Any ways to improve your perception of feedback?
Discussion
I'm not talking about the car or the tyres here, but as a driver; are there any ways - mental or physical - to develop your feel for slip angles? It seems some drivers have a far more finely tuned perception of what's actually happening at the wheels of a given car than others.
I've got a pretty good grasp of vehicle dynamics and the way tyres work so I'm after practical tips rather than academic stuff. For example, one thing that struck me recently was that I tend to let my arms hang off the steering under there own weight. If I make a conscious attempt to support the weight with my upper arms it seems to loosen up my lower arms and wrists. It might be purely psychological, but, on the face of it, this seems to improve my sensitivity to changes in the steering. Any similar tips or exercises?
I've got a pretty good grasp of vehicle dynamics and the way tyres work so I'm after practical tips rather than academic stuff. For example, one thing that struck me recently was that I tend to let my arms hang off the steering under there own weight. If I make a conscious attempt to support the weight with my upper arms it seems to loosen up my lower arms and wrists. It might be purely psychological, but, on the face of it, this seems to improve my sensitivity to changes in the steering. Any similar tips or exercises?
This is a very interesting subject. I had a drive recently on the public road with someone from this forum who I thought was a supremely capable and obviously very experienced road driver. When we chatted about feel for where the limit was, I was quite surprised to find that he found it hard to say something akin to "60% grip front, 50% rear" at any given point, which is something that's always come naturally to me. Like many people no doubt, I've never really had this stage where I'm not sure about an unfamiliar car for a while; in the first corner I will feel how it drives, and then in the second corner I can reach the point of peak grip (what some people call "the limit") straight away. I've frequently driven cars on track that are new to me, and can be up to the limit by the second corner, although obviously it takes a while to work out the car's strengths and weaknesses to achieve a fast lap.
In terms of steering feel like the OP mentioned, I find a loose grip on the wheel helps enormously. It's your palms that pick up the feel, so I find a nice relaxed grip with your hands covering plenty of the wheel helps. Gloves are a disaster for this, and I only wear them for safety reasons when racing (usually mandated by the rules), and certainly not in a normal road car on a track day.
Everything else I think is just inner ear sensitivity and balance, which is very hard to describe!
In terms of steering feel like the OP mentioned, I find a loose grip on the wheel helps enormously. It's your palms that pick up the feel, so I find a nice relaxed grip with your hands covering plenty of the wheel helps. Gloves are a disaster for this, and I only wear them for safety reasons when racing (usually mandated by the rules), and certainly not in a normal road car on a track day.
Everything else I think is just inner ear sensitivity and balance, which is very hard to describe!
RobM77 said:
I've frequently driven cars on track that are new to me, and can be up to the limit by the second corner
If you haven't spun it, you don't know where the limit is.This is written half as a joke... but only half
I would say I also get very quickly comfortable with how fast I feel I can drive a car - but with anything vaguely capable, that's to do with my limits, not the car's.
defblade said:
RobM77 said:
I've frequently driven cars on track that are new to me, and can be up to the limit by the second corner
If you haven't spun it, you don't know where the limit is.This is written half as a joke... but only half
I would say I also get very quickly comfortable with how fast I feel I can drive a car - but with anything vaguely capable, that's to do with my limits, not the car's.
What most people call "the limit" is the point of peak grip, which is a million miles away from a spin. I've been racing ten years and have spun about four times What a great question!
As others have said, finding the limit requires being prepared to go through it. A gentle grip on the wheel has already be mentioned - although I would not use the word "loose". Be secure but gentle with the wheel. - by all means put fingerprints in the plasticine, but do not squeeze it through your fingers.
However, there is a very practical solution which I will mention:
Look as far ahead as possible, even when you begin to feel the car sliding. Look beyond the apex of the corner, right through to the exit, even on approach to it. (This may go against your natural survival instincts). When it begins to slide, do not 'fight' it; do not try to 'correct it' as soon as possible, but let it come back to you gracefully, whilst you focus on where you want to go.
