Four wheel drive - adapting my driving style
Discussion
Looking for some gentle advice chaps 
I just picked up a classic impreza turbo for a bit of (very) cheap fun and have been reading contemporary roadtests in old issues of Performance Car and Evo. They both make repeated reference to having to drive the car in a particular manner to get the best from the 4x4 system.
I've got about 13 years experience of driving, mostly fwd. I've also got a mk 5 Golf R32 which, to be honest, doesn't feel that much different to powerful fwd cars I've driven. I've owned a few RWD cars (VX220 Turbo and W211 diesel E320 most notably) and have done 2 or 3 track days and 3 1-hour instruction sessions , all at Knockhill. I've felt reasonably comfortable driving RWD, both on road and track. I'm very much still a beginner at the track stuff and, as much as I enjoy it, am nowhere near as smooth or as quick as I would like to be.
Anyway, I digress.
I've only had the Impreza a few days and have done about 400 miles so far. Have been making an effort to drive roads I know really well to try and learn a bit more about the car and to see what works. I think I'm probably just driving it as if it were FWD. In fairness, it's going pretty well (or, at least, I think it is) and it feels reasonably smooth. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something because I'm not used to it and don't really know what to expect.
I've found it does start to lose grip at the front end, especially in the tightest corners but I've not yet provoked a large degree of lift-off oversteer. I have deliberately lifted off a bit to tighten the line and it worked quite nicely. It's not snappy. I've not had the balls to stamp on the throttle to try and induce power oversteer...
Any tips?
I'm not looking for lairy rally-style slides, just tips to make the car work smoothly and to try and get the best from it (as far as my fists of ham could manage, that is.)
Cheers,
Iain
I just picked up a classic impreza turbo for a bit of (very) cheap fun and have been reading contemporary roadtests in old issues of Performance Car and Evo. They both make repeated reference to having to drive the car in a particular manner to get the best from the 4x4 system.
I've got about 13 years experience of driving, mostly fwd. I've also got a mk 5 Golf R32 which, to be honest, doesn't feel that much different to powerful fwd cars I've driven. I've owned a few RWD cars (VX220 Turbo and W211 diesel E320 most notably) and have done 2 or 3 track days and 3 1-hour instruction sessions , all at Knockhill. I've felt reasonably comfortable driving RWD, both on road and track. I'm very much still a beginner at the track stuff and, as much as I enjoy it, am nowhere near as smooth or as quick as I would like to be.
Anyway, I digress.
I've only had the Impreza a few days and have done about 400 miles so far. Have been making an effort to drive roads I know really well to try and learn a bit more about the car and to see what works. I think I'm probably just driving it as if it were FWD. In fairness, it's going pretty well (or, at least, I think it is) and it feels reasonably smooth. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something because I'm not used to it and don't really know what to expect.
I've found it does start to lose grip at the front end, especially in the tightest corners but I've not yet provoked a large degree of lift-off oversteer. I have deliberately lifted off a bit to tighten the line and it worked quite nicely. It's not snappy. I've not had the balls to stamp on the throttle to try and induce power oversteer...
Any tips?
I'm not looking for lairy rally-style slides, just tips to make the car work smoothly and to try and get the best from it (as far as my fists of ham could manage, that is.)
Cheers,
Iain
I used to run a standard Classic Turbo and consider it the best car I've owned but 'company car forces sale' and all that.
In terms of handling, I always found that it was set up to be very like a front wheel drive car, i.e. a natural tendency to understeer. The only times I found oversteer were on track days when I tried v hard to provoke it! It's apparently easy to change the balance to something more neutral to oversteery with approriate suspension mods but for road use I always thought Subaru had got it right. It's a very safe set up in that it's predictable and progressive, allowing rapid progress without drama.
The main and obvious difference compared to a fwd car is the traction which allows you to accelerate out of corners, junctions, roundabouts, etc. much sooner than with 2 wheel drive. Indeed, this is its main party trick: the ability to get up and go without drama while others are still thinking about it. I never quite got used to the gaps I would open out over other cars when leaving roundabouts, even though we were all travelling at similar speeds on the way in. And that was without conciously trying. I miss it!
