Mid Engined Car - Any Advice?
Discussion
Just bought myself a mk.2 MR2 (in the Reader's Cars section if you're interested). I've owned plenty of rear wheel drive cars before but never anything mid engined so was wondering if there was any specific advice or things to watch for, especially in this weather?
I should point out it's the non turbo so not exactly a tyre shredding monster and it does have the later, wider, tyres which apparently make it a lot more stable. I have however read a lot about these cars swapping ends with very little warning in the wet so is it just a case of taking extra care? Thanks!
I should point out it's the non turbo so not exactly a tyre shredding monster and it does have the later, wider, tyres which apparently make it a lot more stable. I have however read a lot about these cars swapping ends with very little warning in the wet so is it just a case of taking extra care? Thanks!
Go careful with it, especially in this weather. I found mine pretty good in the white stuff and you get more traction as the weight is nearer the driven wheels. Get used to it and enjoy, but always have respect for the car, know it's limits and yours. Might be a good idea to take it to a track and get a feel for it and explore/find limits. When it goes, it goes! I had a mk II rev 3 turbo which caught me out once with pretty bad results.
A fantastic step into MR ownership, enjoy! Don't skimp on tyres.
A fantastic step into MR ownership, enjoy! Don't skimp on tyres.
Edited by IAM Joe on Saturday 11th December 23:31
The "holy crap I'm going backwards" reputation was down to slightly suspect (sporty??) Suspension settings on the first revisions of these cars, along with the turbo engines. They toned down much more later on in life.
Make sure your tyres are up to scratch and I'd recommend a geometry check as well - They do seem very sensitive to change, and if they've had an arm or something bent it could lead to nasty handling traits. Same as any car really, but highlighted by the mid engined chassis. They are also very sensitive to tyre pressures - it's easy to over inflate the fronts, which in my experience leads to understeer which is quite disconcerting.
Just take it easy. They're not firebreathing monsters, and they're not going to bite you unless you poke it with a big stick. Until you're used to it and the weather improves, just make sure all 4 wheels are poitning the same way before giving it the beans. Build up gradually as you get to know the car better, but be aware there's not a lot of catching them when they start to slide! I've got a 50% sucess rate myself. Lost it at Silverstone, caught it at Brands (but got black flagged for fishtailing whilst juggling the steering wheel....) Never lost it on the road though.
They have very progressive oversteer as the rear wheel starts to lose grip, it tells you for ages that it's about to let go so unless you're not listening, or hit ice/diesel, they're quite benign.
Make sure your tyres are up to scratch and I'd recommend a geometry check as well - They do seem very sensitive to change, and if they've had an arm or something bent it could lead to nasty handling traits. Same as any car really, but highlighted by the mid engined chassis. They are also very sensitive to tyre pressures - it's easy to over inflate the fronts, which in my experience leads to understeer which is quite disconcerting.
Just take it easy. They're not firebreathing monsters, and they're not going to bite you unless you poke it with a big stick. Until you're used to it and the weather improves, just make sure all 4 wheels are poitning the same way before giving it the beans. Build up gradually as you get to know the car better, but be aware there's not a lot of catching them when they start to slide! I've got a 50% sucess rate myself. Lost it at Silverstone, caught it at Brands (but got black flagged for fishtailing whilst juggling the steering wheel....) Never lost it on the road though.
They have very progressive oversteer as the rear wheel starts to lose grip, it tells you for ages that it's about to let go so unless you're not listening, or hit ice/diesel, they're quite benign. Good post from WeirdNeville.
The biggest difference with a mid-engined car is that it is so much more sensitive to everything, particularly as you take the speeds up. A track day would be a very worthwhile investment to see just how sensitive it is as you approach the limits of tyre grip.
Look as far ahead as you can, ESPECIALLY if she begins to slide; that way your steering input will be more natural and you will not have to think about it. Just look well ahead to the place you want to go; NEVER at the thing you want to miss!
(Edit: woops! I mis-spelt Neville's name)
The biggest difference with a mid-engined car is that it is so much more sensitive to everything, particularly as you take the speeds up. A track day would be a very worthwhile investment to see just how sensitive it is as you approach the limits of tyre grip.
Look as far ahead as you can, ESPECIALLY if she begins to slide; that way your steering input will be more natural and you will not have to think about it. Just look well ahead to the place you want to go; NEVER at the thing you want to miss!
(Edit: woops! I mis-spelt Neville's name)
Edited by cosicave on Sunday 12th December 04:50
The only 'moments' I have had in my MR2 are when I have come into a damp corner too hot and had to come off the throttle mid corner. The change in load from rear to front has pushed the back end out, and with the engine behind you, there is obviously quite a bit to catch, and not long to do it. Anyway, you soon learn how the MR2 handles, and in my experience you want to be keep the car stable by keeping some throttle on mid corner, even when sometimes, it feels like you should be on the brakes.