Keep looking at where you want to go (not what you want to miss), and keep a gentle touch with your hands and feet, in spite of the instinct to tighten up and lift off; because as soon as you tighten, you lose feel, and as soon as you lift off, you have a sudden weight transfer to deal with, where the front wheels will suddenly 'bite' you.
If you have any difficulty in applying this technique, book yourself a session on a skid-pan and remember what I've told you. Unfortunately this essential aspect of car control is often overlooked by the instructor, so remember it from here!
As others have said, finding the limit requires being prepared to go through it. A gentle grip on the wheel has already be mentioned - although I would not use the word "loose". Be secure but gentle with the wheel. - by all means put fingerprints in the plasticine, but do not squeeze it through your fingers.
However, there is a very practical solution which I will mention:
Look as far ahead as possible, even when you begin to feel the car sliding. Look beyond the apex of the corner, right through to the exit, even on approach to it. (This may go against your natural survival instincts). When it begins to slide, do not 'fight' it; do not try to 'correct it' as soon as possible, but let it come back to you gracefully, whilst you focus on where you want to go.
Keep looking at where you want to go (not what you want to miss), and keep a gentle touch with your hands and feet, in spite of the instinct to tighten up and lift off; because as soon as you tighten, you lose feel, and as soon as you lift off, you have a sudden weight transfer to deal with, where the front wheels will suddenly 'bite' you.
If you have any difficulty in applying this technique, book yourself a session on a skid-pan and remember what I've told you. Unfortunately this essential aspect of car control is often overlooked by the instructor, so remember it from here!
In response to that I would like to add that the limit is not a line that you go through; it looks like this:
As slip angles increase at the front, you'll gradually need more steering to hold your line, and as this happens at the rear, you'll gradually need less and less steering. As both happen together, the direction your pointing will gradually start to be different from the direction you're travelling. The steepness of the above curve and how gradually these transitions occur depends on the tyres and the surface: typically low grip situations such as a road car on gravel have a very shallow curve (like a shallow hill), and high grip situations like a racing car on slicks have a much steeper curve (looking more like the Matterhorn). In the wet, the curve peaks and drops faster too.
The only time that things will happen really suddenly is if your inputs are in some way jerky, the road is very bumpy and your car's damping's not up to it, or you cross a patch of low grip. Even then though, you'll usually find yourself shifting up the curve somewhat, rather than flying off it into a spin or sudden front end break-away. Mid engined single seaters at high speed are the only cars that I've driven that have the potential to move around the curve very suddenly requiring fast and accurate movements; most other things are far more gentle. Given that this is the Advanced Driving forum, I'm assuming we're mainly talking about road cars on road tyres, which are very slow and gentle in this respect and, as I started my post by saying, the limit is not a line, especially in these sorts of cars.
edited to add "off topic" symbol - apologies to the OP.
As slip angles increase at the front, you'll gradually need more steering to hold your line, and as this happens at the rear, you'll gradually need less and less steering. As both happen together, the direction your pointing will gradually start to be different from the direction you're travelling. The steepness of the above curve and how gradually these transitions occur depends on the tyres and the surface: typically low grip situations such as a road car on gravel have a very shallow curve (like a shallow hill), and high grip situations like a racing car on slicks have a much steeper curve (looking more like the Matterhorn). In the wet, the curve peaks and drops faster too.
The only time that things will happen really suddenly is if your inputs are in some way jerky, the road is very bumpy and your car's damping's not up to it, or you cross a patch of low grip. Even then though, you'll usually find yourself shifting up the curve somewhat, rather than flying off it into a spin or sudden front end break-away. Mid engined single seaters at high speed are the only cars that I've driven that have the potential to move around the curve very suddenly requiring fast and accurate movements; most other things are far more gentle. Given that this is the Advanced Driving forum, I'm assuming we're mainly talking about road cars on road tyres, which are very slow and gentle in this respect and, as I started my post by saying, the limit is not a line, especially in these sorts of cars.
edited to add "off topic" symbol - apologies to the OP.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 16th December 10:43
RobM77 said:
edited to add "off topic" symbol - apologies to the OP.