In terms of handling, I always found that it was set up to be very like a front wheel drive car, i.e. a natural tendency to understeer. The only times I found oversteer were on track days when I tried v hard to provoke it! It's apparently easy to change the balance to something more neutral to oversteery with approriate suspension mods but for road use I always thought Subaru had got it right. It's a very safe set up in that it's predictable and progressive, allowing rapid progress without drama.
The main and obvious difference compared to a fwd car is the traction which allows you to accelerate out of corners, junctions, roundabouts, etc. much sooner than with 2 wheel drive. Indeed, this is its main party trick: the ability to get up and go without drama while others are still thinking about it. I never quite got used to the gaps I would open out over other cars when leaving roundabouts, even though we were all travelling at similar speeds on the way in. And that was without conciously trying. I miss it!
Imprezas have, as standard, more suspension geometry adjustment than your average road car.
It's worth finding an Impreza specialist near to you with 4 wheel alignment equipment and having the geometry set to something near to what is called the "Prodrive settings". As long as you don't do lots of motorway miles.
A good specialist will drive your car to find out how it's behaving, then make suggestions taking into account your views. It's not cheap though.
Oh and as above, it's the traction that makes them perform.
Which means, to be a bit AD to you, they can feel invincible, they are not, as countless folk have found.
As we here tend to say, you sure there's plently of space on the public roads for experiments with oversteer, understeer and powerslides?
It's worth finding an Impreza specialist near to you with 4 wheel alignment equipment and having the geometry set to something near to what is called the "Prodrive settings". As long as you don't do lots of motorway miles.
A good specialist will drive your car to find out how it's behaving, then make suggestions taking into account your views. It's not cheap though.
Oh and as above, it's the traction that makes them perform.
Which means, to be a bit AD to you, they can feel invincible, they are not, as countless folk have found.
As we here tend to say, you sure there's plently of space on the public roads for experiments with oversteer, understeer and powerslides?
Drive it like your 4WD Golf R32?
My 2005 Impreza WRX would not oversteer under power on a dry road (nary a chirrup from the tyres on a wet road either!) Imprezas will slide, but need provocation (trail braking, a flick, etc); but you can get on the power much earlier than a FWD car without as much risk of power understeer.
My 2005 Impreza WRX would not oversteer under power on a dry road (nary a chirrup from the tyres on a wet road either!) Imprezas will slide, but need provocation (trail braking, a flick, etc); but you can get on the power much earlier than a FWD car without as much risk of power understeer.
The Golf R32 is probably an on-demand haldex system (correct me if I'm wrong) which is basically FWD until the front wheels lose traction and then power is transferred rearward. The Impreza is a 50:50 F:R full-time 4wd setup so should behave more neutrally than the Golf and give your more options driving-wise.
I swap back and forward between 4wd and Rwd (Legacy GTB and MX5) pretty often, couple of hints might help:
they really are very competent cross-country devices.
I swap back and forward between 4wd and Rwd (Legacy GTB and MX5) pretty often, couple of hints might help:
- You can often carry braking later into the corner with 4wd to help get the nose tucked in nicely - I'm not talking full-on trailbraking, just using the brakes subtly to trim the balance of the car. When I first got an MX5 I found myself (briefly) locking an inside front wheel into tight corners when pushing hard because I was so used to a 4wd driving style.
- You can get on the power much earlier than you would with Fwd (or Rwd depending on conditions) - use this to your advantage as the car is most stable and settled with some power applied. Stay balanced on the power, keep the steering smooth and let the car do the work. You need crap tyres and/or a very slippery road/loose surface to induce power oversteer so don't worry too much on that front.
they really are very competent cross-country devices.Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 11th May 08:01
Lefty 200 Drams said:
Ben, that's helpful, thanks.
And, yes, you're quite right that the R32 is Haldex and whilst it works pretty well in very wet or icy conditions it feels very much like FWD 99% of the time (not ideal with a ruddy great v6 over the front axle).
I owned a '99 Impreza Turbo for a year or so, running around 250 bhp initially on standard suspension, later with STI 5 suspension, Whiteline front and rear adjustable ARBs (I forget the diameter but the thickest available), Whiteline droplinks, Whiteline anti-lift kit and geometry on a fast road setup (which essentially translated as as oversteery as we could make it).And, yes, you're quite right that the R32 is Haldex and whilst it works pretty well in very wet or icy conditions it feels very much like FWD 99% of the time (not ideal with a ruddy great v6 over the front axle).
The car as standard was very competent but, to me, unexciting. Understeer was pretty much the only option, it could be neutralised by lifting or trail braking but never really turned into anything that required any correction.
After mods it suited my driving style much better. Understeer was pretty much non-existant as long as you didn't drive to provoke it and it retained a friendly, non-snappy quality. Power oversteer was pretty much unobtainable unless the car was either on a loose surface or it was deliverately flicked into a corner on the brakes and then as soon as it started to slide you jumped on the power; even then it was more of a four wheel drift.
The only problem I never really resolved was getting the setup correct between wet and dry. If the ARBs where setup in a manner which had it as tail happy as I like in the dry then the front end was far too stiff to allow any roll moment in the wet which resulted in not enough weight transfer side to side at the front and rather unpleasant and unpredictable understeer. I'm sure with more time I'd have found a solution to this but my situation at the time forced a sale. Ultimately, although I enjoyed owning the car and it was undoubtedly very competent (read easy to drive and damn fast down a B-road) I never really liked it, the driving experience was rather sanitised and lacking in feedback and adjustablity - it was all about power and grip rather than feedback and finesse.
The Impreza was preceeded by a JDM Integra DC2 and succeeded by an MX-5. In my opinion both of these are much more enjoyable drivers cars than the Impreza, despite being (especially the MX5) considerably slower in most circumstances.
GravelBen said:
The Golf R32 is probably an on-demand haldex system (correct me if I'm wrong) which is basically FWD until the front wheels lose traction and then power is transferred rearward. The Impreza is a 50:50 F:R full-time 4wd setup so should behave more neutrally than the Golf and give your more options driving-wise.
I swap back and forward between 4wd and Rwd (Legacy GTB and MX5) pretty often, couple of hints might help:
they really are very competent cross-country devices.
Spot on, Ben!I swap back and forward between 4wd and Rwd (Legacy GTB and MX5) pretty often, couple of hints might help:
- You can often carry braking later into the corner with 4wd to help get the nose tucked in nicely - I'm not talking full-on trailbraking, just using the brakes subtly to trim the balance of the car. When I first got an MX5 I found myself (briefly) locking an inside front wheel into tight corners when pushing hard because I was so used to a 4wd driving style.
- You can get on the power much earlier than you would with Fwd (or Rwd depending on conditions) - use this to your advantage as the car is most stable and settled with some power applied. Stay balanced on the power, keep the steering smooth and let the car do the work. You need crap tyres and/or a very slippery road/loose surface to induce power oversteer so don't worry too much on that front.
they really are very competent cross-country devices.Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 11th May 08:01
I used to own a mk IV R32. Understeering was the major downside, as it is for many VAG cars (engine too far forward). It's largely fixable with good ARBs and a Haldex HPP controller module.
To the OP - have you considered a Car Limits or Don Palmer training day? They will teach you all you need to know about handling your Scooby.
Cant comment on a scooby, but I have a 500hp Audi S4, which is a 50/50 split 4WD system, previous to that I have had a couple Beemers, Minis and a Rover Coupe Turbo.
I wouldnt treat it like the Golf, although doing that will do you no harm, you wont get the best out of car.
Overall it is alot more forgiving, You can quite easily full throttle out of a junction and it will do its thing and launch out of the junction.
You can put the power on alot earlier in the corners.
I also find it is much more forgiving if you are too abrupt with the throttle (for example when lifting off, it will oversteer, but not stupidly, its quite progressive. Which I would put down to the fact that it is removing the power from all 4 wheels.)
I cant comment on suspension mods for a scooby, but my S4 has Eibach Coilovers and uprated H&R antiroll bars (Front set to soft and rear to hard) and it power on oversteers, and when it does, its alot easier to catch/hold than a RWD car, you need less oposite lock to catch it, and you do not need to be as quick to catch it as a rwd car either.
Best thing to do would be to get it on a track and find out the limits, thats what I did, You will be amazed at how much earlier you can acelerate out of corners.
I wouldnt treat it like the Golf, although doing that will do you no harm, you wont get the best out of car.
Overall it is alot more forgiving, You can quite easily full throttle out of a junction and it will do its thing and launch out of the junction.
You can put the power on alot earlier in the corners.
I also find it is much more forgiving if you are too abrupt with the throttle (for example when lifting off, it will oversteer, but not stupidly, its quite progressive. Which I would put down to the fact that it is removing the power from all 4 wheels.)
I cant comment on suspension mods for a scooby, but my S4 has Eibach Coilovers and uprated H&R antiroll bars (Front set to soft and rear to hard) and it power on oversteers, and when it does, its alot easier to catch/hold than a RWD car, you need less oposite lock to catch it, and you do not need to be as quick to catch it as a rwd car either.
Best thing to do would be to get it on a track and find out the limits, thats what I did, You will be amazed at how much earlier you can acelerate out of corners.
loomx said:
...and when it does, its alot easier to catch/hold than a RWD car, you need less oposite lock to catch it, and you do not need to be as quick to catch it as a rwd car either...
A good point - most AWD crashes I've seen (outside of rallying) are a result of applying too much opposite lock and leaving it on for too long, especially when combined with a panicked lift of the throttle. Its quite rare for folk to spin them onto the inside of a corner, much more common to snap back the other way.So it pays to remember that when it hooks up again after a slide, you're going to go where the front wheels are pointing, and you're going there pretty quickly.
Yeh, you really dont need to hold the oposite lock either, just a small flick and some power.
If you have a look on youtube, there is a video of some idiot drifting round a roundabout in an old audi. But its also a very good demonstration of how little oposite lock you need, all 4 wheels are pointing forward 100% of the time.
If you have a look on youtube, there is a video of some idiot drifting round a roundabout in an old audi. But its also a very good demonstration of how little oposite lock you need, all 4 wheels are pointing forward 100% of the time.
Do be a bit careful with tyre pressures - too low & you run a serious risk of ripping it off the rim especially with low profiles. Too soft a tyre will leave the car wallowing like an ocean liner anyway.
That said, I had problems with Michelin off road tyres (can't remember exactly which ones) on my parents' Range Rover Vogue many years ago - LR's recommended pressures were at least 8 PSI too high for the Michelins. It made for a very skittish ride up the motorway...
That said, I had problems with Michelin off road tyres (can't remember exactly which ones) on my parents' Range Rover Vogue many years ago - LR's recommended pressures were at least 8 PSI too high for the Michelins. It made for a very skittish ride up the motorway...
brisel said:
Do be a bit careful with tyre pressures - too low & you run a serious risk of ripping it off the rim especially with low profiles. Too soft a tyre will leave the car wallowing like an ocean liner anyway.
It's really the front to rear difference that I tinker with rather than raising or lowering all 4 together. I something of an epiphany this morning.
I was up early (6-ish) and took my normal route to work - 10 miles of b-roads, 10 miles of dual carriageway, followed by 5 miles of b-road then 5 miles of town driving to get to work.
Roads were quiet and a bit wet but I was unusually focussed (only 1 dram last night y'see).
I've been building up confidence in the Imopreza and did about 2000 miles over the long weekend albeit 3-up with a boot full of camping kit and the worlds biggest roofbox.
Anyway, this morning, I think I had my best ever drive in the Subaru so far.