In the dry however, in NA form (as mine is), the car handles pretty sweet and you have to really, really poke it (as has been said above) to get out of shape. I am running a set of supra 16" on mine however, so have got a bit more grip to play with.
To sum up, they really are pretty sweet handling cars. Get to know it over a few weeks, and build on that. They give you loads and loads of info before they bite, and as an NA, the bite is fairly small.
Enjoy (",)
They are great cars, i did mange to spin mine a couple of times but it was always driver error or a "here lads, watch this!" moment (or oil on the road 
).
Good tyres, check the pressures often and don't show off until you know the car. In the dry when they do go they go fairly quickly, but they take a bit of provoking. In the wet you need to adjust to conditions. I second the comment about snow driving, they are great fun and have surprising levels of grip. Oh and are surprisning capable on mud/light off roading and they can drive through standing water deeper than the wheels.
Enjoy, i am a little jealous and it may motivate me to get mine working again.
).Good tyres, check the pressures often and don't show off until you know the car. In the dry when they do go they go fairly quickly, but they take a bit of provoking. In the wet you need to adjust to conditions. I second the comment about snow driving, they are great fun and have surprising levels of grip. Oh and are surprisning capable on mud/light off roading and they can drive through standing water deeper than the wheels.
Enjoy, i am a little jealous and it may motivate me to get mine working again.
Should be nothing to worry about on the road, avoid ham-fisted driving styles and rubbish tyres.
Tyres on these make a huge difference so a good set of tyres on the rear is important, and at the right pressures.
I've had a few of them (mk1,mk2 and mk3) and raced mk2's in the MR2 series including in the rain at Brands and Oulton (in a rev 1 / rev3) so I know what they are like to drive ie great fun to drive but you have to remember its mid engined - drive it accordingly. Lifting off mid corner in the wet near the limit is not a good idea.
When they do start to oversteer you can feel it progressively happen, the first bit of slip is fine, but to try and drive it sideways like you might in a typical good rwd car is not easy as the difference between holding a slide or having a big tank slapper - followed by spin is marginal.
An airfield track day is a good place to get a feeling for this (and dont try and test this on the road). In the torrential wet at Oulton park I found it was quite tricky but in the damp at Brands it was easy to play with the level of understeer / oversteer just by progressively on /off the throttle but if you come off the power while applying opposite lock its easy into get a tank slapper.
I took one of my MR2's (a rev 4) on a trackday and to make it more oversteery we put grippy 888's on the front and left its usual road Bridgestones on the rear pumped up to 35 psi - it was great fun like a big go-kart and tought me a lot about driving them, so yes they can be driven a bit sideways.
For the feeling of a mini GT sports car they are brilliant value, they are a bit let down by the handling once you get past 8/10's but thats not really applicable to road use.
Tyres on these make a huge difference so a good set of tyres on the rear is important, and at the right pressures.
I've had a few of them (mk1,mk2 and mk3) and raced mk2's in the MR2 series including in the rain at Brands and Oulton (in a rev 1 / rev3) so I know what they are like to drive ie great fun to drive but you have to remember its mid engined - drive it accordingly. Lifting off mid corner in the wet near the limit is not a good idea.
When they do start to oversteer you can feel it progressively happen, the first bit of slip is fine, but to try and drive it sideways like you might in a typical good rwd car is not easy as the difference between holding a slide or having a big tank slapper - followed by spin is marginal.
An airfield track day is a good place to get a feeling for this (and dont try and test this on the road). In the torrential wet at Oulton park I found it was quite tricky but in the damp at Brands it was easy to play with the level of understeer / oversteer just by progressively on /off the throttle but if you come off the power while applying opposite lock its easy into get a tank slapper.
I took one of my MR2's (a rev 4) on a trackday and to make it more oversteery we put grippy 888's on the front and left its usual road Bridgestones on the rear pumped up to 35 psi - it was great fun like a big go-kart and tought me a lot about driving them, so yes they can be driven a bit sideways.
For the feeling of a mini GT sports car they are brilliant value, they are a bit let down by the handling once you get past 8/10's but thats not really applicable to road use.
I had my first proper track outing in a mid-engined car recently. Admittedly it was in extremely slippery conditions and setup for proper racing drivers not hamfisted idiots like me, but I found it conformed very much to the mid-engined stereotype: Whatever you do, don't lift off or trail the brakes going into a corner!
It probably is a rather extreme example though - an old housemate of mine had a mk2 MR2 as his first performance car and, in the dry at least, that seemed to be far more forgiving. He could get it tucking on lift-off like a FWD hot hatch. There again it is possible he just had a healthy dose of god given talent.