No worries. Takes me back to my vehicle dynamics lectures at uni. 
The comment above about being smooth with your inputs is very relevant I think. I don't know if there's a tendency to tense up when you initiate a sudden movement, but a smooth (or better still fixed) steering input does seem to help. I know a fixed angle of steering input isn't the best way of controlling a car near the limit of grip (or indeed peak of lateral force
) but as an exercise at low slip angles it's quite interesting to try holding one steering angle through the whole turn. I'm sure it helps with feedback - maybe it's just easier for your brain to filter the information coming back when less is going out in terms of movement... The same principle would of course apply to smooth correction as opposed to jerky movement.On a slightly O/T point I tried a single seater on a banked oval recently and it was very challenging mentally. The disorientation caused by having vertical G mixed up with the lateral and longitudinal accelerations you normally balance the car with is immense. It made going round a corner - normally quite an intuitive action - far more difficult. The reason I mention this now is that it shows how familiar actions become more difficult when there's a lot going on for your brain to cope with. Or maybe that's just me.
Chris71 said:
RobM77 said:
edited to add "off topic" symbol - apologies to the OP.
No worries. Takes me back to my vehicle dynamics lectures at uni. The comment above about being smooth with your inputs is very relevant I think. I don't know if there's a tendency to tense up when you initiate a sudden movement, but a smooth (or better still fixed) steering input does seem to help. I know a fixed angle of steering input isn't the best way of controlling a car near the limit of grip (or indeed peak of lateral force
) but as an exercise at low slip angles it's quite interesting to try holding one steering angle through the whole turn. I'm sure it helps with feedback - maybe it's just easier for your brain to filter the information coming back when less is going out in terms of movement... The same principle would of course apply to smooth correction as opposed to jerky movement.A similar thing happens with a tyre - if you apply a gently increasing force, the tyre will get to its faster cornering speed, but the second you add a pertubation such as a jerky control input or a bump, the tyre will start sliding away from you. Crucially, to get it back to the same situation you started in you'll have to back off quite a bit, which loses you time. The same applies under braking - ther reason locked wheels don't stop fast is not necessarily because of the locked wheels, but mainly because of what you need to do to unlock them.
Finally, I need to point that the difference between the stapler and the tyre is that the stapler is mainly subject to just two types of friction - static and dynamic. It has a frictional value when still, and one when moving. The tyre is more complicated than that because it's made of soft rubber, and it has a range of frictional values, as shown by the curve I posted above. Note the shape of the curve too and how it is not symmetrical - that's crucial. This is why the limit is not a line you must or mustn't cross, but actually a zone. The highest frictional value is at the peak of the curve, and for the purposes of a driver is a place they must stay to get the fastest lap time. For a road car, the zone is very wide indeed, and in my opinion is a perfectly safe place to be. For a racing car on slicks, the zone is much smaller, but the extra feedback such a car offers in my opinion goes a long way to offsetting this aspect.
What a good contribution that is from RobM77, who has explained the technicalities behind the philosophy of smooth input - and hence the requirement to be gentle enough to 'feel it'!
I will use a similar analogy to the stapler; another object commonly found in the office desk: an eraser (rubber). Since this eraser will represent a vehicle of constant weight, your objective should be to keep a constant downward pressure throughout. Joke Note: road users can call this the "pull-push" method, whilst racing drivers may prefer to call it "rotational"
In this exercise, you will discover the importance of gentleness; in order to get the best 'feel'
The next time you go for a drive in your car, you will have four black rubbers, all of which should be allowed to rotate, all of the time, (never becoming 'erasers', so don't squeeze the brake pedal too hard!). Notice that steering affects the relative weights acting downward over each wheel ('outside' wheels are supporting more of the vehicle's weight). Similarly, the forces of acceleration and braking will alter the distribution of weight.
