dreading 'cow milking'
Discussion
I am considering going for IAM or RoSPA training as I was thinking about returning to motorcycling. I then had the idea of improving my car driving too. As I won't get a motorcycle until next year.
I first started driving at 13 and passed my test 2 weeks after my 17th birthday. That was 28 years ans half a million miles ago. I recall being very enthusiastic aboout it. I had read several books on advanced driving form the local library prior to my test and was minded to take the IAM test soon after. However, my elderly father talked me out of it and concluded his speach by saying 'Look son, when you've been driving as long as I have, you can turn your back on it.' But I hadn't. That was the point. I never did get that logic. Maybe it had more to do with Freud than roadcraft?
So I've had a little look around the forums and still find the idea appealing. I remember enough from the books I read to understand there is a lot I can learn and develop. I would look forward to developing a better system And perhaps a few habits I could lose too!
I am so disappointed to learn that they still adhere to this 'Push-Pull' steering nonsense. Why?
Push-Pull was something that came about in the dark ages of motoring, prior to power steering, prior to rack and pinion, even. Back then it was all steering boxes and steering was heavy. Joe British public was a little non-plussed and someone came up with this method. There have even been programs on the television about this in the 1980's. Even back then senior policemen and racing drivers alike voiced opinions that there was little benefit in modern motoring. Yet it is still practised. If the car was invented today, would such a method ever be drept up?
And when is it used? Usually at very slow speeds. A 3-point turn. Turning off a main road into a side road. Heaven forbid I should lose control of the car doing that. Or maybe I'll forget where the wheels are pointing, but I can feel where they are through the weight on the steering. Go and watch Roadwars on the telly. Class-one Police pursuit drivers, watch their hands, I havent seen one milk a moo cow yet. But I have seen them with their palm flat on the wheel turning a corner.
My old neihbours were both IAM, they'd reverse off the drive and sit stationary in the middle of the road milking, cus that was the way you had to do it. Why? Whats the car going to do while its stood still?
I accept raw learners won't yet have developed this ability and as a training aid it may have some uses. But am I expected to resight the alphabet before I take an A-level English exam?
I have read in this forum about people discussing at what speed they should change from second to third. I recall conversations like this with my mates when I was 17. Whats wrong with assesing the road conditions and the feel of the car? If its a 30mph limit as nearly the majority of roads are, or even a 40, why would you go that high in second? What do need that extra accelerative capacity for, other than a possible endorsement. And what are you going to do with 3rd when you've hit the legal speed limit in second?
I want to better my ability to progress a vehicle safely and smoothly. Not adhere to a set of rules for the sake of it. Or to enhance someone else's sense of power. And thats whats wrong these days. Its all about ticking boxes, in an overly prescriptive society. What happened to judgement? I did some chaufer work whilst at University. My boss who ran a coach garage was an ex-PSV instructor. A charming and colorful Irishman who coached my driving and would say 'rules and regulations, are for the guidance of wise men and the obeyance of fools.' What happened to that?
I read other posts and learn of senior members disaffectedness with dogma amoung other things. I can believe it.
So, my questions are;
How does the IAM or other hope to attract experianced drivers who have a geuine will to improve, when it seeks to force them into a mould? I have read that the NQF level 3 motorcycling sets out not to do exactly this, but is it available for cars?
Should I conform, bite my tongue and take from it what is good?
Or is the Institution merely a vehicle for the analy pre-disposed?
I first started driving at 13 and passed my test 2 weeks after my 17th birthday. That was 28 years ans half a million miles ago. I recall being very enthusiastic aboout it. I had read several books on advanced driving form the local library prior to my test and was minded to take the IAM test soon after. However, my elderly father talked me out of it and concluded his speach by saying 'Look son, when you've been driving as long as I have, you can turn your back on it.' But I hadn't. That was the point. I never did get that logic. Maybe it had more to do with Freud than roadcraft?
So I've had a little look around the forums and still find the idea appealing. I remember enough from the books I read to understand there is a lot I can learn and develop. I would look forward to developing a better system And perhaps a few habits I could lose too!
I am so disappointed to learn that they still adhere to this 'Push-Pull' steering nonsense. Why?
Push-Pull was something that came about in the dark ages of motoring, prior to power steering, prior to rack and pinion, even. Back then it was all steering boxes and steering was heavy. Joe British public was a little non-plussed and someone came up with this method. There have even been programs on the television about this in the 1980's. Even back then senior policemen and racing drivers alike voiced opinions that there was little benefit in modern motoring. Yet it is still practised. If the car was invented today, would such a method ever be drept up?