It probably is a rather extreme example though - an old housemate of mine had a mk2 MR2 as his first performance car and, in the dry at least, that seemed to be far more forgiving. He could get it tucking on lift-off like a FWD hot hatch. There again it is possible he just had a healthy dose of god given talent.
I've owned two mid engined cars (mk1 MR2 and currently an Elise), and have recently raced and tested two mid engined race cars quite extensively (see my profile pic for both of the cars). Obviously the weight balance is different, so the natural weight distribution is different, and the location of the mass means that how the throttle affects things is different too. How you neutralise the car on turn-in will be different because you've got a different starting point for the major masses. The biggest negative of course is the low polar moment means the car will rotate more quickly when it starts to spin, and any slightly rearward mass (which most have), will initiate this quicker. By and large though, I prefer mid engined cars - enjoy 
RobM77 said:
I've owned two mid engined cars (mk1 MR2 and currently an Elise), and have recently raced and tested two mid engined race cars quite extensively (see my profile pic for both of the cars). Obviously the weight balance is different, so the natural weight distribution is different, and the location of the mass means that how the throttle affects things is different too. How you neutralise the car on turn-in will be different because you've got a different starting point for the major masses. The biggest negative of course is the low polar moment means the car will rotate more quickly when it starts to spin, and any slightly rearward mass (which most have), will initiate this quicker. By and large though, I prefer mid engined cars - enjoy
+1Mid engine cars are great but they can & will bite you if you take liberties. Quite often they can have what can only be described as a "lump" in the handling - you will think "Oops, its going ...oh no, its not, its alright..." and then bang! Its gone & yr facing the wrong way
All happens faster than you can say "Doh" !!
Edited by IainZ on Thursday 16th December 15:23
IainZ said:
RobM77 said:
I've owned two mid engined cars (mk1 MR2 and currently an Elise), and have recently raced and tested two mid engined race cars quite extensively (see my profile pic for both of the cars). Obviously the weight balance is different, so the natural weight distribution is different, and the location of the mass means that how the throttle affects things is different too. How you neutralise the car on turn-in will be different because you've got a different starting point for the major masses. The biggest negative of course is the low polar moment means the car will rotate more quickly when it starts to spin, and any slightly rearward mass (which most have), will initiate this quicker. By and large though, I prefer mid engined cars - enjoy
+1Mid engine cars are great but they can & will bite you if you take liberties. Quite often they can have what can only be described as a "lump" in the handling - you will think "Oops, its going ...oh no, its not, its alright..." and then bang! Its gone & yr facing the wrong way
All happens faster than you can say "Doh" !!
Edited by IainZ on Thursday 16th December 15:23
I ran an MR2 (2.0, NA) for 18 months with no prior experience of RWD or "sports" cars and had no problems in any normal conditions - only slightly loose handling I experienced was in the slush and very low temperatures around Christmas / New Year of 2009 - but that applied to probably 90% of RWD cars on the road
There are no evil cars - its just how you drive it.
Just be sensible - you've got a reasonable power to weight ratio, wideish tyres and weight over the back end - if you stamp on the power mid corner it will break and spin - if you feed it in / save the hard acceleration for when you're straight and take it steady - you'll be absolutely fine, honestly.
Same applies to lift off oversteer - if you go from top of the rev band and totally lift off, yes, it will wobble. If you feather the throttle, its fine.
People do like to "big up" the reputation of these cars - they're not killers, really.
I found real power band was 4k rpm upwards, so just be concious of this as you come out of a bend.
If you're really worried - get some training. I just did an on/off road advanced driving course and its eye opening. I can now pilot my Chimera in the wet with confidence - I'm no driving hero, its just that training is really bloody good. Feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about who I went out with / what they did.
Be sensible and you'll be fine.
There are no evil cars - its just how you drive it.
Just be sensible - you've got a reasonable power to weight ratio, wideish tyres and weight over the back end - if you stamp on the power mid corner it will break and spin - if you feed it in / save the hard acceleration for when you're straight and take it steady - you'll be absolutely fine, honestly.
Same applies to lift off oversteer - if you go from top of the rev band and totally lift off, yes, it will wobble. If you feather the throttle, its fine.
People do like to "big up" the reputation of these cars - they're not killers, really.
I found real power band was 4k rpm upwards, so just be concious of this as you come out of a bend.
If you're really worried - get some training. I just did an on/off road advanced driving course and its eye opening. I can now pilot my Chimera in the wet with confidence - I'm no driving hero, its just that training is really bloody good. Feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about who I went out with / what they did.
Be sensible and you'll be fine.
Rossco2010 said:
People do like to "big up" the reputation of these cars - they're not killers, really.