On a track, a racing driver can (and should) make use of these shifts in weight distribution, in order to maximise tyre grip. (Remember that just like your card exercises, rubber with more downward force increases friction with the surface).
Oh. I almost forgot: In a previous post, I mentioned the importance of looking well ahead. So unlike the exercises, this time keep your eyes open!
Have fun but always be thoughtful…
I will use a similar analogy to the stapler; another object commonly found in the office desk: an eraser (rubber). Since this eraser will represent a vehicle of constant weight, your objective should be to keep a constant downward pressure throughout. Joke Note: road users can call this the "pull-push" method, whilst racing drivers may prefer to call it "rotational"
In this exercise, you will discover the importance of gentleness; in order to get the best 'feel'
- Hold the eraser between thumb and one finger, gently resting it on a piece of card (which is securely in place on a glass-topped table) so that only it is making contact. A shiny, embossed Christmas Card will be ideal, especially if it has glitter. Open the card to reveal the message in side (on it's non-shiny, non-glitter surface) and make sure it's not been written in pencil . The fingers, hand and arm which hold the rubber should not be touching anything, all the way up to the shoulder.
- IMPORTANT: Close your eyes - just like your passengers .
- 1: Now, gripping just firmly enough to prevent the eraser from rotating, very slowly pull it towards you, across the card surface at a constant speed. Notice your resistance change as you come across the centre-fold… , all the way to the edge and off the card, onto the glass surface beneath. Notice every tiny change in resistance (even your heart-beat can affect this!). Now pushing away, do it in the opposite direction, keeping that constant downward pressure.
- 2: Repeat the exercise, but this time squeeze the eraser very firmly between finger and thumb. Notice the difference in 'feel' especially as you transition across the fold, and from card to glass.
- 3: Do it again, but this time tighten and loosen your grip several times as it slides, squeezing and relaxing - tricky to do without altering the downward pressure !
- Repeat steps 1 to 3 with a very strong, deliberately tense arm all the way up to your shoulder.
- And do that one again, varying the muscle tension in your arm as much as you can! (This is likely to cause you to leave the surface when repeating 3 ).
- Now open your eyes and turn the card over…
The next time you go for a drive in your car, you will have four black rubbers, all of which should be allowed to rotate, all of the time, (never becoming 'erasers', so don't squeeze the brake pedal too hard!). Notice that steering affects the relative weights acting downward over each wheel ('outside' wheels are supporting more of the vehicle's weight). Similarly, the forces of acceleration and braking will alter the distribution of weight.
On a track, a racing driver can (and should) make use of these shifts in weight distribution, in order to maximise tyre grip. (Remember that just like your card exercises, rubber with more downward force increases friction with the surface).
Oh. I almost forgot: In a previous post, I mentioned the importance of looking well ahead. So unlike the exercises, this time keep your eyes open!
Have fun but always be thoughtful…
Edited by cosicave on Thursday 16th December 20:30
One other thing about my exercise above:
If you completed the exercise correctly, you should have noticed how various demands upon the brain make consistency difficult. There is no simple solution other than practice, practice, practice…
As Pavlov went to great lengths to prove, repetition will alter brain processing, making any given task simpler until it becomes almost instinctive. Indeed, some might even say that it is possible to 'over-write' some pre-existing instincts, particularly those associated with the 'learned behaviours' required of any practical skill (such as driving).
If you completed the exercise correctly, you should have noticed how various demands upon the brain make consistency difficult. There is no simple solution other than practice, practice, practice…
As Pavlov went to great lengths to prove, repetition will alter brain processing, making any given task simpler until it becomes almost instinctive. Indeed, some might even say that it is possible to 'over-write' some pre-existing instincts, particularly those associated with the 'learned behaviours' required of any practical skill (such as driving).
Chris71 said:
I'm not talking about the car or the tyres here, but as a driver; are there any ways - mental or physical - to develop your feel for slip angles? It seems some drivers have a far more finely tuned perception of what's actually happening at the wheels of a given car than others.