And when is it used? Usually at very slow speeds. A 3-point turn. Turning off a main road into a side road. Heaven forbid I should lose control of the car doing that. Or maybe I'll forget where the wheels are pointing, but I can feel where they are through the weight on the steering. Go and watch Roadwars on the telly. Class-one Police pursuit drivers, watch their hands, I havent seen one milk a moo cow yet. But I have seen them with their palm flat on the wheel turning a corner.
My old neihbours were both IAM, they'd reverse off the drive and sit stationary in the middle of the road milking, cus that was the way you had to do it. Why? Whats the car going to do while its stood still?
I accept raw learners won't yet have developed this ability and as a training aid it may have some uses. But am I expected to resight the alphabet before I take an A-level English exam?
I have read in this forum about people discussing at what speed they should change from second to third. I recall conversations like this with my mates when I was 17. Whats wrong with assesing the road conditions and the feel of the car? If its a 30mph limit as nearly the majority of roads are, or even a 40, why would you go that high in second? What do need that extra accelerative capacity for, other than a possible endorsement. And what are you going to do with 3rd when you've hit the legal speed limit in second?
I want to better my ability to progress a vehicle safely and smoothly. Not adhere to a set of rules for the sake of it. Or to enhance someone else's sense of power. And thats whats wrong these days. Its all about ticking boxes, in an overly prescriptive society. What happened to judgement? I did some chaufer work whilst at University. My boss who ran a coach garage was an ex-PSV instructor. A charming and colorful Irishman who coached my driving and would say 'rules and regulations, are for the guidance of wise men and the obeyance of fools.' What happened to that?
I read other posts and learn of senior members disaffectedness with dogma amoung other things. I can believe it.
So, my questions are;
How does the IAM or other hope to attract experianced drivers who have a geuine will to improve, when it seeks to force them into a mould? I have read that the NQF level 3 motorcycling sets out not to do exactly this, but is it available for cars?
Should I conform, bite my tongue and take from it what is good?
Or is the Institution merely a vehicle for the analy pre-disposed?
Edited by Rawhide66 on Thursday 15th April 03:57
I'm going to be absolutely straight.
Don't bother.
The whole point of IAM/ROSPA/GEM/Police Driving Course is that you conform to a set of rules. If you don't want to do that then just don't do it.
Honestly. I am an IAM Observer and have done ROSPA. Whilst the System of Car Control is a method that still requires a thinking driver it is still a strict method where each phase of the system must be considered in turn. If you aren't going to do that than you can't pass the test and if you can't pass the test then why bother?
You can be a good driver without passing an Advanced test. Be satisfied with that.
OR
Go in with a completely open mind. Learn everything you are taught. ACCEPT ALL of it. Pass the test...THEN work out what you want to keep.
Don't bother.
The whole point of IAM/ROSPA/GEM/Police Driving Course is that you conform to a set of rules. If you don't want to do that then just don't do it.
Honestly. I am an IAM Observer and have done ROSPA. Whilst the System of Car Control is a method that still requires a thinking driver it is still a strict method where each phase of the system must be considered in turn. If you aren't going to do that than you can't pass the test and if you can't pass the test then why bother?
You can be a good driver without passing an Advanced test. Be satisfied with that.
OR
Go in with a completely open mind. Learn everything you are taught. ACCEPT ALL of it. Pass the test...THEN work out what you want to keep.
My advice would be to do the 'Drive Check' course from IAM, it consists of a 40min drive with an observer where you learn a bit of what's involved. At this stage you might work out whether it suits you or not. You will learn some new skills and get an evaluation of your current ability.
The 'milking the cow' steering method is still something that frustrates me today but I've chosen to adapt to it, pass my test and then find a happy medium.
Have a read of my diary (stickied and overdue an update), I'm happy to answer an questions
The 'milking the cow' steering method is still something that frustrates me today but I've chosen to adapt to it, pass my test and then find a happy medium.
Have a read of my diary (stickied and overdue an update), I'm happy to answer an questions
"Milking the cow" steering is not mandatory and the only time I would use it is where I need more than 100ish degrees of lock and my hands would otherwise cross. Rest of the time I use fixed input steering and none of my examiners have ever complained.
If that's all that's putting you off, I'd recommend you sign up because there's so much more to advanced driving than that. You never know, you might even get an open minded observer
Chris
If that's all that's putting you off, I'd recommend you sign up because there's so much more to advanced driving than that. You never know, you might even get an open minded observer
Chris
7mike said:
Rawhide66 said:
My old neihbours were both IAM, they'd reverse off the drive.....
Couldn't have been that 'advanced' then or they would reverse onto their drives.But it seems no one does this anymore do they? Its like giving way to vehicles coming up a hill, it's like it dropped out of fashion.
What I have noticed thats been 'in' the last few seasons is people overtaking parked cars so wide or taking so long to recover their position that they vitually force you off the road. Though I think this may have some correlation to the recent popularity of the 4x4.
Anyway, I digress, Thanks for your contribution.
Don said:
If you aren't going to do that than you can't pass the test and if you can't pass the test then why bother?
You can be a good driver without passing an Advanced test. Be satisfied with that.
Maybe what I would learn from the course is more important to me than being able to hold a certificate up and say look at me I got this. Thats whats wrong with GCSE's and the DSA test. People are taught how to pass them and come out with a pass and too little appreciation of the actual subject.You can be a good driver without passing an Advanced test. Be satisfied with that.
And your right, you can be a good driver without passing the test. So I won't.
But I can be a better driver if I learn from the course. So I might.
I just won't be able to offer documentary evidence that I once rubbed shoulders with the elite.
But what have I got to prove and who to?
Mag1calTrev0r said:
My advice would be to do the 'Drive Check' course from IAM, it consists of a 40min drive with an observer where you learn a bit of what's involved.
The 'milking the cow' steering method is still something that frustrates me today but I've chosen to adapt to it, pass my test and then find a happy medium.
It seems it's not just me that has an aversion to dairy farming. The 'milking the cow' steering method is still something that frustrates me today but I've chosen to adapt to it, pass my test and then find a happy medium.
Maybe I could learn to live with it.
Your suggestion seems a good idea and a good place to start. Thanks
Edited by Rawhide66 on Thursday 15th April 20:39
ScoobyChris said:
Rest of the time I use fixed input steering and none of my examiners have ever complained.
If that's all that's putting you off, I'd recommend you sign up because there's so much more to advanced driving than that. You never know, you might even get an open minded observer
Chris
'Fixed input' That was well put. I like the sound of that. ThanksIf that's all that's putting you off, I'd recommend you sign up because there's so much more to advanced driving than that. You never know, you might even get an open minded observer
Chris
I very rarely cross my hands anyway, so must be doing something similar to it already.
I am a bugger for leaving my left hand on the gear stick though.
Unless I'm waiting in traffic then I steer with my left and rest my head on my right hand and catch a few winks. !!ONLY JOKING!!
Edited by Rawhide66 on Thursday 15th April 20:37
There was an article in the Roada mag (RoSPA newsletter) written by Chris Gilbert, many of you on here will know Chris, a now retired instrutor from Hendon.
Chris has a couple of clips up on you tube - like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtQ4NN5_-Q
I can't find the article, but this seems to be more or less the same, written by Chris.
Take the <space> out from after the : had to add it else I got smilie face in the middle of the link ...
http://www.peterboroughadvancedmotorists.co.uk/ind... pull-push-steering-by-chris-gilbert&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=64
Martin
Chris has a couple of clips up on you tube - like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtQ4NN5_-Q
I can't find the article, but this seems to be more or less the same, written by Chris.
Take the <space> out from after the : had to add it else I got smilie face in the middle of the link ...
http://www.peterboroughadvancedmotorists.co.uk/ind... pull-push-steering-by-chris-gilbert&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=64
Martin
Edited by mph999 on Friday 16th April 06:02
mph999 said:
Take the <space> out from after the : had to add it else I got smilie face in the middle of the link ...
http://www.peterboroughadvancedmotorists.co.uk/ind... pull-push-steering-by-chris-gilbert&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=64
Link works "as is" for me!http://www.peterboroughadvancedmotorists.co.uk/ind... pull-push-steering-by-chris-gilbert&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=64
Nice website.
It is indeed a nice website.
To the OP. If you think of steering as something that needs to be done efficiently, there are a number of methods that can all work. Among those are pull-push, fixed grip, rotational, and a variety of one handed techniques. The first two have a big advantage over the others in that two hands are in contact with the wheel all the time. For manoeuvering safely, pull-push is hard to beat. Where people go wrong is in treating it like "milking". The steering wheel (on most cars) is a complete circle encompassing 360 degrees of arc. The "milkers" tend to use only about half of this. If you use the full circumference of the wheel, you can go from lock to lock in between 4 and 6 moves in a typical family car. The only technique that's likely to beat that is a one-handed palming one.
Anyway, if you want to pass an advanced test (and benefit from the other training you'll receive along the way) it's best to bend a little and at least use p-p for slow-speed manoeuvres. Good luck
Oh, and btw if your neighbours "sat stationary in the middle of the road milking" nowadays, they'd fail their IAM test for using "dry steering"
To the OP. If you think of steering as something that needs to be done efficiently, there are a number of methods that can all work. Among those are pull-push, fixed grip, rotational, and a variety of one handed techniques. The first two have a big advantage over the others in that two hands are in contact with the wheel all the time. For manoeuvering safely, pull-push is hard to beat. Where people go wrong is in treating it like "milking". The steering wheel (on most cars) is a complete circle encompassing 360 degrees of arc. The "milkers" tend to use only about half of this. If you use the full circumference of the wheel, you can go from lock to lock in between 4 and 6 moves in a typical family car. The only technique that's likely to beat that is a one-handed palming one.
Anyway, if you want to pass an advanced test (and benefit from the other training you'll receive along the way) it's best to bend a little and at least use p-p for slow-speed manoeuvres. Good luck
Oh, and btw if your neighbours "sat stationary in the middle of the road milking" nowadays, they'd fail their IAM test for using "dry steering"
Edited by Mr Grayson on Friday 16th April 13:21
I did the IAM advanced test. It was the best thing I have done driving wise. It has made me a much safer driver, more observent and generally smoother. I have found the skills useful on track days also. The push pull sterring method is something I still (on track days however I use it less), I find using the full circumferance of the wheel to turn gives a much smoother drive. Turning the wheel by pulling it down and letting it feed through the other hand for me stops the lurching when the wheel is pushed up to turn it. I don't why it works it just does so I use it.
However I find the conforming part difficult. The system works however so it can't be that bad.
However I find the conforming part difficult. The system works however so it can't be that bad.
In my experience...
HOW to operate the controls - 15% (at most)
Ease of mastering skills - pretty easy for average driver.
WHEN to operate the controls - 85%
Ease of mastering skills - Very hard for the average driver.
IAM is soooooo much more than going back to basics with the basic control manipulation method.
As said above, you have to go into it with a flexible attitude. If having someone tell you about feeding the wheel offends you, you are gooing to find IAM very very hard indeed. You have to be open to criticism.
Your best bet would be go for a spirited drive with an IAM person, or better still an observer. It's not for everybody because not everybody is ready willing to be criticised or have their behaviour changed.
I'm convinced some on here want to sign up to an advanced driving course, be told they are second only to Fangio and take their advanced test within a week and pass first time. it doesn't work like that unfortunately.
HOW to operate the controls - 15% (at most)
Ease of mastering skills - pretty easy for average driver.
WHEN to operate the controls - 85%
Ease of mastering skills - Very hard for the average driver.
IAM is soooooo much more than going back to basics with the basic control manipulation method.
As said above, you have to go into it with a flexible attitude. If having someone tell you about feeding the wheel offends you, you are gooing to find IAM very very hard indeed. You have to be open to criticism.
Your best bet would be go for a spirited drive with an IAM person, or better still an observer. It's not for everybody because not everybody is ready willing to be criticised or have their behaviour changed.
I'm convinced some on here want to sign up to an advanced driving course, be told they are second only to Fangio and take their advanced test within a week and pass first time. it doesn't work like that unfortunately.
My reply to many:
At the time of making my original post I was motivated by 2 things;
Firstly, I had to challenge somthing in order to evaluate it. I suppose if I choose to do something, then I actually want to do it from the heart and not out of a sense of compliance, reticance or pragmatism.
Secondly, The text was a deliberately a little challenging in places and I was expecting to be putting the cat among the pigeons with some of the things I wrote. To be honest, I had expected howls of derrision and would inwardly cringe when I noticed a post notification in my inbox. (like those spats you read in the youtube comments) This was to test the 'uptightness' of the AD community. As the only 3 IAM's that I have known were pretty tightly wrapped as people. I think I was a little prejudiced after I had inadvertantly made negative associations.
I have been phasing in push-pull over the last couple of days and I think I can make it work for me. Then, mph999 very kindly posted a link to a Chris Gilbert article on steering. Now I've read that, it's a no brainer. Push-pull from now on.
