Driver training (car control as opposed to road skills)

[Sideways Rich]

I'd appreciate input from anyone who has the same dilemma; I'd like to do some driver training to improve my ability in particular focussing on limit handling/anticipating/reacting, so far I have considered the following;

<> Don Palmer Car Control day at Bruntingthorpe - looks good, read positive feedback from those that have done it. Downside - wear and tear on own car (rear tyres will need replacing soon anyway)

<>Palmersport day - expensive-ish (suppose it's reasonable taking into account you don't use your own car)

<> Driver Development (Warwick) - reasonably priced though not sure on how much driving time is involved and size of the group on the day

<> Andy Walsh Car Limits - looks very cheap and a variety of cars to drive, also does 1-2-1 driver training

The only training I have completed so far is the half day I did at the Porsche centre (Silverstone) which was excellent but went by very quickly!

If anyone has done any of the above I'd be really keen to hear your opinions?

Thanks
Rich

[7db]

Go and see Don. Your fears of tyre sympathy are well-founded, but the man does know his stuff. Andy has a great reputation as well, but I've not spent time with him.

[Stefluc]

What about Ride Drive on road training you will get a lot more from that as It is road based,if you want off road work then they can arrange this as well,why not visit their website and compare before you decide.
Stefluc

[anonymous-user]

I have heard good things about all of those mentioned and also Sean Edwards

http://news.seanedwards.eu/coaching/track-coaching...

[ScoobyChris]

Been to see Hairy Don a few times now and learnt a great deal on each outing that I've been able to apply to road driving. Highly recommended and if you do it during the winter (rainy/icey season) you can minimise tyre wear...

Chris

[Sideways Rich]

I was originally leaning more towards a day with Don anyway, if I can fix the weather (rain) even better, my rear tyres are due an imminent cremation - are there facilities to put new tyres on at Bruntingthorpe - during the day itself?

[WhoseGeneration]

Sideways Rich said:

I'd appreciate input from anyone who has the same dilemma; I'd like to do some driver training to improve my ability in particular focussing on limit handling/anticipating/reacting, so far I have considered the following;

<> Don Palmer Car Control day at Bruntingthorpe - looks good, read positive feedback from those that have done it. Downside - wear and tear on own car (rear tyres will need replacing soon anyway)

<>Palmersport day - expensive-ish (suppose it's reasonable taking into account you don't use your own car)

<> Driver Development (Warwick) - reasonably priced though not sure on how much driving time is involved and size of the group on the day

<> Andy Walsh Car Limits - looks very cheap and a variety of cars to drive, also does 1-2-1 driver training

The only training I have completed so far is the half day I did at the Porsche centre (Silverstone) which was excellent but went by very quickly!

If anyone has done any of the above I'd be really keen to hear your opinions?

Thanks
Rich

One question I have, what will you then use your new found ability at "limit handling" for?

[reggie82]

WhoseGeneration said:

Sideways Rich said:

I'd appreciate input from anyone who has the same dilemma; I'd like to do some driver training to improve my ability in particular focussing on limit handling/anticipating/reacting, so far I have considered the following;

<> Don Palmer Car Control day at Bruntingthorpe - looks good, read positive feedback from those that have done it. Downside - wear and tear on own car (rear tyres will need replacing soon anyway)

<>Palmersport day - expensive-ish (suppose it's reasonable taking into account you don't use your own car)

<> Driver Development (Warwick) - reasonably priced though not sure on how much driving time is involved and size of the group on the day

<> Andy Walsh Car Limits - looks very cheap and a variety of cars to drive, also does 1-2-1 driver training

The only training I have completed so far is the half day I did at the Porsche centre (Silverstone) which was excellent but went by very quickly!

If anyone has done any of the above I'd be really keen to hear your opinions?

Thanks
Rich

One question I have, what will you then use your new found ability at "limit handling" for?

Are you his dad?

[WhoseGeneration]

reggie82 said:

Are you his dad?

Being childless, I doubt it.
Just that I consider any exploitation of "limit handling" to be for trackdays or, more usefully, competition.
Consider, with NSL meaning no limit, would you want all others approaching to be "on the limit"?

[reggie82]

WhoseGeneration said:

reggie82 said:

Are you his dad?

Being childless, I doubt it.
Just that I consider any exploitation of "limit handling" to be for trackdays or, more usefully, competition.
Consider, with NSL meaning no limit, would you want all others approaching to be "on the limit"?

No, but I would like them to know how far away from the limit they are.

If a driver has the mentality to drive like an idiot (which reading between the lines is what you were incinuating), they will do it whether they have had training or not. Sorry for the sarcasm in my first post, but it frustrates me when people on here make assumptions rather than just answer the persons question.

[7db]

I think it's a legitimate question whether increased limit-handling skills are useful for road driving, and whether increased confidence near the limit encourages approaching it.

On balance, I think it's a useful thing to have in the bag, and the issue of maturity and judgement is separate.

It does remind me of the debate over seatbelts -- that wearing them might encourage risk-taking (and conversely whether daggers on steering-wheels would be a positive step for road safety).

[WhoseGeneration]

reggie82 said:

No, but I would like them to know how far away from the limit they are.

If a driver has the mentality to drive like an idiot (which reading between the lines is what you were incinuating), they will do it whether they have had training or not. Sorry for the sarcasm in my first post, but it frustrates me when people on here make assumptions rather than just answer the persons question.

Truth is, whatever the training, few really can drive on the limit.
Near, yes, that last bit, no.
That ability, the last bit, is what defines the winners in competition.
On public roads, it is possible to make very good progress, even ignoring NSL, without ever approaching the limit.
If I were to drive on the limit on public roads, I doubt you'd want me approaching.
I don't want others approaching testing their knowledge of how far away from the limit they are.
True advanced drivers can make progress, outside of NSL if they so choose, without ever approaching the limit, or being any danger to others.

[Sideways Rich]

WhoseGeneration - now we have established you and I have no biological link perhaps you could contribute something meaningful and directly related to my original question - i.e. which of the courses/options I have mentioned would be beneficial in learning to ANTICIPATE and handle a car on/near the limit.

To allay your fear, no my intention is not to drive like a lunatic, throw my car sideways off of every roundabout or indeed to drift round blind bends whilst observing the road from the side window! Neither do I have to be "competing" to benefit/enjoy learning car control.

Put simply I'm acutely aware I'm not god's gift to driving and am keen to develop some awareness/skill on how to anticipate and control my car near to the limit for the odd track day I may participate in.

[WhoseGeneration]

Sideways Rich said:

Put simply I'm acutely aware I'm not god's gift to driving and am keen to develop some awareness/skill on how to anticipate and control my car near to the limit for the odd track day I may participate in.

Well, any of those you reference will help you.
Up to you to decide how much you can afford.
Then, my view is that trackdays are no way to find out one's abilities.
Competition is the only way.

[reggie82]

WhoseGeneration said:

reggie82 said:

No, but I would like them to know how far away from the limit they are.

If a driver has the mentality to drive like an idiot (which reading between the lines is what you were incinuating), they will do it whether they have had training or not. Sorry for the sarcasm in my first post, but it frustrates me when people on here make assumptions rather than just answer the persons question.

Truth is, whatever the training, few really can drive on the limit.
Near, yes, that last bit, no.
That ability, the last bit, is what defines the winners in competition.
On public roads, it is possible to make very good progress, even ignoring NSL, without ever approaching the limit.
If I were to drive on the limit on public roads, I doubt you'd want me approaching.
I don't want others approaching testing their knowledge of how far away from the limit they are.
True advanced drivers can make progress, outside of NSL if they so choose, without ever approaching the limit, or being any danger to others.

Yup, totally agree with all of that.

[ScoobyChris]

Sideways Rich said:

To allay your fear, no my intention is not to drive like a lunatic, throw my car sideways off of every roundabout or indeed to drift round blind bends whilst observing the road from the side window! Neither do I have to be "competing" to benefit/enjoy learning car control.

While Don's day is titled "limit handling" I found it to be very much more than that. As part of the day, we explored more fundamental things such as steering and braking techniques which are also transferable to road driving a long way from the limit of grip.

Chris

[dom180]

Be sure to ask your potential instructor, how much 1:1 time you will get with him in the car before you book.... (And how long the lunch break/drive to the pub will take etc.)

There's something to be said for doing a course at a custom facility with low grip surfaces to avoid tyre wear and simulate wet/low grip surfaces - I personally wouldn't want to take a new car to Bruntingthorpe (I have been) as the surface is very uneven and you could easily scuff alloys on the potholes.... You should also ask if you'll get exclusive use of the venue or whether other activities will be going on at the same time which might impact on your training....

The Porsche driving centre is indeed excellent - I've been twice and the instructors were first rate (both racers in competitive series.)

A couple of friends have used DriverDP and they were very impressed.

http://www.driverdp.com/about-ddp.html

I believe they suggest a typical itinery on the site, and you seem to get a fair amount of 1:1 tuition.

Edited by dom180 on Sunday 25th July 18:08

[RobM77]

I wouldn't want to thrape my pride and joy around Bruntingthorpe, that's for sure. It's bumpy and a very harsh surface on tyres. It's not just tyres, but general wear and tear on the entire car (springs, dampers, bushes, steering and even rattles in the cockpit developing). The furthest I'd go in one of my beloved road cars would be a track day where I'd drive smoothly and quickly, and certainly not snapping the car sideways (unless it was a pouring wet day).

If you own a Cayman S already then you're in an ideal position, because they've got them available for tuition at Porsche Driving Centre Silverstone. I'd do one of their longer driving courses, and ask to be in a Cayman for the whole time. You'll learn a whole load without putting any wear and tear on your car at all.

[clk55pete]

I've done days with Don Palmer at Bruntingthorpe, Driver Development at Prodrives proving ground and Andy Walsh at Weald airfield.

All three are fun. Dons was the most thought provoking and got me to know my car well. Andy Walsh's day was good as you repeated a number of exercises (like taking a left hand bend at increasing speeds until you lots the back) and Driver Developments was a day using three different types of track: low friction, short bendy and a onw mile triangle.

All were worth doing. On my sessions Dons worked with me and one other; Andy's worked with four people including me and Driving Developments had one tutor to three people if I remember correctly.

If I had to choose I would probably go with Don but that is not to say that the others aren't worth doing - they are.

[Sideways Rich]

RobM77 said:

I wouldn't want to thrape my pride and joy around Bruntingthorpe, that's for sure. It's bumpy and a very harsh surface on tyres. It's not just tyres, but general wear and tear on the entire car (springs, dampers, bushes, steering and even rattles in the cockpit developing). The furthest I'd go in one of my beloved road cars would be a track day where I'd drive smoothly and quickly, and certainly not snapping the car sideways (unless it was a pouring wet day).

If you own a Cayman S already then you're in an ideal position, because they've got them available for tuition at Porsche Driving Centre Silverstone. I'd do one of their longer driving courses, and ask to be in a Cayman for the whole time. You'll learn a whole load without putting any wear and tear on your car at all.

Rob, Thanks for the input, I've heard rumours that Bruntingthorpe has only been "swept" once in years! I have done a half day session at Porsche Silverstone which was great but over in a flash, I may do one of their "you-drive" sessions where you take your own car, the set up they have their is not overly impacting on the car (low friction and wet surfaces with the exception of the outer perimeter track with all the cambers/corners).