Learn to ride one of these:
Interesting question and some good answers. Not many people are aware of the differences between static and dynamic friction.
I too am quite well aware of the theory and enjoy putting it into practice, but don't have the time/funds to do car track days or racing.
Joking apart, riding a motorbike, even on the road, is extremely involving though, especially in sub-optimal conditions. A loose grip, smooth application of throttle and brakes and good observation make a huge difference to the behaviour of a bike.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 16th December 21:02
MC Bodge said:
…Joking apart, riding a motorbike, even on the road, is extremely involving though, especially in sub-optimal conditions. A loose grip, smooth application of throttle and brakes and good observation make a huge difference to the behaviour of a bike.
I hesitated to mention this very same thing. Of course it is only practical if Chris has one but people often fail to see the importance of 'balance' when driving a car, and how it affects tyre grip.All of it is learning to go with, rather than fighting nature. 'Go with the flow' whether it be car, bike, skiing, running or walking. similarly, the faster one goes, the further ahead one must focus: for this affords more brain-processing time.
MC Bodge said:
Joking apart, riding a motorbike, even on the road, is extremely involving though, especially in sub-optimal conditions. A loose grip, smooth application of throttle and brakes and good observation make a huge difference to the behaviour of a bike.
I do actually have some limited experience of riding motorcycles from my teens and I'm also an avid mountain biker, which - despite slower speeds - is even more dependent on surface changes. I'd say that's great for reading the road and developing balance, but I'm not sure it's directly comparable to feeling slip angles through a car's steering system. To be fair I guess it might be different with sticky tyres on a sports bike (even my motorbikes were trail bikes...)I too am a keen mountain biker and that was going to be my next suggestion.
The good thing about mtb is that you can push your limits away from the public road and without bothering anybody.
Finding the limits of driving cars is difficult if you are limited to the roads.
ps. I'm not sure how accurate (or meaningful) being able to declare that one is "at 40/50/60% grip" really is in a fairly non-linear process.
The good thing about mtb is that you can push your limits away from the public road and without bothering anybody.
Finding the limits of driving cars is difficult if you are limited to the roads.
ps. I'm not sure how accurate (or meaningful) being able to declare that one is "at 40/50/60% grip" really is in a fairly non-linear process.
MC Bodge said:
I too am a keen mountain biker and that was going to be my next suggestion.
The good thing about mtb is that you can push your limits away from the public road and without bothering anybody.
Finding the limits of driving cars is difficult if you are limited to the roads.
ps. I'm not sure how accurate (or meaningful) being able to declare that one is "at 40/50/60% grip" really is in a fairly non-linear process.
Bicycles are an interesting comparison to cars actually. You can't tell what percentage of the limit you're at, or at least I can't. Off road on a bike I'm either sliding or I'm not, and on the road I'm either cycling normally or I'm on my face sliding down the road The good thing about mtb is that you can push your limits away from the public road and without bothering anybody.
Finding the limits of driving cars is difficult if you are limited to the roads.
ps. I'm not sure how accurate (or meaningful) being able to declare that one is "at 40/50/60% grip" really is in a fairly non-linear process.
I presume this is because the tyres on a bike are so hard and so thin that it's just like the stapler in my example above - just static and dynamic friction. With a car tyre, because it's a spectrum of grip on offer you can feel where you are on that slip/grip curve.It's interesting you should mention the non-linear aspect of the car's slip/grip curve actually. I've always suspected it's the curve going non-linear that one feels in a car. When you're at the limit, obviously you're detecing whether the curve is rising or falling, and when it reaches that peak point.
I'm confused by your final comment about doubting the "accuracy" or "meaning" of knowing the percentage of the limit one is at. Accuracy? - Well, I've never been surprised, unless I've hit ice or a diesel spill - you can test this system's accuracy all the time, and yes, it's completely accurate. It's how I drive - it's 80% of my ability as a track driver is detecting this curve and making use of it - I'd be utterly rubbish without it! Meaning? It makes you a lot safer as a driver. I'd probably half my speed on the road (and track!) if I couldn't tell where the limit was - for me that would be akin to paddling my kayak without knowing the point at which it tips over; I'd probably be too scared to do anything other than potter back and forth on a flat river!
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 17th December 11:12
Go and do something that will put you at the grip limit much more often. Go rallying. Buy a Morris Minor. Go rallying in the Morris Minor you just bought. The tyres we have on modern cars these days don't have a progressive breakaway, it's pretty much grip-grip-grip-spin. On old cars with narrow tall tyres, you feel the sidewall load up, and it's really easy to hold it on the limit. Whether that's because the limit is at 8mph or not is another matter.
The tyres we have on modern cars these days don't have a progressive breakaway, it's pretty much grip-grip-grip-spin. On old cars with narrow tall tyres, you feel the sidewall load up, and it's really easy to hold it on the limit. Whether that's because the limit is at 8mph or not is another matter. MC Bodge said:
Yes, but when you say "80%", do you mean
a) If you think you can take a corner at a a maximum of 60mph, at 80% you would take it at exactly 48mph?
b) That one (which one?) or more of the tyres is at 80% of their threshold, which may or not equate to 80% of potential speed?
Sort of both, in that you can how far each of the four tyres is up that curve, although obviously as a driver the main focus through a bend is just on front (LF & RF) vs rear (LR & RR) grip, unless you're exiting a corner, in which case you want to get the power down as well as possible and are concious of how the diff is dividing out the power (all the cars I've ever raced have been open diffed, so this is a big concern when accelerating out of a bend). Note that when you're cornering, the outside wheels do most of the work anyway - motor racing has often been described as a "carving" sport, like surfing or snowboarding. I like that analogy.a) If you think you can take a corner at a a maximum of 60mph, at 80% you would take it at exactly 48mph?
b) That one (which one?) or more of the tyres is at 80% of their threshold, which may or not equate to 80% of potential speed?
I'm surprised at some of the comments here on feeling the limit in this way, to me this is just how one drives cars; it's the most predominate thing that I feel (and anyone feels, surely?) when in any car. Taking it away would be like trying to run an obstacle course with your eyes closed, or sing with your fingers in your ears.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 17th December 12:28
davepoth said:
Go and do something that will put you at the grip limit much more often. Go rallying. Buy a Morris Minor. Go rallying in the Morris Minor you just bought. The tyres we have on modern cars these days don't have a progressive breakaway, it's pretty much grip-grip-grip-spin. On old cars with narrow tall tyres, you feel the sidewall load up, and it's really easy to hold it on the limit. Whether that's because the limit is at 8mph or not is another matter.
My TVR S3 was good for that. Very low geared steering and a lot of castor combined with much taller tyres than you'd normally get on a performance car and relatively small tyre area. Believe it or not the slip angle feedback was better than my old MX5. The tyres we have on modern cars these days don't have a progressive breakaway, it's pretty much grip-grip-grip-spin. On old cars with narrow tall tyres, you feel the sidewall load up, and it's really easy to hold it on the limit. Whether that's because the limit is at 8mph or not is another matter. Failing that, back home I have access to this:
And, if it ever gets rebuilt, a relative of this:
Also on a similar note to the mountain biking I'm a keen skier, which I suspect probably helps with balance too. Factoring all this into account it's amazing I'm still such a mediocre driver!
Robm77, I an aware of what you are trying to say, but your very objective-sounding "80%" actually sounds quite subjective the way that you describe it.
Of course, every driver has their own idea of the limits of their car (or their driving), but they probably have different ways to express it.
I'm certainly not professing to be an expert, just giving my view.
Of course, every driver has their own idea of the limits of their car (or their driving), but they probably have different ways to express it.
I'm certainly not professing to be an expert, just giving my view.
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