Genuine Question: Brake-Gear Separation benefits?
Discussion
I've noticed that previous topics on this descended into insults, but with little info. Please avoid this!
Could somebody explain the rationale behind the general separation of braking and gear-shifting?
Personally, when trying it, it seems like a retrograde step. Having spent years trying to do smooth down-shifts (changing at the 'correct' rpm or heel/toe) under braking, it suddenly seemed 'clunky' to do 2 separate actions, although it would doubtlessly improve with practice.
Could somebody explain the rationale behind the general separation of braking and gear-shifting?
Personally, when trying it, it seems like a retrograde step. Having spent years trying to do smooth down-shifts (changing at the 'correct' rpm or heel/toe) under braking, it suddenly seemed 'clunky' to do 2 separate actions, although it would doubtlessly improve with practice.
Roadcraft has this to say:
It means that both hands remain on the wheel allowing maximum control of the vehicle through the braking phase.
It prevents you doing two things at once, and doing both poorly as a result.
The whole system of car control is based on separating the phases of the system and dealing with each sequentially- with the information phase being overarching and constantly updating of course. The basic principle is if you do one thing only, you'll do it well.
Additionally I'd say this:
It encourages you to plan your deceleration and the subsequent manouver : assess the hazard, brake to the correct speed, then select the appropriate gear for that speed. Additionally, if the situation changes before you have completed your deceleration phase, but you've already selected a gear, then you're forced to make an additional and unnecessary gear change.
Much of roadcraft doesn't make much sense at normal road speeds, IMO. It's as the speed and stress levels rise that your realise that the training gels into a methodical system for safely negoiating hazards.
Equally, much of it makes more sense if you imagine that you're driving a 3.5 litre Jag - everything has to be planned, measured and precisely executed to propel your machine along.
If you do have a copy of roadcraft, pick one up. It answers many of these questions and more.
It means that both hands remain on the wheel allowing maximum control of the vehicle through the braking phase.
It prevents you doing two things at once, and doing both poorly as a result.
The whole system of car control is based on separating the phases of the system and dealing with each sequentially- with the information phase being overarching and constantly updating of course. The basic principle is if you do one thing only, you'll do it well.
Additionally I'd say this:
It encourages you to plan your deceleration and the subsequent manouver : assess the hazard, brake to the correct speed, then select the appropriate gear for that speed. Additionally, if the situation changes before you have completed your deceleration phase, but you've already selected a gear, then you're forced to make an additional and unnecessary gear change.
Much of roadcraft doesn't make much sense at normal road speeds, IMO. It's as the speed and stress levels rise that your realise that the training gels into a methodical system for safely negoiating hazards.
Equally, much of it makes more sense if you imagine that you're driving a 3.5 litre Jag - everything has to be planned, measured and precisely executed to propel your machine along.
If you do have a copy of roadcraft, pick one up. It answers many of these questions and more.
As above, it's more about planning than necessarily being a direct benefit - however, I discovered in one situation when I found it was genuinely beneficial - I was approaching a junction with a very poor, broken road surface (which was largely unsighted due to the bend before said junction), braking whilst having both hands on the wheel made it much easier to keep the car pointing in the intended direction as the surface forced the steering all over the place, requiring a firm grip; had I been trying to change gear I doubt I would have maintained a straight line.
WeirdNeville said:
Roadcraft has this to say:
It means that both hands remain on the wheel allowing maximum control of the vehicle through the braking phase.
It prevents you doing two things at once, and doing both poorly as a result.
The whole system of car control is based on separating the phases of the system and dealing with each sequentially- with the information phase being overarching and constantly updating of course. The basic principle is if you do one thing only, you'll do it well.
Additionally I'd say this:
It encourages you to plan your deceleration and the subsequent manouver : assess the hazard, brake to the correct speed, then select the appropriate gear for that speed. Additionally, if the situation changes before you have completed your deceleration phase, but you've already selected a gear, then you're forced to make an additional and unnecessary gear change.
This makes a lot of sense with regular manual transmission cars with a floor-mounted gear lever, but it's definitely debatable if you have a flappy-paddle gearbox that does automatic rev-matching. Going sequentially down through the gears as you brake doesn't require hands to be moved from the wheel, ensures you're in the right gear even if you have to abort the braking and the rev-matching should avoid upsetting the balance of the car.It means that both hands remain on the wheel allowing maximum control of the vehicle through the braking phase.
