First Performance Car - Driver Training
Discussion
Hi all, I'm about to take delivery of my first 'performance car' (Tuscan) and having never driven anything more powerful than a 328Ci on a regular basis my first thought is towards getting some driver training PDQ. I have about 15 years driving experience, never had an accident, and although I appreciate that doesn't in itself mean I'm a particularly good driver, I think my general road awareness is reasonably sound. So I guess what I'm more keen to do is understand the car's handling and dynamics, where the limits are and that kind of thing. Elvington is pretty local to me and I wondered whether something like this might be a good idea http://www.driverskills.com/driving-courses/highpe... Any advice appreciated.
Sensible fellow. Not sure about the organisation there, but you could probably benefit most from a combination of advanced road techniques plus some vehicle dynamics stuff (although you *shouldn't* need to ever reach the car's limits on the road). After all, most of your driving is going to be on-road.
SS7
SS7
Nice part of the world.
I'd buy Roadcraft (less than a tenner), read it, and then ship myself down to Grantham for a day with Hugh Noblett of Cadence for a day of road driving.
If the cost of that seem high, then I'd buy Roadcraft, join the IAM, then ship myself down to Grantham for a day with Hugh.
You want road based Roadcraft tuition rather than handling days IMHO.
I'd buy Roadcraft (less than a tenner), read it, and then ship myself down to Grantham for a day with Hugh Noblett of Cadence for a day of road driving.
If the cost of that seem high, then I'd buy Roadcraft, join the IAM, then ship myself down to Grantham for a day with Hugh.
You want road based Roadcraft tuition rather than handling days IMHO.
I think Nick might have meant off-road training...
I work for the company mentioned (that's Cadence, rather than Driverskills), so if my experience feels in any way corporate and biased towards my job, feel free to ignore.
Every client that comes to me for the mix of on- and off-road training I deliver generally says that they want to feel what their car is like at the limit and be able to control it. They actually don't - what they really want is to be able to go around corners in a consistent fashion where they are driving the car rather than relying on whatever grip and handling balance has been designed in by default by the engineers. As others have pointed out you shouldn't ever be anywhere near the limits of adhesion on the road so learning l33t limit handling skills (which you won't develop in a half day anyway and generally won't have enough free space or thinking time to employ on the road) isn't as useful a thing as you might imagine.
Given a choice for training I think something with a combination of on- and off-road is excellent - the on-road for perhaps learning a different of thinking about the driving task and the off-road so you can repeat a corner inumerable times until you get the hang of a cornering style that is repeatable, easy to apply and makes you feel like a driving god.
I work for the company mentioned (that's Cadence, rather than Driverskills), so if my experience feels in any way corporate and biased towards my job, feel free to ignore.
Every client that comes to me for the mix of on- and off-road training I deliver generally says that they want to feel what their car is like at the limit and be able to control it. They actually don't - what they really want is to be able to go around corners in a consistent fashion where they are driving the car rather than relying on whatever grip and handling balance has been designed in by default by the engineers. As others have pointed out you shouldn't ever be anywhere near the limits of adhesion on the road so learning l33t limit handling skills (which you won't develop in a half day anyway and generally won't have enough free space or thinking time to employ on the road) isn't as useful a thing as you might imagine.
Given a choice for training I think something with a combination of on- and off-road is excellent - the on-road for perhaps learning a different of thinking about the driving task and the off-road so you can repeat a corner inumerable times until you get the hang of a cornering style that is repeatable, easy to apply and makes you feel like a driving god.
Thank you one and all for very useful advice.
If the consensus is a combination of on road and off road tuition then I'm going to take that advice. I've emailed Cadence for pricing for both the road and track courses.
I get the impression from looking at the respective websites that whilst the Driverskills team are probably a fair bet for track-based training (team comprised mainly of "race and rally drivers"), they're not going to be as good a bet as Cadence at the on-road stuff. Would that be a fair analysis Dave?
Thanks again to all. I really appreciate the advice.
StressedDave said:
I think something with a combination of on- and off-road is excellent - the on-road for perhaps learning a different of thinking about the driving task and the off-road so you can repeat a corner inumerable times until you get the hang of a cornering style that is repeatable, easy to apply and makes you feel like a driving god.
Basically this is exactly what I want to achieve. I have no wish to be able to drive sideways around corners but equally I'd like to be able to enjoy the performance of the car in a safe, controlled way. If the consensus is a combination of on road and off road tuition then I'm going to take that advice. I've emailed Cadence for pricing for both the road and track courses.
I get the impression from looking at the respective websites that whilst the Driverskills team are probably a fair bet for track-based training (team comprised mainly of "race and rally drivers"), they're not going to be as good a bet as Cadence at the on-road stuff. Would that be a fair analysis Dave?
Thanks again to all. I really appreciate the advice.
Edited by 1PMA on Friday 30th April 01:36
Learning not to cross the limit is all very well and good but as you now have a powerful and raw rear wheel drive car you are GOING to cross that limit, its a fact and its human nature.
At least go to someone as well who will demonstrate and teach you what to do when your car gets you into trouble, so you have some idea of how to cope, (although on road may offer you very little time to correct the cars wrongdoing the vast majority of rear wheel drive accidents are caused not by the initial correction to the slide (which is natural) but lack of recognition that the input has been successful leading to overcorrection and a reverse direction slide, usually with even more energy than the first, and whith devastating consequences).
Tuscans can be bad asses especially in the wet, learn about the car as well
At least go to someone as well who will demonstrate and teach you what to do when your car gets you into trouble, so you have some idea of how to cope, (although on road may offer you very little time to correct the cars wrongdoing the vast majority of rear wheel drive accidents are caused not by the initial correction to the slide (which is natural) but lack of recognition that the input has been successful leading to overcorrection and a reverse direction slide, usually with even more energy than the first, and whith devastating consequences).
Tuscans can be bad asses especially in the wet, learn about the car as well
Edited by crisisjez on Saturday 1st May 10:50
crisisjez said:
Learning not to cross the limit is all very well and good but as you now have a powerful and raw rear wheel drive car you are GOING to cross that limit, its a fact and its human nature.
Various points:1 How many people can recover a Tuscan once it gets significantly out of shape in the space available on a public road? I agree with the comments made by StressedD.
2 Millbrook is a fabulous facility, in a completely different league from any airfield based facility. Whether that justifies the extra cost and travelling distance I cannot say.
3 Hugh is good on the proving ground as well as on the road, so if you get on with him during your first session it would probably make sense to go back to him.
Enjoy new car and training!
waremark said:
1 How many people can recover a Tuscan once it gets significantly out of shape in the space available on a public road? I agree with the comments made by StressedD.
Because not all "twitches" lead to an off unless you overcorrect, which you will of course as you'll panic if its never happened to you beforeI do accept a full blown out of shape adventure is down to poor roadcraft, but some cars out there just want to kill you, its part of their attraction and must be understood.
The driver in the below clip had about as much space as most would(assuming no oncoming traffic of course), and the car wasn't significantly out of shape. But he still went in because he didn't know how to drive away from the event
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edQnweRv_Z4&fea...
Edited by crisisjez on Saturday 1st May 18:17
There's some excellent advice here.
The only thing I would comment on is that the limit isn't a line that one suddenly crosses, it's a zone and a good driver will drive sympathetically with the car to recognise the onset of problems and drive around them. What I will say though is exactly what Stressed Dave said, and that's that such skills can't be taught in a short course, they take a while to grasp and need the correct sensitivity and attitude from the driver in the first place.
The only thing I would comment on is that the limit isn't a line that one suddenly crosses, it's a zone and a good driver will drive sympathetically with the car to recognise the onset of problems and drive around them. What I will say though is exactly what Stressed Dave said, and that's that such skills can't be taught in a short course, they take a while to grasp and need the correct sensitivity and attitude from the driver in the first place.
Really good advice above.
I'd recommend a non-road "limit handling"-type day - I did one at carlimits in essex when I got my first TVR, and it was very useful. Only had to correct one "proper" slide on the road, but it definitely helped! Also useful to practice hard braking when you don't have ABS, so some skidpan/low grip surface handling would be useful too.
As mentioned above, on-road advanced driving stuff is at least as important. Personally, I can recommend IAM and RoSPA courses (which are very good value) and, being non-intensive, you can build up skills and get assessed regularly as you improve.
Enjoy the car, take it easy and smooth at first, especially in the wet
PS - Great car choice
I'd recommend a non-road "limit handling"-type day - I did one at carlimits in essex when I got my first TVR, and it was very useful. Only had to correct one "proper" slide on the road, but it definitely helped! Also useful to practice hard braking when you don't have ABS, so some skidpan/low grip surface handling would be useful too.
As mentioned above, on-road advanced driving stuff is at least as important. Personally, I can recommend IAM and RoSPA courses (which are very good value) and, being non-intensive, you can build up skills and get assessed regularly as you improve.
Enjoy the car, take it easy and smooth at first, especially in the wet
PS - Great car choice
Edited by _Neal_ on Saturday 8th May 13:49
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