Positioning in town
Discussion
I was at an Observer Training Day last weekend and got questioned on why I was explaining to my role-playing "associate" why to position to the centre line/nearside according to what is around you i.e. not taking a n/sposition when children on the pavement or a junction on the left and other similar circumstances.
When driving through town, I was told that it made no sense as there is little or nothing gained when moving around. He said "You're speed is low so by the time you've moved, there's nothing gained." I said that I experience several situations on my commute through villages where there is a huge benefit to positioning where it doesn't impact safety, but this was dismissed.
Similarly when I was positioning on DCs, I was told that moving around in your lane is not advocated in the Highway Code and can confuse people. Well my movement was only when there was nobody around to mislead, and only when I considered it advantageous to move for vision. It was dismissed with "The road is open enough for you not to need to position?" Nothing was said when I pointed out the rather large zone of invisibilty for the high trees on the bend. My question of "Why would you not give yourself the most information possible?" remained unanswered and he subsequently disappeared during the debreif at which point my enthusiasm for the day (and my happiness at bearing costs of getting there) dwindled until the Staff Examiner got speaking again.
So, towns and DCs/Motorways - do you position for safety, vision or both? Reasons for and against welcomed!!
When driving through town, I was told that it made no sense as there is little or nothing gained when moving around. He said "You're speed is low so by the time you've moved, there's nothing gained." I said that I experience several situations on my commute through villages where there is a huge benefit to positioning where it doesn't impact safety, but this was dismissed.
Similarly when I was positioning on DCs, I was told that moving around in your lane is not advocated in the Highway Code and can confuse people. Well my movement was only when there was nobody around to mislead, and only when I considered it advantageous to move for vision. It was dismissed with "The road is open enough for you not to need to position?" Nothing was said when I pointed out the rather large zone of invisibilty for the high trees on the bend. My question of "Why would you not give yourself the most information possible?" remained unanswered and he subsequently disappeared during the debreif at which point my enthusiasm for the day (and my happiness at bearing costs of getting there) dwindled until the Staff Examiner got speaking again.
So, towns and DCs/Motorways - do you position for safety, vision or both? Reasons for and against welcomed!!
I'm not suitably qualified to answer other than if what you are doing meets the criteria as you have described, I don't understand why your actions should be decried.
I found exactly the same situation when being observed. Specific actions that I described as part of my plan were poo-poo'ed without rhyme or reason. Being a cantankerous old git myself, it soon got to me and (I) put a stop to my IAM activities!
Bert
I found exactly the same situation when being observed. Specific actions that I described as part of my plan were poo-poo'ed without rhyme or reason. Being a cantankerous old git myself, it soon got to me and (I) put a stop to my IAM activities!
Bert
OP - it's a shame that you (and BertBert) have reacted to the hopelessness of some IAM members by becoming disillusioned. Far better to stand your ground and argue the point - particularly if (as in this case IMHO) you're in the right. Illegitimi non carborundum.
The IAM has the potential to be a real positive influence on driving attitudes and standards, but if we leave it to the beards and cardigans it'll never fulfill that potential.
Part of the desirable Advanced Driving mindset is an openness to discussion and criticism, which must go along with an ability to accept critical comment. I've experienced many Advanced Drivers - both trainee and qualified - that react to any suggestion or query as a personal insult. Far better to listen, evaluate and then accept or reject the comment after consideration, as difficult as this may be.
To get back to positioning, here's my take on it:
The criteria for choosing a position are Safety, Stability and Vision. Safety (which usually equates to Space between you and the hazard) is improved by giving yourself more time to react, so positioning away from nearside hazards is a worthwhile thing to do. There's probably not much stability benefit with it, but you'll certainly gain vision into entrances and between cars, and make your own vehicle more visible to others. These benefits are smaller with lower speeds and narrower roads, but I'd argue that they're still worth having.
As for faster roads (and higher speeds in general) there's much more discussion to be had about positioning, but you won't find much enthusiasm for it in IAM circles - you could try AD-UK (free) or HPC (not free).
The IAM has the potential to be a real positive influence on driving attitudes and standards, but if we leave it to the beards and cardigans it'll never fulfill that potential.
Part of the desirable Advanced Driving mindset is an openness to discussion and criticism, which must go along with an ability to accept critical comment. I've experienced many Advanced Drivers - both trainee and qualified - that react to any suggestion or query as a personal insult. Far better to listen, evaluate and then accept or reject the comment after consideration, as difficult as this may be.
To get back to positioning, here's my take on it:
The criteria for choosing a position are Safety, Stability and Vision. Safety (which usually equates to Space between you and the hazard) is improved by giving yourself more time to react, so positioning away from nearside hazards is a worthwhile thing to do. There's probably not much stability benefit with it, but you'll certainly gain vision into entrances and between cars, and make your own vehicle more visible to others. These benefits are smaller with lower speeds and narrower roads, but I'd argue that they're still worth having.
As for faster roads (and higher speeds in general) there's much more discussion to be had about positioning, but you won't find much enthusiasm for it in IAM circles - you could try AD-UK (free) or HPC (not free).
LandingSpot said:
I was at an Observer Training Day last weekend and got questioned on why I was explaining to my role-playing "associate" why to position to the centre line/nearside according to what is around you i.e. not taking a n/sposition when children on the pavement or a junction on the left and other similar circumstances.
When driving through town, I was told that it made no sense as there is little or nothing gained when moving around. He said "You're speed is low so by the time you've moved, there's nothing gained." I said that I experience several situations on my commute through villages where there is a huge benefit to positioning where it doesn't impact safety, but this was dismissed.
Similarly when I was positioning on DCs, I was told that moving around in your lane is not advocated in the Highway Code and can confuse people. Well my movement was only when there was nobody around to mislead, and only when I considered it advantageous to move for vision. It was dismissed with "The road is open enough for you not to need to position?" Nothing was said when I pointed out the rather large zone of invisibilty for the high trees on the bend. My question of "Why would you not give yourself the most information possible?" remained unanswered and he subsequently disappeared during the debreif at which point my enthusiasm for the day (and my happiness at bearing costs of getting there) dwindled until the Staff Examiner got speaking again.
So, towns and DCs/Motorways - do you position for safety, vision or both? Reasons for and against welcomed!!
There are different views on such topics. I disagree with what (on the face of it) you were told, and so would many others.When driving through town, I was told that it made no sense as there is little or nothing gained when moving around. He said "You're speed is low so by the time you've moved, there's nothing gained." I said that I experience several situations on my commute through villages where there is a huge benefit to positioning where it doesn't impact safety, but this was dismissed.
Similarly when I was positioning on DCs, I was told that moving around in your lane is not advocated in the Highway Code and can confuse people. Well my movement was only when there was nobody around to mislead, and only when I considered it advantageous to move for vision. It was dismissed with "The road is open enough for you not to need to position?" Nothing was said when I pointed out the rather large zone of invisibilty for the high trees on the bend. My question of "Why would you not give yourself the most information possible?" remained unanswered and he subsequently disappeared during the debreif at which point my enthusiasm for the day (and my happiness at bearing costs of getting there) dwindled until the Staff Examiner got speaking again.
So, towns and DCs/Motorways - do you position for safety, vision or both? Reasons for and against welcomed!!
Position for safety, position for vision, position for advantage and in that order. That is fairly standard advice and works pretty well. There will always be room for debate about specific decisions but it is the underlying approach that we are teaching.
My view is that intelligent positioning significantly improves safety in town driving. We are mostly talking about positioning for safety (rather than vision or advantage) but I include within that positioning to give information - for example a bold position when passing obstructions can be safer than one which invites other drivers into a space that is marginal, or moving out early for a cyclist increases the chances of the driver behind noticing they are there.
On DC I change lateral position less often as there is less reason to. Much of the safety positioning involves moving forward or back in relation to other traffic rather than side to side. Still, in heavy traffic I will do all I can to keep a view of traffic further ahead in the queue, and this may involve adjusting position (after checking for motorcycles) or even straddling lanes in extreme situations. In lighter traffic I will happily take out both lanes or make a non-standard lane selection if I think that is reasonable and beneficial.
Hi there Andy,
Good question to ask.
In the main, I don't position on motorways/DCs. Normally there's vision for miles ahead and the extra stability is insignificant at most people's motorway speeds. There are always exceptions, of course, such as the odd bend with limited view.
In town, I only position where there's real benefit to be gained. I find there aren't so many occasions when it's a significant benefit in the car. Whereas on the bike it can be vital to position for safety in town (in order to avoid SMIDSYs).
In general I agree with your senior observer's comments, but I'd be rather more flexible. I'd avoid any hard and fast rules. If there are times when positioning gains you a significant advantage in town, such as you described, then I'd position to gain that advantage.
HTH
Good question to ask.
In the main, I don't position on motorways/DCs. Normally there's vision for miles ahead and the extra stability is insignificant at most people's motorway speeds. There are always exceptions, of course, such as the odd bend with limited view.
In town, I only position where there's real benefit to be gained. I find there aren't so many occasions when it's a significant benefit in the car. Whereas on the bike it can be vital to position for safety in town (in order to avoid SMIDSYs).
In general I agree with your senior observer's comments, but I'd be rather more flexible. I'd avoid any hard and fast rules. If there are times when positioning gains you a significant advantage in town, such as you described, then I'd position to gain that advantage.
HTH
Edited by SVS on Monday 25th October 20:40
LandingSpot said:
So, towns and DCs/Motorways - do you position for safety, vision or both? Reasons for and against welcomed!!
Position for safety, vision or both? ...I suspect that there is a more fundamental point at issue here.The OP has, regrettably, encountered what is a typical response to his actions from another advanced driver. It's what I term...categorical dogmatism. This condition is exhibited by many advanced drivers, from the newly qualified advanced driver to police Class 1 drivers.
With particular reference to the point in question I have experience, one might say at the highest level, of a police class 1, IAM examiner, telling me that..."we never position laterally, ie. for vision, in an urban, 30 mph, environment, because no advantage is gained". On another occasion a different police Class 1 driver told me that he... "expects IAM candidates to always position for vision in a 30 mph, urban environment". These Class 1 officers were from two different police driving schools and were therefore reflecting what they had been taught. Now, the thing to note is that neither officer would listen to any counter argument, being quite dismissive of any alternative suggestion.
What conclusions can be drawn? As had been said by others on these forums...nothing in advanced driving is black and white... it's all shades of grey.
One of the most perceptive pieces of advice I was given shortly after passing my IAM test was... "advance driving consists of 20% of things you must do... 20% of things you must not do... and the remaining 60% is what advanced drivers argue about interminably."
What the OP has experienced on his observer training day is an issue which falls fairly and squarely in to the 60% band. Unfortunately, his senior observer failed to realise this and instead of responding with..."I suggest you do whatever you consider to be best for you"... responded by exhibiting a classic case of "categorical dogmatism".
I suspect the senior observer is beyond redemption. However, if the OP can accept that the phenomenon of "categorical dogmatism" exists at all levels of advanced driving he will be well on the way to feeling more comfortable with his own views and opinions and perhaps more determined in his counter arguments when next confronted with "categorical dogmatism".
Hope this helps.
Edited by johnao on Monday 25th October 22:05
Edited by johnao on Monday 25th October 22:12
johnao said:
The OP has, regrettably, encountered what is a typical response to his actions from another advanced driver. It's what I term...categorical dogmatism.
Outstanding post Johnao. To be fair, however, in general the more advanced drivers become the more they recognise that advanced driving is an art and not a science. I would expect to find less dogma at Examiner level than at Senior Observer level, and less dogma at Staff Examiner level than at Examiner level.I think the Staff Examiner running the training day would have wanted to hear about the OP's experience.
waremark said:
johnao said:
The OP has, regrettably, encountered what is a typical response to his actions from another advanced driver. It's what I term...categorical dogmatism.
I think the Staff Examiner running the training day would have wanted to hear about the OP's experience.I agree with your comment regarding the Staff Examiner. I would also add that you and I are fortunate to have a Staff Examiner who is firmly opposed to dogmatism.
LandingSpot said:
When driving through town, I was told that it made no sense as there is little or nothing gained when moving around. He said "You're speed is low so by the time you've moved, there's nothing gained."
I position for safety everywhere, at any speed.I once avoided running over a schoolgirl because I had positioned away from the group when she stumbeled into the road, my speed 10-15 mph.
The observer is talking b
ks.M
Edited by mph999 on Monday 1st November 19:44
I'd agree with the comments about Staff Examiners being more flexible. IME, the more people know, they more flexible they are.
A little knowledge breeds dogmatism. (Which is the problem with some IAM Observers.)
A little knowledge breeds dogmatism. (Which is the problem with some IAM Observers.)
johnao said:
I agree with your comment regarding the Staff Examiner. I would also add that you and I are fortunate to have a Staff Examiner who is firmly opposed to dogmatism.
IME, fortunately this is the case with most IAM Staff Examiners and the vast majority of IAM Examiners too. The issue lies with some IAM Observers, though not all.
mph999 said:
I position for safety everywhere, at any speed.
Fair point in the example you gave. Though Mick Wheeler's "Exagerating the position ... " makes interesting reading for an alternative view:http://web.me.com/mick_wheeler/Adventure.GS/Part_3...
If you, from your anticipation and observation, have an explanation for your positioning, how could another criticize?
In town, I am always moving my postion, for reasons others here have suggested, the groups of children on pavements, the person with a pram turning towards the kerb, well OS of NS parked vehicles so those in NS junctions might more easily see me, the list is endless.
I had thought this was just part of a safe, smooth drive.
In town, I am always moving my postion, for reasons others here have suggested, the groups of children on pavements, the person with a pram turning towards the kerb, well OS of NS parked vehicles so those in NS junctions might more easily see me, the list is endless.
I had thought this was just part of a safe, smooth drive.
Edited by WhoseGeneration on Wednesday 24th November 22:02
The criticism applies to those who always position in town, where it confuses other road users. To quote Mick Wheeler:
Exaggerating ‘the position ... In built up areas where there’s no real need. Because they’ve been taught nearside for right-handers, up to white line for lefthanders, they do it at 30 or 40 mph when we have a sight line of two hundred yards and can stop in a fraction of the distance we see to be clear. The car behind of course is asking, “What’s this twerp in front doing, turning left, no right, no left...!”
This doesn't mean never position in town. Sometimes it's beneficial. As I said, 'advanced' positioning can be crucial for riders to avoid SMIDSY accidents.
Exaggerating ‘the position ... In built up areas where there’s no real need. Because they’ve been taught nearside for right-handers, up to white line for lefthanders, they do it at 30 or 40 mph when we have a sight line of two hundred yards and can stop in a fraction of the distance we see to be clear. The car behind of course is asking, “What’s this twerp in front doing, turning left, no right, no left...!”
This doesn't mean never position in town. Sometimes it's beneficial. As I said, 'advanced' positioning can be crucial for riders to avoid SMIDSY accidents.
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