It prevents you doing two things at once, and doing both poorly as a result.
The whole system of car control is based on separating the phases of the system and dealing with each sequentially- with the information phase being overarching and constantly updating of course. The basic principle is if you do one thing only, you'll do it well.
Additionally I'd say this:
It encourages you to plan your deceleration and the subsequent manouver : assess the hazard, brake to the correct speed, then select the appropriate gear for that speed. Additionally, if the situation changes before you have completed your deceleration phase, but you've already selected a gear, then you're forced to make an additional and unnecessary gear change.
Absolutely - one of the advantages of modern tech on cars. It can help us maintain full control whilst doing more.
As I said, much of roadcraft dates from 50 years ago - that's not to say it's wrong or even out of date, it's a fine starting point, but bits of it don't really make sense until you put it to use in a manual car at speed, IMO.
One of the reasons I like my Mk1 MR2 is it teaches you the benefits of a systematic approach. You don't get 'push pull' steering until you have to manouver a car with unassisted steering at low speed. Likewise, a lack of ABS teaches brake modulation in a way a huge tyres ABS'd EBD'd car never can, IMO.
As I said, much of roadcraft dates from 50 years ago - that's not to say it's wrong or even out of date, it's a fine starting point, but bits of it don't really make sense until you put it to use in a manual car at speed, IMO.
One of the reasons I like my Mk1 MR2 is it teaches you the benefits of a systematic approach. You don't get 'push pull' steering until you have to manouver a car with unassisted steering at low speed. Likewise, a lack of ABS teaches brake modulation in a way a huge tyres ABS'd EBD'd car never can, IMO.
GW65 said:
This makes a lot of sense with regular manual transmission cars with a floor-mounted gear lever, but it's definitely debatable if you have a flappy-paddle gearbox that does automatic rev-matching. Going sequentially down through the gears as you brake doesn't require hands to be moved from the wheel, ensures you're in the right gear even if you have to abort the braking and the rev-matching should avoid upsetting the balance of the car.
With a sequential paddle shift you may not be able to make block changes, in which case it is best to overlap. Leaving the car in a higher gear until you have finished braking is not a sensible strategy, if you then need to go through several gears before you accelerate. As it happens, with my DCT I tend to make the last downchange after finishing braking and as I go back on the gas, pretty much when I do with a manual transmission.Sensible benefits of separation have been mentioned. Can I add that earlier braking creates a greater reserve of safety, and that separation makes it possible to rev match for smoothness, safety and mechanical sympathy without the need for heel & toe?
Thanks for responses.
I've ordered a copy of Roadcraft( I have the bike one already)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as if the actual safety benefit is to promote early braking, by forcing you to complete braking and only then change gear -Increasing the length of time between beginning braking and having the correct road speed and engine speed, thus increasing the distance required prior to a hazard.
Assuming that a driver is able to brake and shift smoothly, are there any situations in which shifting and braking in one smooth action, whilst maintaining vehicle balance, isn't actually a good thing? On a motorbike it is virtually essential.
I tend to use a combination of 'pull' -both hands sliding to the required position (& reaching beyond 12 O'clock if required)- and fixed-input(?) steering.
I've ordered a copy of Roadcraft( I have the bike one already)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as if the actual safety benefit is to promote early braking, by forcing you to complete braking and only then change gear -Increasing the length of time between beginning braking and having the correct road speed and engine speed, thus increasing the distance required prior to a hazard.
Assuming that a driver is able to brake and shift smoothly, are there any situations in which shifting and braking in one smooth action, whilst maintaining vehicle balance, isn't actually a good thing? On a motorbike it is virtually essential.
WeirdNeville said:
You don't get 'push pull' steering until you have to manouver a car with unassisted steering at low speed.
I can appreciate that and do use that for some manoeuvres myself(often as a conscious thing because maybe I should...), but in a car with high-geared power-assisted steering I almost never use it as taught for my driving test whilst 'on the move'. A series of tight turns at speed would be extremely slow with push-pull.I tend to use a combination of 'pull' -both hands sliding to the required position (& reaching beyond 12 O'clock if required)- and fixed-input(?) steering.
