sayMultiple overtakes.
Discussion
I've been meaning to ask this for a while. Genuine question.
I've noticed that the esteemed IAM members don't condone overtaking any more than one vehicle at a time. (Forgive me if I've got the wrong impression.)
This seems odd to me. Agreed, 'going for' say 5+ vehicles at once may be percieved to be a bit haphazard, (I personally don't think so providing it's executed properly employing appropriate dilligence.), but what's wrong with two or three, particularly as noone seems to grasp the practice of actually leaving gaps between them and the car in front these days?
Thanks in advance.
ETA :- I don't know where that "say" in the title came from! Sausage fingers probably!
I've noticed that the esteemed IAM members don't condone overtaking any more than one vehicle at a time. (Forgive me if I've got the wrong impression.)
This seems odd to me. Agreed, 'going for' say 5+ vehicles at once may be percieved to be a bit haphazard, (I personally don't think so providing it's executed properly employing appropriate dilligence.), but what's wrong with two or three, particularly as noone seems to grasp the practice of actually leaving gaps between them and the car in front these days?
Thanks in advance.
ETA :- I don't know where that "say" in the title came from! Sausage fingers probably!
Edited by Big Rod on Monday 26th April 09:08
I don't personally see anything wrong with it, I passed the IAM test and it's nothing I ever experienced while an instructor was in my car, but as long as it's safe to do so, it's fine. I usually ensure that there's enough space between the vehicles that I could pull into if I felt I couldn't complete the overtaking of all the vehicles, but as you say, sometimes they're travelling too close together for this to be possible 
It's a fairly complex topic as there's potentially a lot going on during an overtake and you're essentially looking to minimise and manage the risks.
So ideally, if you're overtaking multiple cars, you'll want them nicely spaced so you can effectively treat each overtake individually with a nice gap to drop into if circumstances change, eg the next car in your overtake line decides to overtake. Treating them individually doesn't mean changing position or necessarily slowing down, but it means there's a conscious decision to continue or not before you commit to going past each car.
Of course, in the real world, multiple cars aren't always nicely spaced and so if you want to overtake you're looking at multiple cars before you can reach your place of safety. This therefore increases the risks to manage and so before committing you need to be happy that the cars ahead will remain in position (are aware of your presence), and that you have enough road to get to your landing spot for the performance of your car. It's also worth considering the speed differentials as you approach cars further up the line - you want to overtake as briskly as possible, but the higher the differential, the harder it will be to deal with the unexpected, eg when the lead car swerves to avoid the pothole/puddle of water that you couldn't see at the start of the overtake.
Chris
So ideally, if you're overtaking multiple cars, you'll want them nicely spaced so you can effectively treat each overtake individually with a nice gap to drop into if circumstances change, eg the next car in your overtake line decides to overtake. Treating them individually doesn't mean changing position or necessarily slowing down, but it means there's a conscious decision to continue or not before you commit to going past each car.
Of course, in the real world, multiple cars aren't always nicely spaced and so if you want to overtake you're looking at multiple cars before you can reach your place of safety. This therefore increases the risks to manage and so before committing you need to be happy that the cars ahead will remain in position (are aware of your presence), and that you have enough road to get to your landing spot for the performance of your car. It's also worth considering the speed differentials as you approach cars further up the line - you want to overtake as briskly as possible, but the higher the differential, the harder it will be to deal with the unexpected, eg when the lead car swerves to avoid the pothole/puddle of water that you couldn't see at the start of the overtake.
Chris
AyBee said:
I don't personally see anything wrong with it, I passed the IAM test and it's nothing I ever experienced while an instructor was in my car
One of the restrictions of observed drives is the number of opportunities to overtake a single car, let alone multiple ones, is minimal and sadly as a result overtaking is a very underdeveloped skill.One of the suggestions for addressing this that a group of us were looking into was employing a stooge car to allow controlled overtaking scenarios to be worked through, although it's still being fine tuned before it's tried out on associates!
Chris
Where you've blinkered numpties tailgating each other, what's the difference between treating 2 (or even 3) of them the same as you would 1 HGV or coach? Footprint is similar...the only increase in risk is you've twice (3x) as many people making potentially stupid decisions to your left.
havoc said:
Where you've blinkered numpties tailgating each other, what's the difference between treating 2 (or even 3) of them the same as you would 1 HGV or coach? Footprint is similar...the only increase in risk is you've twice (3x) as many people making potentially stupid decisions to your left.
I think you've highlighted the main difference. Basically you're introducing unknowns (and with it a potentially large increase in risk) that needs to be managed. So if you're looking at overtaking 2 or 3 cars, you have to make sure that everyone you're planning on overtaking is aware you're there and knows what you're intenting to do. If they are, then all well and good, if they're not can you safely commit?The other thing to consider is that from that far back, you may not be able to see the condition of the tarmac in the landing spot which may be a factor influencing whether it's safe to commit (of course if you have miles of clear road ahead of you, you can be a bit less fussy as you can stay offside until you find a piece of road you like to return to)
Chris
havoc said:
Where you've blinkered numpties tailgating each other, what's the difference between treating 2 (or even 3) of them the same as you would 1 HGV or coach?
It's rare that the mid-section of a coach lurches out and tries to overtake the front section or that it turns right without signalling. The trouble is the point where you are happy with a three-car overtake, it is likely to be a good enough view that one of the other cars will suddenly think an overtake is a good idea too. If they don't and you can pass safely then I see no reason not to go on your merry way.
Big Rod said:
I've noticed that the esteemed IAM members don't condone overtaking any more than one vehicle at a time.
Where did you notice that?There's no law against multiple overtakes. It's true, though, that if you observe safety considerations and speed limits the opportunity doesn't arise that often.
Whilst overtaking more than, say, 3 cars in one hit can be a little 'risky' there is nothing wrong with it in principle, it does present a few difficulties which need to be managed.
These will be numerous but a couple of basics are,
Speed. If the overtakee's are doing nearly 60mph say the temptation to continue past the posted limit to complete the overtake becomes tempting. Not a problem but would fail an IAM exam.
Gearchanges. Keeping these controlled + smooth with the added pressure of an oncoming vehicle - this becomes harder. Next time you are overtaking and find you need a gearchange whilst on the other side of the road, just take in how smooth it 'isn't'. LOL.
The real flair comes if you can pick off cars in 1's or 2's, slotting in the gaps in a line of moving traffic, throttling off in time that you do not have to use the brakes to slow...
These will be numerous but a couple of basics are,
Speed. If the overtakee's are doing nearly 60mph say the temptation to continue past the posted limit to complete the overtake becomes tempting. Not a problem but would fail an IAM exam.
Gearchanges. Keeping these controlled + smooth with the added pressure of an oncoming vehicle - this becomes harder. Next time you are overtaking and find you need a gearchange whilst on the other side of the road, just take in how smooth it 'isn't'. LOL.
The real flair comes if you can pick off cars in 1's or 2's, slotting in the gaps in a line of moving traffic, throttling off in time that you do not have to use the brakes to slow...
7db said:
The trouble is the point where you are happy with a three-car overtake, it is likely to be a good enough view that one of the other cars will suddenly think an overtake is a good idea too. If they don't and you can pass safely then I see no reason not to go on your merry way.
I know what you mean...although in my experience so few people overtake now that if you've given a sensible pause-before-commit, you should know the intentions of the cars ahead of you. That, plus a couple of safety precautions:-
- Turn lights on as you move out - the part of the brain which detects movement will pick up on a car turning it's lights on in your wingmirror more readily than a car already with them on!
- Have an escape route if possible (typically I'll only overtake multiples on wide A-roads)
- Keep one thumb close to the horn button!
havoc said:
I know what you mean...although in my experience so few people overtake now that if you've given a sensible pause-before-commit, you should know the intentions of the cars ahead of you.
It could be that someone who's been dithering about an overtake sees you overtaking and thinks "if he thinks it's safe, it must be" and pulls out on you Some good points below though, and I've added a couple of thoughts...havoc said:
- Turn lights on as you move out - the part of the brain which detects movement will pick up on a car turning it's lights on in your wingmirror more readily than a car already with them on!
How effective do you think this is during daylight? What would you do at night where there wouldn't be a change in lights? Would main beam offer more guarantees of being seen in each case?havoc said:
- Have an escape route if possible (typically I'll only overtake multiples on wide A-roads)
Escape routes are always good. havoc said:
- Keep one thumb close to the horn button!
How audible do you think the horn is at NSL sort of speeds?Chris
ScoobyChris said:
How effective do you think this is during daylight? What would you do at night where there wouldn't be a change in lights? Would main beam offer more guarantees of being seen in each case?
...
How audible do you think the horn is at NSL sort of speeds?
Daylight - probably depends on the conditions - i.e. if bright sunlight reflecting off a lot of surfaces, then possibly not-so-much....
How audible do you think the horn is at NSL sort of speeds?
Night - I'm always more cautious when overtaking at night because you've so much less information coming to you. Probably wouldn't even think of a multiple at night unless I was convinced it was do-able.
Main-beam - two-edged sword - they'd definitely see you, but they might think you're a cock, or they might get 'spooked' and react unpredictably. Ditto 'flashing' just after you've pulled out - you might give someone the wrong message.
Horn - I'd imagine that at close proximity (i.e. your bonnet just behind their right ear), it's pretty audible unless they've the stereo set to 11.
I don't think there's any right answer, just risk-mitigation strategies and individual attitudes towards (and judgements of) risk. Simply driving a car is risky...each person will have a point at which the risk-level gets too high.
The biggest multiple overtake I did was ~8 or 9 cars behind a (slow) tanker on the way down to Brackley (from Banbury) - pulled out, started, saw that no-one else was going so nailed it, turned my lights on, moved right across to the off-side, and flashed my lights a few times as my speed increased. Probably wasn't the safest manoeuvre I've ever done, but I tried to make it as safe as possible.
Looked in my mirror afterwards and not one other person had overtaken!
It seems the general concencus (sp) is that if you overtake you are the spawn of satan and an utter lunatic.
On my way to work there are a few wide nsl "A" roads so 60mph limit, sooooooooo many people poodle along at 40ish, when I overtake I get all sort of hand signals/ flashing headlights and also it seems to mean that I have a small co*k apparently. It really winds me up, I have not impeded your journey in any way nor have I put anyone in any sort of danger so what is the problem with me overtaking you?
My Dad lives in Mallorca and there is a totally different attitude to overtaking there, it seems to be a case of do what you want as long as I don't have to slow down, I wonder why we don't have a similar attitude and a stigmatism seems to surround the whole idea of overtaking.
On my way to work there are a few wide nsl "A" roads so 60mph limit, sooooooooo many people poodle along at 40ish, when I overtake I get all sort of hand signals/ flashing headlights and also it seems to mean that I have a small co*k apparently. It really winds me up, I have not impeded your journey in any way nor have I put anyone in any sort of danger so what is the problem with me overtaking you?
My Dad lives in Mallorca and there is a totally different attitude to overtaking there, it seems to be a case of do what you want as long as I don't have to slow down, I wonder why we don't have a similar attitude and a stigmatism seems to surround the whole idea of overtaking.
Z.B said:
Big Rod said:
I've noticed that the esteemed IAM members don't condone overtaking any more than one vehicle at a time.
Where did you notice that?Z.B said:
There's no law against multiple overtakes. It's true, though, that if you observe safety considerations and speed limits the opportunity doesn't arise that often.
I know. I was just wondering why the contributors on the other thread weren't proponents of the manouvre.havoc said:
- Turn lights on as you move out - the part of the brain which detects movement will pick up on a car turning it's lights on in your wingmirror more readily than a car already with them on!
Since an altercation with another motorist who thought it would be a good idea to pull out without checking his mirrors while I was overtaking him I use my lights nowadays.I usually give a couple of flashes when changing lanes and if I am overtaking multiples I'll keep that up until I'm clear of any potential conflicts.
It does upset some people sometimes, but I'm just using the lights for what they were intended, making people aware of my position and intentions.
Big Rod said:
havoc said:
- Turn lights on as you move out - the part of the brain which detects movement will pick up on a car turning it's lights on in your wingmirror more readily than a car already with them on!
Since an altercation with another motorist who thought it would be a good idea to pull out without checking his mirrors while I was overtaking him I use my lights nowadays.I usually give a couple of flashes when changing lanes and if I am overtaking multiples I'll keep that up until I'm clear of any potential conflicts.
It does upset some people sometimes, but I'm just using the lights for what they were intended, making people aware of my position and intentions.
Now I know what the Highway Code says about flashing so quoting it would be pointless, a good driver would consider all the post driving modifications to the HC that have been embraced by motorists and include them in their planning.
I'd be pissed off too if some cock was relentlessly pulling on his flasher as he overtook me, and tob I don't think thats what the HC had in mind either, I think you are supposed to wait for a dangerous situation to materialise THEN warn, not scattergun the whole bloody road just in case
crisisjez said:
Problem with that tactic is that 95% of motorists will consider a flash of headlight as an invitation, not a warning.
I take your point, but (and I know this is perhaps expecting too much really), if they have been alerted to my position, then there's a better chance that they'll pay attention and appreciate my intention.I have nothing of any value to add but just wanted to say thanks for a very interesting read, some very good advice. Oh and also that this...
7db said:
It's rare that the mid-section of a coach lurches out and tries to overtake the front section or that it turns right without signalling.
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