I thought I had always read the road reasonably well. A spell in trucks taught me not to 'drive on the brakes'. And that preserving the vehicle's momentum was more important than gunning to progress. 'Judge your stops son.' the late Jo Jameson had said when he coached me. (see OP) Only I drove Jo. The other staff were too proud to take his direction.
I've been out tonight. I have tried to implement a few things that I have already learn't, also trying to selfasses as I did so. I have no sense of timing or rhythum. Nearly everything is off. And what's right one time, is wrong the next. So even if I make a semblance of I drive plan, I have no system. My eyes keep drifting from full beam to dipped, with the result that my plan isn't getting refreshed or revised often enough. There's no flow. In summary, I'm crap!
I've just got back in and read the post of jains15. It says, 85% is knowing what and when.
I fully understood just what they meant. I've got such alot of hard work to do if I'm going to improve.
I owe you all so much in terms of gratitude for your kind and constructive replies. They have bought me from a position of curious but skeptical to one of feeling compeled to go the AD route. I only wish I had done it 20+ years ago.
Thank you.
At the time of making my original post I was motivated by 2 things;
Firstly, I had to challenge somthing in order to evaluate it. I suppose if I choose to do something, then I actually want to do it from the heart and not out of a sense of compliance, reticance or pragmatism.
Secondly, The text was a deliberately a little challenging in places and I was expecting to be putting the cat among the pigeons with some of the things I wrote. To be honest, I had expected howls of derrision and would inwardly cringe when I noticed a post notification in my inbox. (like those spats you read in the youtube comments) This was to test the 'uptightness' of the AD community. As the only 3 IAM's that I have known were pretty tightly wrapped as people. I think I was a little prejudiced after I had inadvertantly made negative associations.
I have been phasing in push-pull over the last couple of days and I think I can make it work for me. Then, mph999 very kindly posted a link to a Chris Gilbert article on steering. Now I've read that, it's a no brainer. Push-pull from now on.
I thought I had always read the road reasonably well. A spell in trucks taught me not to 'drive on the brakes'. And that preserving the vehicle's momentum was more important than gunning to progress. 'Judge your stops son.' the late Jo Jameson had said when he coached me. (see OP) Only I drove Jo. The other staff were too proud to take his direction.
I've been out tonight. I have tried to implement a few things that I have already learn't, also trying to selfasses as I did so. I have no sense of timing or rhythum. Nearly everything is off. And what's right one time, is wrong the next. So even if I make a semblance of I drive plan, I have no system. My eyes keep drifting from full beam to dipped, with the result that my plan isn't getting refreshed or revised often enough. There's no flow. In summary, I'm crap!
I've just got back in and read the post of jains15. It says, 85% is knowing what and when.
I fully understood just what they meant. I've got such alot of hard work to do if I'm going to improve.
I owe you all so much in terms of gratitude for your kind and constructive replies. They have bought me from a position of curious but skeptical to one of feeling compeled to go the AD route. I only wish I had done it 20+ years ago.
Thank you.
Edited by Rawhide66 on Saturday 17th April 02:55
Edited by Rawhide66 on Saturday 17th April 02:57
Edited by Rawhide66 on Saturday 17th April 03:04
Edited by Rawhide66 on Saturday 17th April 14:16
Rawhide66 said:
I've been out tonight. I have tried to implement a few things that I have already learn't, also trying to selfasses as I did so. I have no sense of timing or rhythum. Nearly everything is off. And what's right one time, is wrong the next. My eyes keep drifting from full beam to dipped. In summary, I'm crap!
That's simply because you are trying to implement that is new to you, so a lot of your concentration is taken up with remembering not to do what you normally do. When I went for IAM I felt at first that I was learning to drive all over again, but it soon clicked.jains15 said:
As said above, you have to go into it with a flexible attitude. If having someone tell you about feeding the wheel offends you, you are gooing to find IAM very very hard indeed. You have to be open to criticism.
You have just reminded me of the opening gambit of one of the books I read on advanced driving nearly 30 years ago. It went something like this;Ruin a mans business, burn down his house and take his wife and children and he'll eventually forgive you. But if you call him a bad driver, then that forgiveness may take a little longer...
jains15 said:
I'm convinced some on here want to sign up to an advanced driving course, be told they are second only to Fangio and take their advanced test within a week and pass first time. it doesn't work like that unfortunately.
I'd settle for being second best to Alain Prost. He was sooo smooth. LOLEdited by Rawhide66 on Saturday 17th April 14:38
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff