, unless he/she is fully qualified in both trades.
Race driving and road driving are almost entirely different skill sets. Keep them separate.
Firstly, road driving and race driving are almost completely different, having only the basic tools in common: the car and most of its components. Leonardo's brush has a lot in common with what might be used to redecorate your house, but employing an artist for window frames; skirting boards, etc. would be like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with Dulux. Whilst there is overlap, with both skills demanding something from the other domain, the emphasis is as different as using a pen for writing a diary for self reflection, to writing a technical paper for publication in Scientific American.
Would you choose an IAM examiner to teach racing techniques? Or Michael Schumacher to get your daughter through her 'L' test? Whilst there is an overlap, these disciplines are almost completely separate: one requiring safety with an element of speed, and the other requiring speed with due regard for safety. The emphasis is entirely different.
Get a race instructor if you want to race, but get an Approved Driving Instructor for the road, with a suitably qualified Instructor to teach at more advanced levels. Get a 4x4 instructor if you want to go off road and get a bus instructor if you want to drive buses. Get the best person for the job and do not attempt to cross the divide by employing a plumber to fix your wiring, unless he/she is fully qualified in both trades.
Race driving and road driving are almost entirely different skill sets. Keep them separate.
Interesting post. I have been a professional racing driver and instructed at the Brands hatch racing school at the time. I race now but not professionally. I am not sure whether being a racing driver can help. A Pro or semi pro driver's skills are that he has the skills to drive a vehicle at the limit of adhesion whilst having the spare mental capacity to think, plan and make many other decisions at the same time. If there is a loss of grip, he will be able to evaluate the cause and trim the car with the throttle, brake or steering to maximise what grip he has whilst at the same time evaluating the cause of the grip's loss and thus how to mitigate on a longer term basis. If he is unable to mitigate the grip loss, we will know his potential impact point and try to adjust that point of impact to minimise potential damage or injury. These skills will obviously help any driver but teaching them will take a very long time and they need to be taught on the race track and not the road and as such these skills are not cheaply learned. Given the probability that it is impractical to impart these skills to a road driver, I think that I would go with the concensus of the views on this thread and feel that unless a driver specifically wished to increase his ability to understand the micro dynamics of chasis behavious and hone his limit driving skills to the level where he has spare capacity to react to other situations at the same time he would be better advised to use the services of a road based instructor.
cosicave said:
I hope I will be forgiven for setting aside some of the discussion by addressing jags183's original question directly.
Firstly, road driving and race driving are almost completely different, having only the basic tools in common: the car and most of its components. Leonardo's brush has a lot in common with what might be used to redecorate your house, but employing an artist for window frames; skirting boards, etc. would be like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with Dulux. Whilst there is overlap, with both skills demanding something from the other domain, the emphasis is as different as using a pen for writing a diary for self reflection, to writing a technical paper for publication in Scientific American.
Would you choose an IAM examiner to teach racing techniques? Or Michael Schumacher to get your daughter through her 'L' test? Whilst there is an overlap, these disciplines are almost completely separate: one requiring safety with an element of speed, and the other requiring speed with due regard for safety. The emphasis is entirely different.
Get a race instructor if you want to race, but get an Approved Driving Instructor for the road, with a suitably qualified Instructor to teach at more advanced levels. Get a 4x4 instructor if you want to go off road and get a bus instructor if you want to drive buses. Get the best person for the job and do not attempt to cross the divide by employing a plumber to fix your wiring, unless he/she is fully qualified in both trades.
Race driving and road driving are almost entirely different skill sets. Keep them separate.
What he saidFirstly, road driving and race driving are almost completely different, having only the basic tools in common: the car and most of its components. Leonardo's brush has a lot in common with what might be used to redecorate your house, but employing an artist for window frames; skirting boards, etc. would be like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with Dulux. Whilst there is overlap, with both skills demanding something from the other domain, the emphasis is as different as using a pen for writing a diary for self reflection, to writing a technical paper for publication in Scientific American.
Would you choose an IAM examiner to teach racing techniques? Or Michael Schumacher to get your daughter through her 'L' test? Whilst there is an overlap, these disciplines are almost completely separate: one requiring safety with an element of speed, and the other requiring speed with due regard for safety. The emphasis is entirely different.
Get a race instructor if you want to race, but get an Approved Driving Instructor for the road, with a suitably qualified Instructor to teach at more advanced levels. Get a 4x4 instructor if you want to go off road and get a bus instructor if you want to drive buses. Get the best person for the job and do not attempt to cross the divide by employing a plumber to fix your wiring, unless he/she is fully qualified in both trades.
Race driving and road driving are almost entirely different skill sets. Keep them separate.
thiscocks said:
cosicave said:
I hope I will be forgiven for setting aside some of the discussion by addressing jags183's original question directly.
Firstly, road driving and race driving are almost completely different, having only the basic tools in common: the car and most of its components. Leonardo's brush has a lot in common with what might be used to redecorate your house, but employing an artist for window frames; skirting boards, etc. would be like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with Dulux. Whilst there is overlap, with both skills demanding something from the other domain, the emphasis is as different as using a pen for writing a diary for self reflection, to writing a technical paper for publication in Scientific American.
Would you choose an IAM examiner to teach racing techniques? Or Michael Schumacher to get your daughter through her 'L' test? Whilst there is an overlap, these disciplines are almost completely separate: one requiring safety with an element of speed, and the other requiring speed with due regard for safety. The emphasis is entirely different.
Get a race instructor if you want to race, but get an Approved Driving Instructor for the road, with a suitably qualified Instructor to teach at more advanced levels. Get a 4x4 instructor if you want to go off road and get a bus instructor if you want to drive buses. Get the best person for the job and do not attempt to cross the divide by employing a plumber to fix your wiring, unless he/she is fully qualified in both trades.
Race driving and road driving are almost entirely different skill sets. Keep them separate.
What he saidFirstly, road driving and race driving are almost completely different, having only the basic tools in common: the car and most of its components. Leonardo's brush has a lot in common with what might be used to redecorate your house, but employing an artist for window frames; skirting boards, etc. would be like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with Dulux. Whilst there is overlap, with both skills demanding something from the other domain, the emphasis is as different as using a pen for writing a diary for self reflection, to writing a technical paper for publication in Scientific American.
Would you choose an IAM examiner to teach racing techniques? Or Michael Schumacher to get your daughter through her 'L' test? Whilst there is an overlap, these disciplines are almost completely separate: one requiring safety with an element of speed, and the other requiring speed with due regard for safety. The emphasis is entirely different.
Get a race instructor if you want to race, but get an Approved Driving Instructor for the road, with a suitably qualified Instructor to teach at more advanced levels. Get a 4x4 instructor if you want to go off road and get a bus instructor if you want to drive buses. Get the best person for the job and do not attempt to cross the divide by employing a plumber to fix your wiring, unless he/she is fully qualified in both trades.
Race driving and road driving are almost entirely different skill sets. Keep them separate.
What's often forgotten is that advanced road driving is a bunch of skills to learn to drive more safely. Often this is based around what's convenient in a short space of time, which certainly applies to government funded police training for example. It's not cost effective to spend ten years learning car control for the small benefit it might give you in road driving. If someone has happened to have put this time and effort in, then I don't see why it would make them a worse road coach, and if anything, perhaps better than that butcher/accountant?
A thread on here recently about driving on the limit reminded me just how many advanced road drivers learn what's necessary about certain things and don't ever take it further - the level of ignorance about even what "the limit" is shocked me on that thread. Most people seem to think it's some magical speed that you reach where suddenly the car loses control and spins, like driving too fast in the snow
I was pratting about in the snow (off road) last night and no, it's nothing at all like driving on or over the limit on a dry or wet race track or indeed a road...I'm a trainer by profession, and have also received training in a variety of different sports (I like trying new things), and I can assure you that learning the ropes to be a trainer and being obsessed with and truly dedicated to something in a previous life are very different things. The best sailing instructor I've had was a very high level of racer in the past. I'm a beginner, and nothing he'd learnt in racing was at all applicable to my basic level of course but he'd lived and breathed sailing since a young age and was obviously obsessed with the intricacies of it for most of his life. This really showed through and he had a passion and a deep understanding which made one hell of a difference to the other people I've "learnt" from. The same applies to driving - it's not the speed a racing driver is capable of, but the attitude and depth of ability/understanding that makes even the most basic of training or skills seem just "different" - and in my opinion, better.
I'm not saying that a road coach can't be this deeply into what he's doing, of course they can, but actually saying that a former professional racing driver who's been turning a steering wheel competively since the age of 5 wouldn't make a good road driving instructor sounds rather foolish to me.
If a race driver (or former race driver) has done the necessary training to teach at other levels, of course it will not be foolish to employ him / her.
There's nothing to stop a plumber also training as an electrician. And if you electrician happens to be both, then great! - You're certainly not losing out and may get a few extra benefits.
I am sure (and certainly hope) that my point about different skill sets is not lost here.
Get the right person for the job. But if you're lucky enough to get someone who has extra skills in a different discipline: GREAT!
There's nothing to stop a plumber also training as an electrician. And if you electrician happens to be both, then great! - You're certainly not losing out and may get a few extra benefits.
I am sure (and certainly hope) that my point about different skill sets is not lost here.
Get the right person for the job. But if you're lucky enough to get someone who has extra skills in a different discipline: GREAT!
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