WeirdNeville said:
Likewise, a lack of ABS teaches brake modulation in a way a huge tyres ABS'd EBD'd car never can, IMO.
A non-ABS motorbike is arguably even better.Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 16th March 19:17
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 18th March 18:31
Hi All
I've always understood that Roadcraft was a supplementary driving manual for police drivers on patrol and maybe emergencies rather than those engaged in pursuit. As has been posted in another thread, BGOL or a separated technique make negligible difference in speed when driving on a public road.
As this is the case it is much easier (and cheaper) to teach separation, as it does not require such finesse and is easier to describe in text form. A bit like the difference between vocabulary used in The Sun and The Telegraph, both can convey the same meaning but in simple and complex styles.
As a hand needs to be taken off of the steering to change gear whenever it is done , to me it seems that the argument that it be done at the end is without merit in practical terms for a single gear change when extolling the virtues of BGOL and to all intents and purposes for multiple gear changes too.
If one wishes to pass a test then give the examiner what they want to see, but the real test of ability is in everyday driving. It appears that learning BGOL is now detrimental to the original poster's driving which previously had finesse that many do not have.
What is important, as Renesis Evo testifies is that it is important to have two hands available to change steering angle when necessary but this is a requirement for the driving test anyway.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
I've always understood that Roadcraft was a supplementary driving manual for police drivers on patrol and maybe emergencies rather than those engaged in pursuit. As has been posted in another thread, BGOL or a separated technique make negligible difference in speed when driving on a public road.
As this is the case it is much easier (and cheaper) to teach separation, as it does not require such finesse and is easier to describe in text form. A bit like the difference between vocabulary used in The Sun and The Telegraph, both can convey the same meaning but in simple and complex styles.
As a hand needs to be taken off of the steering to change gear whenever it is done , to me it seems that the argument that it be done at the end is without merit in practical terms for a single gear change when extolling the virtues of BGOL and to all intents and purposes for multiple gear changes too.
If one wishes to pass a test then give the examiner what they want to see, but the real test of ability is in everyday driving. It appears that learning BGOL is now detrimental to the original poster's driving which previously had finesse that many do not have.
What is important, as Renesis Evo testifies is that it is important to have two hands available to change steering angle when necessary but this is a requirement for the driving test anyway.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
I had a look for examples of Police drivers doing separation etc. and found this from Fifth Gear.
Interesting.
The Policeman is obviously very good at observation and giving a commentary, although the push-pull and separation still seem awkward.
I wonder if he stuck to it all when the stop-watch was running? The track lap time compared with VBH is fairly irrelevant though.
Interesting.
The Policeman is obviously very good at observation and giving a commentary, although the push-pull and separation still seem awkward.
I wonder if he stuck to it all when the stop-watch was running? The track lap time compared with VBH is fairly irrelevant though.
Martin A said:
Hi All
As a hand needs to be taken off of the steering to change gear whenever it is done , to me it seems that the argument that it be done at the end is without merit in practical terms for a single gear change when extolling the virtues of BGOL and to all intents and purposes for multiple gear changes too.
That was my view. Although there may be an argument for not braking and shifting together to enable both to be done well, I've never felt it to be a problem, even when pressing on a bit.As a hand needs to be taken off of the steering to change gear whenever it is done , to me it seems that the argument that it be done at the end is without merit in practical terms for a single gear change when extolling the virtues of BGOL and to all intents and purposes for multiple gear changes too.
I first noticed the short-comings of not over-lapping/rev-matching/heel-toe when driving through Cheddar Gorge a fair few year back.
Martin A said:
If one wishes to pass a test then give the examiner what they want to see
Exactly. I'd like further driver training to improve for my own satisfaction, but I'm not bothered about getting a certificate.Martin A said:
I've always understood that Roadcraft was a supplementary driving manual for police drivers on patrol and maybe emergencies rather than those engaged in pursuit. As has been posted in another thread, BGOL or a separated technique make negligible difference in speed
Theres a fundamental flaw in your thinking: The system of car control, as taught by roadcraft, has NOTHING to do with speeding up your driving. Indeed, it may well slow it down. Speed is the last and least important of the four 'esses'. Safety, Safety, Safety is the overarching mantra, and that is what the system focuses on every time.Brake gear separation obviusly isn't the fastest way to get a ca. Through a hazard, that's why you don't see it on track, but it does prevent you from making fundamental and avoidable errors out on the road.
Once well taught and practiced, it can be incorporated into a fast, smooth drive without any clunkyness.
It's worth noting that Roadcraft actually 'broke' my driving until I was taught it practically. It's a skill that really doesn't translate from paper to practice without tuition IMO.
WeirdNeville said:
Safety, Safety, Safety
I agree with that.In my un-trained view, though, the following are important to safety in roughly descending order:
Attitude
Awareness
Alertness
Observation
Maintaining space around the vehicle
Smooth/competent Vehicle control
Due to my lack of training perhaps(?), somewhere very far down the list would appear push-pull steering and even further down the list would appear separation of gears and braking.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 17th March 11:53
WeirdNeville said:
...it's the application that may open your eyes a bit.
I'd agree - once you've seen it all put into practice by someone who knows what they're doing, it makes a lot of sense.Despite what many people say, I don't believe you can teach yourself Advanced Driving from a book.
Hi All
Brake gear separation obviusly isn't the fastest way to get a ca. Through a hazard, that's why you don't see it on track, but it does prevent you from making fundamental and avoidable errors out on the road.
Once well taught and practiced, it can be incorporated into a fast, smooth drive without any clunkyness.
It's worth noting that Roadcraft actually 'broke' my driving until I was taught it practically. It's a skill that really doesn't translate from paper to practice without tuition IMO.I'm in total agreement that it's not about speed but a repeatable safe procedure originally designed to prevent fundamental errors in those that may neither have had any formal nor quality driver training. Apologies if my post wasn't clear.
That doesn't mean however that it is the only method of car control that allows one to stay safe, just like reading a book is not the only way to learn and, as you rightly point out from your own learning experience, what suits many may not suit a particular individual.
In fact I use an improved version of it as the basis for teaching Learners but if someone comes to me for post test 'advanced' training and can control the car using BGOL or if is possible to enhance that rather than 'breaking' them first then I am likely to explain this and allow them to make an informed choice.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
WeirdNeville said:
Martin A said:
I've always understood that Roadcraft was a supplementary driving manual for police drivers on patrol and maybe emergencies rather than those engaged in pursuit. As has been posted in another thread, BGOL or a separated technique make negligible difference in speed
Theres a fundamental flaw in your thinking: The system of car control, as taught by roadcraft, has NOTHING to do with speeding up your driving. Indeed, it may well slow it down. Speed is the last and least important of the four 'esses'. Safety, Safety, Safety is the overarching mantra, and that is what the system focuses on every time.Brake gear separation obviusly isn't the fastest way to get a ca. Through a hazard, that's why you don't see it on track, but it does prevent you from making fundamental and avoidable errors out on the road.
Once well taught and practiced, it can be incorporated into a fast, smooth drive without any clunkyness.
It's worth noting that Roadcraft actually 'broke' my driving until I was taught it practically. It's a skill that really doesn't translate from paper to practice without tuition IMO.
That doesn't mean however that it is the only method of car control that allows one to stay safe, just like reading a book is not the only way to learn and, as you rightly point out from your own learning experience, what suits many may not suit a particular individual.
In fact I use an improved version of it as the basis for teaching Learners but if someone comes to me for post test 'advanced' training and can control the car using BGOL or if is possible to enhance that rather than 'breaking' them first then I am likely to explain this and allow them to make an informed choice.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
Edited by Martin A on Wednesday 17th March 17:43
MC Bodge said:
I've noticed that previous topics on this descended into insults, but with little info. Please avoid this!
Could somebody explain the rationale behind the general separation of braking and gear-shifting?
Personally, when trying it, it seems like a retrograde step. Having spent years trying to do smooth down-shifts (changing at the 'correct' rpm or heel/toe) under braking, it suddenly seemed 'clunky' to do 2 separate actions, although it would doubtlessly improve with practice.
If you have spent time getting good at using H/T etc, you probably won't get much out of suddenly trying to seperate everything, although it might be useful in certain situations (unfamiliar vehicle, demo runs etc)Could somebody explain the rationale behind the general separation of braking and gear-shifting?
Personally, when trying it, it seems like a retrograde step. Having spent years trying to do smooth down-shifts (changing at the 'correct' rpm or heel/toe) under braking, it suddenly seemed 'clunky' to do 2 separate actions, although it would doubtlessly improve with practice.
The system isn't designed for people in your situation though. Most people starting on IPSGA don't have the facility to heel and toe, so to improve their road driving it's better to go from unmatched overlap to matched seperation rather than get tangled up with fancy footwork. That comes later on the 'classic' AD route.
If you've bypassed this stage and get good results which you are happy with, stick with what you're good at. But as I've said, most people come to seperation from a very different point.
Right, here's a simplified (albeit real) scenario:
1 I'm travelling at 70mph in 6th along a dual carriageway
2 I approach a roundabout which is small, but offset to the left and to be taken at 20mph.
3 I brake smoothly and progressively from 70 to 20mph in 6th.
4 either:
a)I begin coming off the brakes - just as the engine stalls .
or
b) I downshift(heel/toe or not) under braking into the correct gear as the engine speed falls, maintaining the engine running and a smooth transition.
What is the Advanced way?
1 I'm travelling at 70mph in 6th along a dual carriageway
2 I approach a roundabout which is small, but offset to the left and to be taken at 20mph.
3 I brake smoothly and progressively from 70 to 20mph in 6th.
4 either:
a)I begin coming off the brakes - just as the engine stalls .
or
b) I downshift(heel/toe or not) under braking into the correct gear as the engine speed falls, maintaining the engine running and a smooth transition.
What is the Advanced way?
The 'correct' way with brake gear separation would be to brake to 20mph whilst remaining in 6th (most cars are happy down to 20mph in top gear so long as you're not asking for any acceleration) and with enough time to complete your gear change.
Then complete your 6th-2nd block change with a nice throttle blip to match engine speed and road speed (note that with your right foot not braking it's freed up for nice accurate throttle application with no fancy footwork)
This complete, you're now in the correct position, at the correct speed and in the correct gear for the hazard, with both hands on the wheel.
You negotiate the hazard - the roandabout - and are now in the correct gear to accelerate away. Be sure to hold 2nd for as long as possible, particularly if in a police car. :wink:
Then complete your 6th-2nd block change with a nice throttle blip to match engine speed and road speed (note that with your right foot not braking it's freed up for nice accurate throttle application with no fancy footwork)
This complete, you're now in the correct position, at the correct speed and in the correct gear for the hazard, with both hands on the wheel.
You negotiate the hazard - the roandabout - and are now in the correct gear to accelerate away. Be sure to hold 2nd for as long as possible, particularly if in a police car. :wink:
WeirdNeville said:
The 'correct' way with brake gear separation would be to brake to 20mph whilst remaining in 6th
As I thought. WeirdNeville said:
most cars are happy down to 20mph in top gear so long as you're not asking for any acceleration
My TDCI Mondeo isn't, as I discovered when I bought it and slowed on en entry to a motorway services. 6th gear is fairly high (realistically, 60mph+ only) on a low rpm engine.I didn't stall it tonight because I know how it responds and down-shifted smoothly into 2nd without heel-toe. Had I not done so, it would have required the clutch pedal depressing to prevent stalling.
FWIW, I drove with separation today and found that I was required to brake earlier than I normally would. After the first few attempts it felt less strange, but I'm sorry to say that I remain unconvinced that it is safer or superior to over-lapping.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 17th March 23:11
WeirdNeville said:
This complete, you're now in the correct position, at the correct speed and in the correct gear for the hazard, with both hands on the wheel.
What happens when a vehicle that you could not see as you changed gear requires you to give way?You have to brake again, which means moving your foot back to the brake pedal. I prefer to keep the brake covered until I know I am clear to proceed/accelerate. I would probably make the gear change at a similar distance and blend off the brake as I lift the clutch so that I maintain a smooth change in the rate of deceleration.
ETA-
I guess I prefer to overlap as I always assume I will have to stop until it becomes clear I can proceed. As soon as you move your foot to the accelerator you are assuming you will be clear to proceed even if you may have to stop.
Edited by Toltec on Wednesday 17th March 23:15
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff