Discussion
Hey people 
Also guys, in nearly 90% of my gear changes I rev match by blipping the throttle as changing down so the revs match with the speed that the car is doing, not only does this have the added aural effect but it also makes driving more smooth. What I am wondering is if anyone knows how I can learn the heel and toe technique?
I also use left foot braking after scrubbing up on the skill on the last few track days that I have done and I have come to the conclusion that they should teach this to new people who are learning to drive as it's a safer way to brake and manage the throttle at the same time, how come no one else thinks the same?
Also guys, in nearly 90% of my gear changes I rev match by blipping the throttle as changing down so the revs match with the speed that the car is doing, not only does this have the added aural effect but it also makes driving more smooth. What I am wondering is if anyone knows how I can learn the heel and toe technique?
I also use left foot braking after scrubbing up on the skill on the last few track days that I have done and I have come to the conclusion that they should teach this to new people who are learning to drive as it's a safer way to brake and manage the throttle at the same time, how come no one else thinks the same?
Bella Smallville said:
Hey people
Also guys, in nearly 90% of my gear changes I rev match by blipping the throttle as changing down so the revs match with the speed that the car is doing, not only does this have the added aural effect but it also makes driving more smooth. What I am wondering is if anyone knows how I can learn the heel and toe technique?
I also use left foot braking after scrubbing up on the skill on the last few track days that I have done and I have come to the conclusion that they should teach this to new people who are learning to drive as it's a safer way to brake and manage the throttle at the same time, how come no one else thinks the same?
You're 1/2 way there - Do exactly what you are doing but whilst braking - use the 'ball' of you foot (or even just big toe ....) on the brake, and rotate you foot to use either the side of , or your heel on the gas to blip.Also guys, in nearly 90% of my gear changes I rev match by blipping the throttle as changing down so the revs match with the speed that the car is doing, not only does this have the added aural effect but it also makes driving more smooth. What I am wondering is if anyone knows how I can learn the heel and toe technique?
I also use left foot braking after scrubbing up on the skill on the last few track days that I have done and I have come to the conclusion that they should teach this to new people who are learning to drive as it's a safer way to brake and manage the throttle at the same time, how come no one else thinks the same?
Important point - the difficult bit is to blip the gas whilst maintaining the same pressure on the brake, you don't want to blip the brake as well.
However, to start with you will, so don't do it with anyone behind you ...
Next stage, heel and toe whilst double-de-clutching ...
Martin
Be aware that the pedals in a road car are not usually in the optimal position for non standard techniques. It may not be physically possible to manage heel and toe in some cars if you have small feet as the distance between the pedals may be too large.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
Bella Smallville said:
Hey people
I also use left foot braking after scrubbing up on the skill on the last few track days that I have done and I have come to the conclusion that they should teach this to new people who are learning to drive as it's a safer way to brake and manage the throttle at the same time, how come no one else thinks the same?
Learning to drive is all about managing the clutch, so it's better to have one foot just for that as the action for modulating the clutch is very different to the brake, whereas the accelerator and brake are much more similar.I also use left foot braking after scrubbing up on the skill on the last few track days that I have done and I have come to the conclusion that they should teach this to new people who are learning to drive as it's a safer way to brake and manage the throttle at the same time, how come no one else thinks the same?
Find an empty road to practise on at first. It might feel weird at first, but it'll be second nature before too long. The nice thing about heel and toe from a road safety point of view is that it allows you to change down properly matching the revs whilst going down hills (especially important because going down a hill the rear tyres are quite lightly loaded), and you can also change gear whilst covering the brake should anything suddenly happen (for example, when approaching a badly parked car on your side of the road, or a blind bend).
Your biggest enemy when heel and toeing is over-servoed brakes. Most people will vary the brake pressure slightly during the blip, which doesn't matter in a car designed for H&T, like a Porsche or BMW, because it has no effect on the brake pressure. Try it in an Audi though and you might find your braking becomes very jerky.
Your biggest enemy when heel and toeing is over-servoed brakes. Most people will vary the brake pressure slightly during the blip, which doesn't matter in a car designed for H&T, like a Porsche or BMW, because it has no effect on the brake pressure. Try it in an Audi though and you might find your braking becomes very jerky.
Thanks robM77, I got a few track days booked for the next few months so I'm going to be practicing in a place with large run offs, just like I had done with left foot braking and now that's totally good .
Does anyone think that when buying a high performance car that the driver should have to do an advanced driving day?? I say this because I had a Focus ST initiate a kinda spirited dash down a quiet country road and was shocked when the drive did not have a clue how to drive it properly, I pulled over as he was getting darn right dangerous but I was totally fine, bare in mind it was down a twisty road and I only have 100 ponies but had various suspension upgrades plus driven by an expert driver.
. Does anyone think that when buying a high performance car that the driver should have to do an advanced driving day?? I say this because I had a Focus ST initiate a kinda spirited dash down a quiet country road and was shocked when the drive did not have a clue how to drive it properly, I pulled over as he was getting darn right dangerous but I was totally fine, bare in mind it was down a twisty road and I only have 100 ponies but had various suspension upgrades plus driven by an expert driver.
Bella Smallville said:
Thanks robM77, I got a few track days booked for the next few months so I'm going to be practicing in a place with large run offs, just like I had done with left foot braking and now that's totally good .
I'd practise first on an empty road at low speed if I were you, or preferably off road. Learning to heel and toe at high speed on a track isn't especially safe, especially for the other people around you. As you may have discovered in the past, it only takes a moments lapse of concentration to find yourself pushing wide, leaving the track, or perhaps spinning and finding yourself in someone else's way. If you don't know of any empty roads, then a driving coach will often have access to an area such as an airfield to practise on. When track driving, your eyes and mind should be forwards out of the cockpit at all times.. Bella Smallville said:
Does anyone think that when buying a high performance car that the driver should have to do an advanced driving day?? I say this because I had a Focus ST initiate a kinda spirited dash down a quiet country road and was shocked when the drive did not have a clue how to drive it properly, I pulled over as he was getting darn right dangerous but I was totally fine, bare in mind it was down a twisty road and I only have 100 ponies but had various suspension upgrades plus driven by an expert driver.
I think an "expert driver" would probably already be able to heel and toe to be honest 
Oh, and perhaps have got more than 3½ years experience in shopping cars with around 100bhp 
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 13th August 17:44
Okay let me replace 'expert driver' with 'good driver' as there is obviously things I need to learn still and need more experience lol!!
I suppose what I meant about driving quick against the ST is that he was quick but dangerous, was not very smooth and was constantly making sharp movements where as I find I'm able to get going quickly but my driving is nice and smooth, no sharp turning quickly or sharp braking. I think the term I'm looking for is a more fluid drive
And the point about not having much oomph is that it showed me why having loads of power dose not always come in handy down a twisty country road as toy can't always get the power down where as a lighter car with good handling and driven properly can often match the pace of a heavier faster car. I got a great video clip of this actually if your interested?
I suppose what I meant about driving quick against the ST is that he was quick but dangerous, was not very smooth and was constantly making sharp movements where as I find I'm able to get going quickly but my driving is nice and smooth, no sharp turning quickly or sharp braking. I think the term I'm looking for is a more fluid drive
And the point about not having much oomph is that it showed me why having loads of power dose not always come in handy down a twisty country road as toy can't always get the power down where as a lighter car with good handling and driven properly can often match the pace of a heavier faster car. I got a great video clip of this actually if your interested?
I never got heel and toe until - having watched this video of Ayrton Senna working the break and the throttle in a Honda NSX - that it didn't have to be done with the heel and the toe
this method works so much better for me - not that I find much need to use it on the road, but sometimes I practice it when I feel like it
Watch a master at work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
this method works so much better for me - not that I find much need to use it on the road, but sometimes I practice it when I feel like it
Watch a master at work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
Heel and toe helps if the pedals are laid out in a way which feels natural, for me that's rolling my right foot to blip whilst controlling braking with the toe. I've never been able to do it in the defender or blip with my heel - it's a doddle in the Ka though. It is satisfying when you match it accurately, a Ka is a good car to lean on as the brakes are positive but not too sharp and you learn to listen to the revs as most ka's have no rev counter, also they have got minimal performance so rev matching really helps strangle a bit more eagerness out of the engine.
RobM77 said:
Your biggest enemy when heel and toeing is over-servoed brakes. Most people will vary the brake pressure slightly during the blip, which doesn't matter in a car designed for H&T, like a Porsche or BMW, because it has no effect on the brake pressure. Try it in an Audi though and you might find your braking becomes very jerky.
Oddly I find it quite easy in my Audi, however newer Audis seem to be significantly more servoed. I'm not sure if it's just less worn pads / discs so less travel or they've changed the servoing on newer models. Also tried it in a shopping trolley hire car (corsa) and couldn't get the throttle low enough to get any revs without either slamming on or falling off the brake pedal.Never tried actually using my heel though, seems unnatural, I roll my foot as shown in that vid.
Flibble said:
Never tried actually using my heel though, seems unnatural, I roll my foot as shown in that vid.
In some cars the pedal spacing is so wide that it takes quite a lot of movement and ankle flexibility to do it, but if it is too wide for the side of your foot you either do it with the heel or not at all. Sometimes I practise in the work HiLux just for a laugh. Flibble said:
RobM77 said:
Your biggest enemy when heel and toeing is over-servoed brakes. Most people will vary the brake pressure slightly during the blip, which doesn't matter in a car designed for H&T, like a Porsche or BMW, because it has no effect on the brake pressure. Try it in an Audi though and you might find your braking becomes very jerky.
Oddly I find it quite easy in my Audi, however newer Audis seem to be significantly more servoed. I'm not sure if it's just less worn pads / discs so less travel or they've changed the servoing on newer models. Also tried it in a shopping trolley hire car (corsa) and couldn't get the throttle low enough to get any revs without either slamming on or falling off the brake pedal.Never tried actually using my heel though, seems unnatural, I roll my foot as shown in that vid.
Yes, sorry, I was referring to newer Audis.Most modern cars remind me of those stubby little brakes they fit to cheap bicycles - fantastic initial bite but no real power. That sensitive top of the pedal makes it extremely hard to heel and toe, at least when braking lightly on the road anyway. I can drive without H&T (I have to in my girlfriend's car), but I find it very limiting and neve4r quite relax and enjoy it as much as if I can.
Apparently, some cars actually don't allow the brake and throttle to be pressed at the same time, which is quite alarming. VAG products are apparently like this, but it wasn't the case in the two recent ones that I've driven (Golf GTi and Audi RS4).
davepoth said:
Learning to drive is all about managing the clutch, so it's better to have one foot just for that as the action for modulating the clutch is very different to the brake, whereas the accelerator and brake are much more similar.
I'd say a brake and a clutch are more similar - both are relatively heavy pedals. A throttle is very light.But the brake pedal is unique, in that it is pressure sensitive, not position sensitive. With both the throttle and the clutch, the result depends on WHERE the pedal is, but with a brake it's how HARD you are pressing it.
I heel and toe all the time, and I occasionally left foot brake when I don't need to change gear (or if I'm in the mood for clutchless gearchanges). All good skills to have, even if you don't use them all the time (or even very often at all).
A couple things to add to good comments already made:
- H&T def a nice tool to have in the toolbox; generally of limited use in road driving apart from when you're going downhill and something unexpected creates the need to change down. Sure, you can use H&T when entering your basic bend on a b-road, but the practice has a tendency, IMO, to encourage carrying too much speed into a bend. H&T is a technique that was developed to reduce lap-time whilst racing.
I often will use it on the roads, although I'm not sure that my driving benefits as a result. My motive would be the marginal pleasure that it can bring.
- A good way to get started with H&T is when the car not moving. Just sit there, foot on brake, and practise rotating your ankle/foot to rev engine. Try revving engine to different rpms. Try using different amounts of pressure on brake pedal. It all helps to give a feel for what you'll be doing on the move.
- People have commented on absurdly over-servo'd modern brakes. This is less of a problem on circuit, where as a matter of course you're applying a lot more brake pressure anytime that you're changing down.
- Left foot braking. On public roads, it can make sense as the default choice in a car without a clutch pedal. In a standard manual set-up, however, its real-world applications are very rare indeed. I'd think that, in attempting to use it, people would get themselves into more trouble than what they were likely to avoid.
Cheers.
- H&T def a nice tool to have in the toolbox; generally of limited use in road driving apart from when you're going downhill and something unexpected creates the need to change down. Sure, you can use H&T when entering your basic bend on a b-road, but the practice has a tendency, IMO, to encourage carrying too much speed into a bend. H&T is a technique that was developed to reduce lap-time whilst racing.
I often will use it on the roads, although I'm not sure that my driving benefits as a result. My motive would be the marginal pleasure that it can bring.
- A good way to get started with H&T is when the car not moving. Just sit there, foot on brake, and practise rotating your ankle/foot to rev engine. Try revving engine to different rpms. Try using different amounts of pressure on brake pedal. It all helps to give a feel for what you'll be doing on the move.
- People have commented on absurdly over-servo'd modern brakes. This is less of a problem on circuit, where as a matter of course you're applying a lot more brake pressure anytime that you're changing down.
- Left foot braking. On public roads, it can make sense as the default choice in a car without a clutch pedal. In a standard manual set-up, however, its real-world applications are very rare indeed. I'd think that, in attempting to use it, people would get themselves into more trouble than what they were likely to avoid.
Cheers.
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