What should I have done differently?
Discussion
On Wednesday I was heading W along the A303 - a road I've never driven, when at this
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
roundabout I had a nasty surpise. I was in lane 1 of the dual carriageway and wanted to take the 3rd exit to continue on the A303. A shiny old (two versions ago) Honda Civic - as often driven by very elderly people - was about two car lengths ahead of me in lane 2 as it approached the roundabout and continued in that lane onto the roundabout, both of us travelling at the same speed. As I was coming up to the second exit (Harp Road) it suddenly, without as far as I recall, indicating, went straight across me and took the exit. Fortunately there was sufficient room and as I applied the brakes it was already almost past, so the only effect was the adrenalin rush 10 seconds later! I realise now that I wasn't indicating right, and probably don't usually do so on a roundabout, but rely on positioning and indicate left once I've passed the exit before the one I'm planning to take. For roundabouts I know I position myself in the appropriate lane as I approach - and this could, I suggest, be either lane 1 or 2 for this roundabout. Most traffic uses both, judging by the colour of the tarmac on Google satellite view. Should I have been only in lane 2? Though it is the 3rd exit, it is at about 1'oclock. If I was going to do it again, I would probably use lane 2 and indicate left once I was drawing level with exit 2. The Civic driver couldn't have thought I was aware that they were going to take the second exit and was planning to exit it with them, as it is a single carriageway.
Constructive advice rather than flaming please.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
roundabout I had a nasty surpise. I was in lane 1 of the dual carriageway and wanted to take the 3rd exit to continue on the A303. A shiny old (two versions ago) Honda Civic - as often driven by very elderly people - was about two car lengths ahead of me in lane 2 as it approached the roundabout and continued in that lane onto the roundabout, both of us travelling at the same speed. As I was coming up to the second exit (Harp Road) it suddenly, without as far as I recall, indicating, went straight across me and took the exit. Fortunately there was sufficient room and as I applied the brakes it was already almost past, so the only effect was the adrenalin rush 10 seconds later! I realise now that I wasn't indicating right, and probably don't usually do so on a roundabout, but rely on positioning and indicate left once I've passed the exit before the one I'm planning to take. For roundabouts I know I position myself in the appropriate lane as I approach - and this could, I suggest, be either lane 1 or 2 for this roundabout. Most traffic uses both, judging by the colour of the tarmac on Google satellite view. Should I have been only in lane 2? Though it is the 3rd exit, it is at about 1'oclock. If I was going to do it again, I would probably use lane 2 and indicate left once I was drawing level with exit 2. The Civic driver couldn't have thought I was aware that they were going to take the second exit and was planning to exit it with them, as it is a single carriageway.
Constructive advice rather than flaming please.
Edited by nomisesor on Saturday 15th May 11:17
Thanks, and if I was to return, knowing the layout that's what I'd do - I expect it was seeing on the approach sign that the 303 exit was almost straight ahead that I had decided (probably without analysing it sufficiently) to stay in lane 1. Any thoughts aboout indicating on roundabouts?
nomisesor said:
Thanks, and if I was to return, knowing the layout that's what I'd do - I expect it was seeing on the approach sign that the 303 exit was almost straight ahead that I had decided (probably without analysing it sufficiently) to stay in lane 1. Any thoughts aboout indicating on roundabouts?
Each depends on the lay out, but at that I'd have initially been indicating right (it's past second exit or 12 O'clock) & then left approaching the exit. I'd also make sure that I was navigating it with a gap to my left side.Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th May 11:40
nomisesor said:
Any thoughts aboout indicating on roundabouts?
Yes! Unless going straight on, you should always indicate on approach to tell other road users where you are going. 
. Drivers not indicating their intentions is a bane of modern life, imo.In this particular case though, I would have been in lane 2 and indicating right, and i would not have gone too close to the Civic.
I make an effort to never put myself in a position i can't get out of, so therefore i make every effort to not be alongside anyone at roundabouts.
In fairness to the Civic driver, he was indicating his intention to go straight on by not indicating, but i think because you have got yourself completely confused about indicating on approach to roundabouts, you've become unable to interpret other people's intentions.
Legally, his only mistake was to not signal left as he passed exit 1, but if you had got tangled up with someone just for this one error, then it is bad driving on your part.
Advice given in all friendliness, with no flaming intended.
heebeegeetee said:
nomisesor said:
Any thoughts aboout indicating on roundabouts?
Yes! Unless going straight on, you should always indicate on approach to tell other road users where you are going. . Drivers not indicating their intentions is a bane of modern life, imo.In this particular case though, I would have been in lane 2 and indicating right, and i would not have gone too close to the Civic.
I make an effort to never put myself in a position i can't get out of, so therefore i make every effort to not be alongside anyone at roundabouts.
In fairness to the Civic driver, he was indicating his intention to go straight on by not indicating, but i think because you have got yourself completely confused about indicating on approach to roundabouts, you've become unable to interpret other people's intentions.
Legally, his only mistake was to not signal left as he passed exit 1, but if you had got tangled up with someone just for this one error, then it is bad driving on your part.
Advice given in all friendliness, with no flaming intended.
What I do out of habit and am now questioning is on a similar roundabout I consider what is on that one the A303 to be straight on, so would go round in the left hand lane with no indicator until I'd passed Harp Road.
Or to display it on the roundabout I'm talking about, I would head northbound on Station Road onto the A6120 in the left hand lane. By the way, this is fairly common practice around here, but it has started to feel a bit wrong to me.
number2301 said:
heebeegeetee said:
nomisesor said:
Any thoughts aboout indicating on roundabouts?
Yes! Unless going straight on, you should always indicate on approach to tell other road users where you are going. . Drivers not indicating their intentions is a bane of modern life, imo.In this particular case though, I would have been in lane 2 and indicating right, and i would not have gone too close to the Civic.
I make an effort to never put myself in a position i can't get out of, so therefore i make every effort to not be alongside anyone at roundabouts.
In fairness to the Civic driver, he was indicating his intention to go straight on by not indicating, but i think because you have got yourself completely confused about indicating on approach to roundabouts, you've become unable to interpret other people's intentions.
Legally, his only mistake was to not signal left as he passed exit 1, but if you had got tangled up with someone just for this one error, then it is bad driving on your part.
Advice given in all friendliness, with no flaming intended.
What I do out of habit and am now questioning is on a similar roundabout I consider what is on that one the A303 to be straight on, so would go round in the left hand lane with no indicator until I'd passed Harp Road.
Or to display it on the roundabout I'm talking about, I would head northbound on Station Road onto the A6120 in the left hand lane. By the way, this is fairly common practice around here, but it has started to feel a bit wrong to me.
Ideally you want to avoid pulling across the front of those who wish to take the exit & you want to get to the outside in good time/space when it comes to taking your exit.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th May 15:46
Well this is the road sign on the approach.....
Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
Edited to say... this is further onto the roundabout, so some confusing road markings if you're in the right hand lane heading for the 303...
Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
Edited to say... this is further onto the roundabout, so some confusing road markings if you're in the right hand lane heading for the 303...
Edited by CivicMan on Saturday 15th May 21:56
I now treat all large roundabouts with caution, the use of traffic lights and road markings which don't always make sense seem to me make the chance of a low speed collision greater.
I find It better never to be along side another vehicle for long if there is the possibility of confusion.
I find It better never to be along side another vehicle for long if there is the possibility of confusion.
Same here, best to just be clear of other cars, so either get ahead or stay behind. Don't assume had you indicated they would have seen it, or not cut across you even if you were in the right lane!
Only way to avoid conflict is to not leave yourself in someone elses path or possible path, and that's fairly easy at low speed on a roundabout!
Only way to avoid conflict is to not leave yourself in someone elses path or possible path, and that's fairly easy at low speed on a roundabout!
CivicMan said:
Well this is the road sign on the approach.....
Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
Having seen that, definitely lane 2 on approach. There are 2 exits before the A303, and it could reasonably be expected that others would be leaving the roundabout at either of them (but not from lane 2 - I'm with you on that one!)Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
CivicMan said:
Well this is the road sign on the approach.....
Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
Having seen that, definitely lane 2 on approach. There are 2 exits before the A303, and it could reasonably be expected that others would be leaving the roundabout at either of them (but not from lane 2 - I'm with you on that one!)Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
Well, thanks for comments - embarrassing and a useful learning exercise, especially now that I have seen the sign in street view, rather than the roundabout from above. I think that it was the combination of a new road to me and three errors. a) - simply not taking in the sign and thinking ahead, so failing to move into lane 2 for the approach, b) - assuming that the 303 beyond the roundabout would be dual carriageway as well, which probably influenced my assumption that someone in lane 2 would be going what, having failed to assess the sign properly, I probably felt that was "straight ahead" on the 303. I was therefore unprepared for the civic's manouvre regardless of whether it indicated, c) reacting to the civic moving across by braking when there wasn't actually a need to, as I doubt I slowed significantly by the time it had crossed my path. Though people have interpreted my description as being alongside it, I was about 2 car lengths behind - otherwise it wouldn't have been able to exit without a collision!
I agree that indicators are important (and I do use them, honest) but could they be misinterpreted when on larger roundabouts - say there is a 3 lane carriageway going into a 3 lane roundabout with the same set of angled exits as the one under discussion, and say exit 1 is single, 2 a dual and 3 a continuation of the main road as a triple carriageway at 1 o'clock. If you wanted to exit at 3, I suggest it would be reasonable to be in lane 2 (or possibly 3 if there were three lanes out at exit 3 and it would be difficult for cars entering from exit 1 or 2 to have time to join if you were already on the roundabout). Would you indicate right as you came close to the roundabout, and as you went past exits 1 & 2, then switch to a left indication? Would other road users near you on the approach understand (if they saw and weren't looking right at that moment) that you wanted to remain in lane 2 but were just indicating your intention of not exiting at exit 1 or 2, or would they think that you were going to move to lane 3 as you entered the roundabout or when they were behind and to the right of you in lane 3 as they were starting to circumnavigate it?
I'll have another look at the highway code & driver's handbook and remind myself to practice better observation in future :-(
This has shown the value of google maps and street view to revisit places where one has made a mistake.
I agree that indicators are important (and I do use them, honest) but could they be misinterpreted when on larger roundabouts - say there is a 3 lane carriageway going into a 3 lane roundabout with the same set of angled exits as the one under discussion, and say exit 1 is single, 2 a dual and 3 a continuation of the main road as a triple carriageway at 1 o'clock. If you wanted to exit at 3, I suggest it would be reasonable to be in lane 2 (or possibly 3 if there were three lanes out at exit 3 and it would be difficult for cars entering from exit 1 or 2 to have time to join if you were already on the roundabout). Would you indicate right as you came close to the roundabout, and as you went past exits 1 & 2, then switch to a left indication? Would other road users near you on the approach understand (if they saw and weren't looking right at that moment) that you wanted to remain in lane 2 but were just indicating your intention of not exiting at exit 1 or 2, or would they think that you were going to move to lane 3 as you entered the roundabout or when they were behind and to the right of you in lane 3 as they were starting to circumnavigate it?
I'll have another look at the highway code & driver's handbook and remind myself to practice better observation in future :-(
This has shown the value of google maps and street view to revisit places where one has made a mistake.
Edited by nomisesor on Sunday 16th May 01:53
On a roundabout like that, with two lanes on and two lanes off - and where you're staying on the same road, with no signs or road markings/instructions to the contrary I don't see that you did anything wrong. The other driver was in the wrong lane, and its because of the regularity of this occurring that you shouldn't go alongside someone on a roundabout. Alot of people take the wrong lanes onto a roundabout or straightline so its a sensible precaution to take.
Personally I wouldn't have indicated until I was past the exit prior to the one I wanted (as you stated your intention to do.) I can't say if this is roadcraft approved or not, but on a roundabout like that (which is essentially several minor roads joining a dual carriageway) I'd stay in either lane - left or right - and signal just prior to the exit I wanted. Like I say - I'm not sure if this is an approved technique, but its the one that makes sense to me. Too many signals can be misleading - indicating right could mean you plan to take the right exit, or just intend to change lane.
So don't beat yourself up. Apart from leaving enough room to account for lost/confused motorists when on roundabouts, I'd suggest your actions were fine.
Personally I wouldn't have indicated until I was past the exit prior to the one I wanted (as you stated your intention to do.) I can't say if this is roadcraft approved or not, but on a roundabout like that (which is essentially several minor roads joining a dual carriageway) I'd stay in either lane - left or right - and signal just prior to the exit I wanted. Like I say - I'm not sure if this is an approved technique, but its the one that makes sense to me. Too many signals can be misleading - indicating right could mean you plan to take the right exit, or just intend to change lane.
So don't beat yourself up. Apart from leaving enough room to account for lost/confused motorists when on roundabouts, I'd suggest your actions were fine.
Edited by tenohfive on Monday 17th May 12:02
tenohfive said:
On a roundabout like that, with two lanes on and two lanes off - and where you're staying on the same road, with no signs or road markings/instructions to the contrary I don't see that you did anything wrong. The other driver was in the wrong lane, and its because of the regularity of this occurring that you shouldn't go alongside someone on a roundabout. Alot of people take the wrong lanes onto a roundabout or straightline so its a sensible precaution to take.
Agree with this. Bold positioning is the key - don't hover next to, or just behind someone. Keep ahead of them so they can see you.parapaul said:
CivicMan said:
Well this is the road sign on the approach.....
Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
Having seen that, definitely lane 2 on approach. There are 2 exits before the A303, and it could reasonably be expected that others would be leaving the roundabout at either of them (but not from lane 2 - I'm with you on that one!)Tells me the exit on to the 303 is off to the right, so I'd be in the right hand lane on the approach.
) notified him of my presence. On a serious note that looks like a well trodden tourist route. We all have to make instant decisions & all (except the perfect drivers of course) make mistakes. IMO the op did fine; he maintained space & anticipated the actions of other road users, well done.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff