Preferred Cornering Lines?
Discussion
In day-to-day driving do you put much emphasis on your cornering lines?
I'm not talking about racing or even "fast road", but do you always aim for a good line or just trundle around bends when not pressing on?
I usually aim for a good view around a bend, a smooth, fairly late turn-in/late apex and a good look for the exit as that is best on the bike.
Do people prefer an earlier or later apex? Does it depend on the car?
These days I generally drive a nose-heavy FWD diesel estate (get in a straight line before unleashing the, erm, torque...)
or a low-powered hatch (not much go anyway).
Is touching/crossing the centre-line acceptable when there is very good visibility?
As an example of line choice making a difference (at the risk of appearing to be willy waving):
I had a Golf GTI up my chuff (whilst driving the family in the diesel estate) on a good, twisty road yesterday. I was driving at a reasonable, legal pace, but the GTI dropped well back at a(n admittedly deceptively-tightening) bend. The same thing happened at the next bend/corner. On the following straight the GTI came barrelling past whilst I just drove normally and it then slammed on the anchors for the next corner, where I caught it up, braking and shifting with a bit of Hn'T of course
).
My 'passenger-seat speed/rpm/g limiter' prevented any exuberance. Next straight they booted it again, cleared off and I caught them up through the next very tight (~100deg, but good visibility) corner by using the road.
The GTI then tail-gated a car in front for a couple of miles whilst I hung back....
On paper the Golf GTi had much more power, less weight(?) better brakes and presumably better handling, but booting it, slamming on the brakes, turning in early and taking a poor line didn't take any advantage of it.
NB. I was driving normally. I certainly wasn't using much welly, wasn't heaving on the anchors, was taking what I thought to be a reasonable line and wasn't taking any risks.
I'm not talking about racing or even "fast road", but do you always aim for a good line or just trundle around bends when not pressing on?
I usually aim for a good view around a bend, a smooth, fairly late turn-in/late apex and a good look for the exit as that is best on the bike.
Do people prefer an earlier or later apex? Does it depend on the car?
These days I generally drive a nose-heavy FWD diesel estate (get in a straight line before unleashing the, erm, torque...)
or a low-powered hatch (not much go anyway).
Is touching/crossing the centre-line acceptable when there is very good visibility?
As an example of line choice making a difference (at the risk of appearing to be willy waving):
I had a Golf GTI up my chuff (whilst driving the family in the diesel estate) on a good, twisty road yesterday. I was driving at a reasonable, legal pace, but the GTI dropped well back at a(n admittedly deceptively-tightening) bend. The same thing happened at the next bend/corner. On the following straight the GTI came barrelling past whilst I just drove normally and it then slammed on the anchors for the next corner, where I caught it up, braking and shifting with a bit of Hn'T of course
). My 'passenger-seat speed/rpm/g limiter' prevented any exuberance. Next straight they booted it again, cleared off and I caught them up through the next very tight (~100deg, but good visibility) corner by using the road.
The GTI then tail-gated a car in front for a couple of miles whilst I hung back....
On paper the Golf GTi had much more power, less weight(?) better brakes and presumably better handling, but booting it, slamming on the brakes, turning in early and taking a poor line didn't take any advantage of it.
NB. I was driving normally. I certainly wasn't using much welly, wasn't heaving on the anchors, was taking what I thought to be a reasonable line and wasn't taking any risks.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 24th March 16:29
Q: In day-to-day driving do you put much emphasis on your cornering lines?
A: Yes
Q: I usually aim for a good view around a bend, a smooth, fairly late turn-in/late apex and a good look for the exit as that is best on the bike. Do people prefer an earlier or later apex? Does it depend on the car?
A: It depends mostly on the bend; the order of priority is safety, vision, stability. The technique you describe sounds good for an unsighted bend, with a road wide enough to position for vision.
Q: Is touching/crossing the centre-line acceptable when there is very good visibility?
A: Speaking for myself, yes: it is acceptable to use the other side of the road so long as it is done for worthwhile advantage and in a way which cannot cause concern or confusion to other road users. The position of both IAM and Rospa is that they will accept it subject to these provisos, but will not positively encourage it.
A: Yes
Q: I usually aim for a good view around a bend, a smooth, fairly late turn-in/late apex and a good look for the exit as that is best on the bike. Do people prefer an earlier or later apex? Does it depend on the car?
A: It depends mostly on the bend; the order of priority is safety, vision, stability. The technique you describe sounds good for an unsighted bend, with a road wide enough to position for vision.
Q: Is touching/crossing the centre-line acceptable when there is very good visibility?
A: Speaking for myself, yes: it is acceptable to use the other side of the road so long as it is done for worthwhile advantage and in a way which cannot cause concern or confusion to other road users. The position of both IAM and Rospa is that they will accept it subject to these provisos, but will not positively encourage it.
I try and maximise my visibility out of the car and also people's visibility of me, be sympathetic to other road users and also to improve my safety by giving myself more capacity to brake and accelerate when I need it, rather than when I don't.MC Bodge said:
So I'm not the only one then. I don't habitually drive on the wrong side of the road, but on the small radius 100 degree bend mentioned above, the smoothest way to take it -if possible- is to straighten it out a little.
It's not only to straighten it out a little for the sake of stability and efficiency. You want to maximise your vision. As soon as the road ahead begins to bend, your vision is compromised. By staying or going "out", you can see farther ahead. The same applies on a RH bend - you want to keep the car as far to the left as you can for as long as you can (other things being equal).Only take my ideal line if I am 110% sure that there is nothing oncoming ect... there are a few roads with very good visibility and is quite easy to anticipate any oncoming vehicles... I dont think i do it out of arrogance or for a thrill or love of speed. it is generally done to avoid heavy breaking and heavy acceleration, allows smooth driving while maintaining speed and the end result is less fuel used! my cars probably not the quickest for picking up speed so when available i just dont drop the speed too much.
Jayho said:
Only take my ideal line if I am 110% sure that there is nothing oncoming ect... there are a few roads with very good visibility and is quite easy to anticipate any oncoming vehicles... I dont think i do it out of arrogance or for a thrill or love of speed. it is generally done to avoid heavy breaking and heavy acceleration, allows smooth driving while maintaining speed and the end result is less fuel used! my cars probably not the quickest for picking up speed so when available i just dont drop the speed too much.
At the risk of stating the obvious: the ideal line on a public road is usually not the ideal line if that same piece of asphalt were a race track. For the lines to be the same, you need total visibility for a good distance, and this is rare in Britain owing largely to the system of hedging, trees and stone walls in rural areas.flemke said:
Jayho said:
Only take my ideal line if I am 110% sure that there is nothing oncoming ect... there are a few roads with very good visibility and is quite easy to anticipate any oncoming vehicles... I dont think i do it out of arrogance or for a thrill or love of speed. it is generally done to avoid heavy breaking and heavy acceleration, allows smooth driving while maintaining speed and the end result is less fuel used! my cars probably not the quickest for picking up speed so when available i just dont drop the speed too much.
At the risk of stating the obvious: the ideal line on a public road is usually not the ideal line if that same piece of asphalt were a race track. For the lines to be the same, you need total visibility for a good distance, and this is rare in Britain owing largely to the system of hedging, trees and stone walls in rural areas.
Best wishes all,
Titus.
flemke said:
Jayho said:
Only take my ideal line if I am 110% sure that there is nothing oncoming ect... there are a few roads with very good visibility and is quite easy to anticipate any oncoming vehicles... I dont think i do it out of arrogance or for a thrill or love of speed. it is generally done to avoid heavy breaking and heavy acceleration, allows smooth driving while maintaining speed and the end result is less fuel used! my cars probably not the quickest for picking up speed so when available i just dont drop the speed too much.
At the risk of stating the obvious: the ideal line on a public road is usually not the ideal line if that same piece of asphalt were a race track. For the lines to be the same, you need total visibility for a good distance, and this is rare in Britain owing largely to the system of hedging, trees and stone walls in rural areas.Jayho said:
... this does not mean cutting and having the whole car in the other side of the road while going round a blind corner or cutting any apex. it purely means driving the line i feel comfortable with and i am happy with while at the same time preserving my fuel and tyres.
I don't know what line you feel comfortable with. However, the safe road driving line, chosen for vision and for seperation from unseen oncoming traffic, is not the line which minimises the radius of the bend; it is therefore not consistent with minimum tyre wear.MC Bodge said:
Do people prefer an earlier or later apex? Does it depend on the car?
It depends on the corner and the car!I drive a TVR Chimaera during the week, a Peugeot 406 V6 estate at the weekends and last week did 250 miles in a 1.2 Astra from Inverness to Portree and back across roads I know quite well.
The TVR and Peugeot have lots of power while the Astra had virtually none.
The TVRs handling is pretty neutral until you use the throttle. In the dry this is easy to handle but needs care in the wet. The Peugeot gently under steers but can be pulled in a bit on the throttle. The Astra under steers and I'm told it has an engine!
I prefer to apex early and a little slow and then power out of the corner. Knowing the road makes a huge difference as I know what sort of speed it is safe to enter the corner at. Good visibility helps for the same reason on all roads. There are some lovely stretches of road in the highlands where you can see the road for a long way a head.
MC Bodge said:
Is touching/crossing the centre-line acceptable when there is very good visibility?
Yes and I do it a lot in the highlands!
I like to apex late for all of the above reasons and it also allows me to carry a little more speed through the bend for less lateral loading. It also allows me a little bit of room for error if I overcook it a little on the way in or find the bend tighening, which would make it a late apex bend anyway.
However, this is something of a moot point when the GTI in front can't drive a bend or 'drives on the brakes' as it seems most of the motoring population do. In that sense sooner or later their 'ryhthum' will dictate mine and make for a miserable drive.
Before now I've bowled along quite happily behind someone who was racing and pushing their car close to the limits a result of poor positioning, ridiculus lines and over exagerated manoevers.
However, this is something of a moot point when the GTI in front can't drive a bend or 'drives on the brakes' as it seems most of the motoring population do. In that sense sooner or later their 'ryhthum' will dictate mine and make for a miserable drive.
Before now I've bowled along quite happily behind someone who was racing and pushing their car close to the limits a result of poor positioning, ridiculus lines and over exagerated manoevers.
Straigtling a corner for me is a no no. On the track I will take the ideal line. On the road I will normally take the line of maximium visibility, which ask for a speed comrimise, which is O.K as I am not on the track. The only time I will sacfrise visibility is on narrow roads where moving out to the centre line on a blind LH bend will mean I will have no/little warning of cars who are cutting the corner coming the other way.
MC Bodge said:
In day-to-day driving do you put much emphasis on your cornering lines?
I'm not talking about racing or even "fast road", but do you always aim for a good line or just trundle around bends when not pressing on?
I always aim for a good line. There is always an 'ideal line' in my mind. But where that is does depend, among other things, on the speeds involved. I'm not talking about racing or even "fast road", but do you always aim for a good line or just trundle around bends when not pressing on?
The more progress I am making the more emphasis I put on maintaining a view and stability, and the more road width I'm likely to use. Whereas at lower speeds the advantage in that kind of positioning may be less, and it may be better to conform to expectations by using less overt positioning.
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