Has IAM driving style moved on?
Discussion
I did an IAM test many years ago and it was explained to me that it was essentially the way the Police were taught to drive. I think the observation side of the test was useful as an exercise. However, what I just couldn't get used to was the driving method that involved breaking, taking your foot off the break and then clutching to change gear when slowing down toward a junction/corner or whatever. The premis was that it's better to only do 'one thing at a time'. I found it an entirely unatural and not very effective driving style. I found it actually quite dangerous when approaching a junction, corner or whatever when going downhill - the car would speed up for a short time between lifing the break, depressing the clutch pedal and changing gear. This also created a sharp deacceleration as the clutch engaged, not smooth or comfortable driving. I gave up on the IAM and it's driving style as result. Since then, I've done driving days at race circuits and what the instructors there drum into you is driving smoothly. Breaks are applied in the breaking zone that leads right up to the corner and a change of gear can be made in the middle of the breaking zone - while you're still breaking with the foot break. This driving style translates directly to public roads - it's not about speed but about smoothe driving. Without a doubt, this is a vastly superior driving style than IAM prescribed at the time. I just wondered if the IAM are still prescribing the old method?
Zarty
Zarty
I can't speak for your experience of the IAM, but it's certainly the case now that a planned overlap on a downhill slope is fine.
If you do a search on here or AD-UK for 'overlapping', you'll find all the arguments have been done to death many times over.
To save you the read, I can summarise: pretty much all the Police, IAM and RoSPA drivers will say it's useful and you should be able to do it, but it's not a hanging offence if you overlap in a planned way for a reason.
Everyone else will say that separation is pointless, they never need to leave any extra safety margins and who the hell are the other guys for daring to say otherwise.
If you do a search on here or AD-UK for 'overlapping', you'll find all the arguments have been done to death many times over.
To save you the read, I can summarise: pretty much all the Police, IAM and RoSPA drivers will say it's useful and you should be able to do it, but it's not a hanging offence if you overlap in a planned way for a reason.
Everyone else will say that separation is pointless, they never need to leave any extra safety margins and who the hell are the other guys for daring to say otherwise.
Oh, and it's braking, BTW
Has IAM driving style moved on?
No. Not on an H-gate box. Same old, same old. <yoda>Death! Done to this one has been.</yoda>
Do your test in something with flappy paddles and you'll likely be told to use the car as the manufacturer recommends in their handbook.
No. Not on an H-gate box. Same old, same old. <yoda>Death! Done to this one has been.</yoda>
Do your test in something with flappy paddles and you'll likely be told to use the car as the manufacturer recommends in their handbook.
Edited by Don on Wednesday 28th July 14:07
Zarty said:
Breaks are applied in the breaking zone that leads right up to the corner and a change of gear can be made in the middle of the breaking zone - while you're still breaking with the foot break. Zarty
Can you clarify one thing, please? With the right foot still pressing on the brake pedal, how do you match engine speed and road speed before lifting the clutch and engaging the lower gear?
Many thanks
johnao said:
Can you clarify one thing, please?
With the right foot still pressing on the brake pedal, how do you match engine speed and road speed before lifting the clutch and engaging the lower gear?
As to the OP, it doesn't sound like you had the IAM driving style (and the reasons behind it) properly explained or demonstrated, for example planned overlap on a downhill turn-off is absolutely fine if appropriate, but generally avoiding overlap is a key principle.
There's a substantial distinction between proper on-track driving style and a system of car control appropriate for the road.
Edited by _Neal_ on Wednesday 28th July 16:19
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
I can't speak for your experience of the IAM, but it's certainly the case now that a planned overlap on a downhill slope is fine.
I think that has been around for a long time. In my old but not ancient copy of roadcraft it clearly talks about where overlapping is considered appropriate. Those are cases where it benefits safety.Bert
_Neal_ said:
johnao said:
Can you clarify one thing, please?
With the right foot still pressing on the brake pedal, how do you match engine speed and road speed before lifting the clutch and engaging the lower gear?
Edited by _Neal_ on Wednesday 28th July 16:19
No, the question wasn't rhetorical. I am still hoping that Zarty will come back with an answer - which will probably be either - "heel & toe", or "I don't".
The debate can follow on from there...
In the meantime, I wholly agree with what you say about the OP's IAM experience. In my own case the benefits of brake/gear separation were never explained to me prior to my IAM test - it was a case of "this is what we do as advanced drivers" - only after reading fora such as this and discussing the matter with other advanced drivers, was I able to understand and appreciate the benefits. As is often said... the IAM/RoSPA test is but the first rung on the ladder of your advanced driving career. However, It does concern me that some IAM/RoSPA members fall off the first rung because of their experience with their local group/observer/tutor, which sadly is what appears to have happened with Zarty.
johnao said:
As is often said... the IAM/RoSPA test is but the first rung on the ladder of your advanced driving career. However, It does concern me that some IAM/RoSPA members fall off the first rung because of their experience with their local group/observer/tutor, which sadly is what appears to have happened with Zarty.
I totally agree - my view is that you have to "buy-in" to the system in order to be able to engage with and apply it. The IAM/RoSPA have a poor enough reputation for being dull and high-handed, so a "just do this because we say so" approach will turn people off. _Neal_ said:
johnao said:
As is often said... the IAM/RoSPA test is but the first rung on the ladder of your advanced driving career. However, It does concern me that some IAM/RoSPA members fall off the first rung because of their experience with their local group/observer/tutor, which sadly is what appears to have happened with Zarty.
I totally agree - my view is that you have to "buy-in" to the system in order to be able to engage with and apply it. The IAM/RoSPA have a poor enough reputation for being dull and high-handed, so a "just do this because we say so" approach will turn people off. Then you get the ones who came to the IAM to get their driving rubber stamped. They often fail because when they find things they don't agree with they aren't willing to try them, practice them to test standard and then make up their minds.
Me? I heel and toe because I can and because it's exercising a skill few people have (perhaps not just a few on PH but generally) and it makes a great noise and it's fast.
I can also drive by the book - as in Roadcraft. Swap between the two anytime I like. Easy peasy.
Mainly because I practice a lot: I like to give at least two and possibly three demo drives to each of my Associates. Once at the beginning to start them off. Then once in the middle whilst they are really struggling so they can believe it's possible, and then again if there's specific techniques that require a practical demonstration. Given these demo drives need to be absolutely tip-top if I'm not going to confuse the poor Associates I need to keep in practice.
Don said:
_Neal_ said:
johnao said:
As is often said... the IAM/RoSPA test is but the first rung on the ladder of your advanced driving career. However, It does concern me that some IAM/RoSPA members fall off the first rung because of their experience with their local group/observer/tutor, which sadly is what appears to have happened with Zarty.
I totally agree - my view is that you have to "buy-in" to the system in order to be able to engage with and apply it. The IAM/RoSPA have a poor enough reputation for being dull and high-handed, so a "just do this because we say so" approach will turn people off. Then you get the ones who came to the IAM to get their driving rubber stamped. They often fail because when they find things they don't agree with they aren't willing to try them, practice them to test standard and then make up their minds.
I like the idea of multiple demo drives as a teaching aid
_Neal_ said:
I like the idea of multiple demo drives as a teaching aid
It works. It helps them enormously. AND it has the benefit of sorting the men from the boys. "Yes it CAN be done. Yes in your car, too. Want me to show you?"(The last bit requires insurance adjustments but sometimes if it's the thing that's going to help it's worth it!)
Don said:
_Neal_ said:
I like the idea of multiple demo drives as a teaching aid
It works. It helps them enormously. AND it has the benefit of sorting the men from the boys. "Yes it CAN be done. Yes in your car, too. Want me to show you?"(The last bit requires insurance adjustments but sometimes if it's the thing that's going to help it's worth it!)
I've driven a couple of Associate's cars, when they have issues, with BGOL or cornering at a sensible speed for example.
Vaux said:
Don said:
_Neal_ said:
I like the idea of multiple demo drives as a teaching aid
It works. It helps them enormously. AND it has the benefit of sorting the men from the boys. "Yes it CAN be done. Yes in your car, too. Want me to show you?"(The last bit requires insurance adjustments but sometimes if it's the thing that's going to help it's worth it!)
I've driven a couple of Associate's cars, when they have issues, with BGOL or cornering at a sensible speed for example.
Don said:
Vaux said:
Don said:
_Neal_ said:
I like the idea of multiple demo drives as a teaching aid
It works. It helps them enormously. AND it has the benefit of sorting the men from the boys. "Yes it CAN be done. Yes in your car, too. Want me to show you?"(The last bit requires insurance adjustments but sometimes if it's the thing that's going to help it's worth it!)
I've driven a couple of Associate's cars, when they have issues, with BGOL or cornering at a sensible speed for example.
Vaux said:
Seems a bit of a faff if all you want to do is show them something for five minutes. Safer though.
Well usually I demo in my own car. It's an option of last resort to do it in theirs...but it has happened and if it's the thing that makes the scales fall from their eyes? Then it was worth it.As someone who once asked on here about brake-gear separation which resulted in a mammoth thread, I can say that I am still not convinced that 'separation' is superior to overlapping.
However, I have been practising 'separation' and it does become easier, if still a bit unnatural and 'mechanical' for the various reason explained above.
On a brisk (but mostly smooth) drive along a set of very twisting, undulating roads last night heel-toe allowed a smoothness and level of control that would not have been possible with separation and at no point did I feel out of control.
ps. I'm considering doing car IAM, having done bike IAM, so I have no issues with 'the system' etc.
However, I have been practising 'separation' and it does become easier, if still a bit unnatural and 'mechanical' for the various reason explained above.
On a brisk (but mostly smooth) drive along a set of very twisting, undulating roads last night heel-toe allowed a smoothness and level of control that would not have been possible with separation and at no point did I feel out of control.
ps. I'm considering doing car IAM, having done bike IAM, so I have no issues with 'the system' etc.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 29th July 16:55
Oh no, not BGOL versus separation again ;-)
In most circumstances when driving within speed limits (except turning into a junction down a descent for instance, where BGOL is clearly appropriate), I am pretty sure that someone that properly uses separation will have no problem making as much progress as an overlapper.
The separator should have a safety advantage in that, by means of using less simultaneous inputs to the controls of the car, stability and smoothness would be increased.
On a track, at the limit, I think BGOL is more likely to be beneficial - along with heel & toe (listen to a Formula 1 P1 qualifying lap by Vettel for instance - BGOL all the way round, even then its often pretty much all out of the way before much steering is done).
In most circumstances when driving within speed limits (except turning into a junction down a descent for instance, where BGOL is clearly appropriate), I am pretty sure that someone that properly uses separation will have no problem making as much progress as an overlapper.
The separator should have a safety advantage in that, by means of using less simultaneous inputs to the controls of the car, stability and smoothness would be increased.
On a track, at the limit, I think BGOL is more likely to be beneficial - along with heel & toe (listen to a Formula 1 P1 qualifying lap by Vettel for instance - BGOL all the way round, even then its often pretty much all out of the way before much steering is done).
<vonhosen mode, if it's safe and achieves the outcomes desired from the training course I'm concerned with, it's acceptable. If you wish to join, or be passed by any other particular organisation, you have to conform to it's specific methods.>
Just as with those who want to practise teaching, surveying, law or commercial flying.
Now, having gained admittance to any of those areas, some will merely be competent, others will go on to become much more able.
Just as with those who want to practise teaching, surveying, law or commercial flying.
Now, having gained admittance to any of those areas, some will merely be competent, others will go on to become much more able.
johnao said:
Zarty said:
Breaks are applied in the breaking zone that leads right up to the corner and a change of gear can be made in the middle of the breaking zone - while you're still breaking with the foot break. Zarty
Can you clarify one thing, please? With the right foot still pressing on the brake pedal, how do you match engine speed and road speed before lifting the clutch and engaging the lower gear?
Many thanks
Depends on the positioning of the pedals, it can be easy on some cars and virtually impossible on others.
Edited by mph999 on Saturday 31st July 09:10
mph999 said:
johnao said:
Zarty said:
Breaks are applied in the breaking zone that leads right up to the corner and a change of gear can be made in the middle of the breaking zone - while you're still breaking with the foot break. Zarty
Can you clarify one thing, please? With the right foot still pressing on the brake pedal, how do you match engine speed and road speed before lifting the clutch and engaging the lower gear?
Many thanks
Depends on the positioning of the pedals, it can be easy on some cars and virtually impossible on others.
Edited by mph999 on Saturday 31st July 09:10
Thank you, yes, I know that heel & toe is the solution - my question was directed at no one other than Zarty - please see my second posting on Wed 28th.
What I want to know is whether or not Zarty uses this technique, and if not, how does he deal with clutch/engine drag but, so far, I don't think that he has responded to this particular point.
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