Ok, maybe not the N/A's but the turbo is a notorious car for spinning. I know of a fatal crash near where I used to live a few years ago involving a tubby. I nearly died when I crashed mine and one of my friends ended up under a bus in his. Ok, I was a lot younger with less experience but no means a 'bad' driver. A TVR (ar any FR car) is a totally different animal. When the turbo spins up mid corner due to too much right foot and it goes, you're a passenger!I've only driven a N/A for a brief time and they are a lot more predictable.
johnnyboy101 said:
Just want to say be careful. My friend had a near death experience in a mr2 mk3 in damp conditions, and this was caused by an over correction at a mere 30mph. It's also worth point out he has never owned a rwd car before let alone mid engined.
Suspect there was something going wrong to break traction that easily - tyres, way way too much throttle and immediate lift off, oil on road etc.I had a mk1 MR2 and the only time I ever nearly lost the back end was on a wet left handcorner - hit a pothole in the left hand side, car skipped and the car oversteered. Popped back in again with a flick of opposite lock.
As said above, keep it on throttle (but not buried) in the corner to keep it balanced and it'll go round rail-like!
Rossco2010 said:
Same applies to lift off oversteer - if you go from top of the rev band and totally lift off, yes, it will wobble. If you feather the throttle, its fine.
This was going to be my advice. I drive an s2000 which although is FR has a 50:50 weight distribution so has similar charastics to MR. Coming from an FF where lifting off usually has little effect, it's something to consider when you're busy being careful not to powerslide. I noticed this first on curved motorways when you ease off to avoid braking for traffic up ahead, dont just come off the throttle in one quick lift and also on large roundabouts where you are changing speeds at an angle.In the dry its a dream because you would have to be seriously pegging it to lose the back end and it just turns in amazingly, but in the wet too much power and the back end comes out, lift off while turning and then back end comes out.. in either situation steering into it will usually save it but dont over-correct or you will fish tail espcially when it was a powerslide/drift and the pendulum is usually more aggressive than the original slide!
Have fun
Rossco2010 said:
I ran an MR2 (2.0, NA) for 18 months with no prior experience of RWD or "sports" cars and had no problems in any normal conditions - only slightly loose handling I experienced was in the slush and very low temperatures around Christmas / New Year of 2009 - but that applied to probably 90% of RWD cars on the road
There are no evil cars - its just how you drive it.
Just be sensible - you've got a reasonable power to weight ratio, wideish tyres and weight over the back end - if you stamp on the power mid corner it will break and spin - if you feed it in / save the hard acceleration for when you're straight and take it steady - you'll be absolutely fine, honestly.
Same applies to lift off oversteer - if you go from top of the rev band and totally lift off, yes, it will wobble. If you feather the throttle, its fine.
People do like to "big up" the reputation of these cars - they're not killers, really.
I found real power band was 4k rpm upwards, so just be concious of this as you come out of a bend.
If you're really worried - get some training. I just did an on/off road advanced driving course and its eye opening. I can now pilot my Chimera in the wet with confidence - I'm no driving hero, its just that training is really bloody good. Feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about who I went out with / what they did.
Be sensible and you'll be fine.
There's some wisdom in these words.There are no evil cars - its just how you drive it.
Just be sensible - you've got a reasonable power to weight ratio, wideish tyres and weight over the back end - if you stamp on the power mid corner it will break and spin - if you feed it in / save the hard acceleration for when you're straight and take it steady - you'll be absolutely fine, honestly.
Same applies to lift off oversteer - if you go from top of the rev band and totally lift off, yes, it will wobble. If you feather the throttle, its fine.
People do like to "big up" the reputation of these cars - they're not killers, really.
I found real power band was 4k rpm upwards, so just be concious of this as you come out of a bend.
If you're really worried - get some training. I just did an on/off road advanced driving course and its eye opening. I can now pilot my Chimera in the wet with confidence - I'm no driving hero, its just that training is really bloody good. Feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about who I went out with / what they did.
Be sensible and you'll be fine.
Almost all accidents are the result of a lack of appreciation of one or more things, and most single vehicle fatalities are the result of an over-reaction from the driver. Over-reaction is very closely related to momentary panic and is the result of surprise - something not adequately accounted for.
Be sensible. Any unfamiliar vehicle should be treated with respect and on the road, always drive at least 10% slower than you know you could.
About time I replied to this. Still have the car and have had no problems at all. One thing I will say is that the car does feel unsettled and twitchy when cornering at a pace. I think however this may have more to do with the atrocious condition of the roads around here and natural wear to the suspension and bushes. I did get the geometry set up but at 20 years and 130k miles it will never be perfect. I do fancy something else but that's because I like to change cars often.
One thing I need to do is take it for a proper drive and get some good photos but need to wait until payday for that. Oh, and I did manage to move house in it as well
One thing I need to do is take it for a proper drive and get some good photos but need to wait until payday for that. Oh, and I did manage to move house in it as well
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