It really is laughable how soon you can get on the power and it's really very precise compared to my mk5 r32. Similar-ish PWR I suppose but the power delivery is completely different.
The steering is quicker in the Subaru than the Golf which seems to suit my lazy driving style (in the words of Rory Butcher - Knockhill) and, even on crappy NCT5's, it's got so much grip. Easy to push into understeer on these wet bumpy roads but I was surprised that even with my fists of ham I could balance the car reasonably well, tightening the line when needed with the throttle.
It's definitely a car that flatters the average driver - I'm under no illusions of my skill. I've yet to try this trail-braking malarkey - think i need to book another session at kh...
I really need some decent tyres though. I got some 15" group A alloys which I am going to put snow tyres on for the winter (we had snow from 18th December through to the start of April where I live) but I can't decide whether to go up to 17" or stay on 16's for road tyres.
I was up early (6-ish) and took my normal route to work - 10 miles of b-roads, 10 miles of dual carriageway, followed by 5 miles of b-road then 5 miles of town driving to get to work.
Roads were quiet and a bit wet but I was unusually focussed (only 1 dram last night y'see).
I've been building up confidence in the Imopreza and did about 2000 miles over the long weekend albeit 3-up with a boot full of camping kit and the worlds biggest roofbox.
Anyway, this morning, I think I had my best ever drive in the Subaru so far.
It really is laughable how soon you can get on the power and it's really very precise compared to my mk5 r32. Similar-ish PWR I suppose but the power delivery is completely different.
The steering is quicker in the Subaru than the Golf which seems to suit my lazy driving style (in the words of Rory Butcher - Knockhill) and, even on crappy NCT5's, it's got so much grip. Easy to push into understeer on these wet bumpy roads but I was surprised that even with my fists of ham I could balance the car reasonably well, tightening the line when needed with the throttle.
It's definitely a car that flatters the average driver - I'm under no illusions of my skill. I've yet to try this trail-braking malarkey - think i need to book another session at kh...
I really need some decent tyres though. I got some 15" group A alloys which I am going to put snow tyres on for the winter (we had snow from 18th December through to the start of April where I live) but I can't decide whether to go up to 17" or stay on 16's for road tyres.
Glad to hear you're getting on with the car.
16" should let you feel the car move around a bit more with the extra sidewall flex, 17" with lower profile rubber will probably feel a bit more precise and direct but maybe not so playful.
How rough are the roads in your local playground? My Legacy is on the standard 215/45R17 but from time to time I think about swapping to 16" for a bit more wheel protection and puncture resistance on some of the roads I frequent.
16" should let you feel the car move around a bit more with the extra sidewall flex, 17" with lower profile rubber will probably feel a bit more precise and direct but maybe not so playful.
How rough are the roads in your local playground? My Legacy is on the standard 215/45R17 but from time to time I think about swapping to 16" for a bit more wheel protection and puncture resistance on some of the roads I frequent.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 8th June 11:04
They're all bumpy, one in particular is pretty badly potholed unfortunately...
I know that the rb5 had a great setup for road use and I believe the onlty difference suspension-wise was the fitment of 17 alloys... I just missed a set of them on ebay a few weeks back
Problem is, my impreza has the 4-pot calipers (99 model) so apparently not all 17" wheels will fit. Which is odd because the standard 16's do and even these speedline 15's that I got clear the calipers.
I know that the rb5 had a great setup for road use and I believe the onlty difference suspension-wise was the fitment of 17 alloys... I just missed a set of them on ebay a few weeks back
Problem is, my impreza has the 4-pot calipers (99 model) so apparently not all 17" wheels will fit. Which is odd because the standard 16's do and even these speedline 15's that I got clear the calipers.
Used to run my old Turbo ('98 car with Godspeed 4-pots) on 17"s and found they made the car feel more composed, comfortable and sure-footed than the 16"s. There are a fair number of 17" wheels that fit, but as you mentioned, you need to check the wheel offset and caliper clearance before buying. Lots of recommendations over on ScoobyNet.
Chris
Chris
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff