Overtaking when it doesn't get you to the front of a queue

[Mag1calTrev0r]

Sorry long winded title but please advise me on the following.

I'm traveling along a NSL single carriageway road, the car in front is doing 45mph. Nothing is coming towards me and I have plenty of time to safely overtake the other car.
There is another car ahead which, at the speed I'm traveling, I will catch up and may or may not be able to overtake further down the road.


I make the decision to overtake and complete the maneuver continue on my way and end up behind the other car. Unfortunately it wasn't then safe to overtake the second car so I stayed behind them.


The problem is, my passenger then accused me of 'being a cock' because 'the overtake didn't get me anywhere'.

Was I wrong to overtake? The 45mpher was holding me up on a long, clear and straight NSL road. Should we, as 'advanced drivers', take most opportunities to make progress if safe and legal to do so?

I am, of course, happy to learn from the experience if I'm proven to be wrong.

[jains15]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

The problem is, my passenger then accused me of 'being a cock' because 'the overtake didn't get me anywhere'.

Yes but assuming you did nothing illegal, I would say "well that's what you think but I did nothing illegal!"

If you caused the car you overtook (and subsequently slotted in in front of) to brake or take avoiding action, then you may be on dodgey ground. However, if you are say 4th car behind the slow vehicle and the three cars in front are reluctant to overtake I can't see the problem in doing 4 sensible legal overtakes. There's a lot to consider though I don't think it's as black and white as you say. It will take you time to do 4 safe overtakes and in that time you may come across some DC so it would have been easier to sit behind then overtake all on the DC.

I asked the question (to my IAM observer) after I came up behind a slow car with 2 trailing cars doing 35mph in an NSL. I asked whether it was OK to overtake all 3 in one go, (I was doing 60mph - and would have been safe, no oncoming cars) and was told no.

You have to think of perception too bearing in mind overtaking seems taboo nowadays.

Difficult one, as if you weren't to overtake in your original situation, then you're at the mercy of the cars in front having the car, skill and inclination to overtake and chance are they won't.

[mrmr96]

Assuming it's a road I don't know, then I will take the oppertunities as they arise, as you don't know what the car in front will do. (They may turn off, or speed up, or there may not be a car in front, or you may be able to pass them safely at the next oppertunity.) If I end up getting to the town or wherever I was travelling still behind the lead car, it does turn out that the overtake was 'a waste of time' - BUT I wouldn't let that potential outcome put me off.

IMO your passenger was in the wrong to take that attitude. As an advanced driver you will only overtake where it is safe and legal to do so, therefore there is no 'downside' as such. (Unlike a less skilled driver who will take risks and place themselves or others in danged to complete an overtake - they may see it as 'worth it' [i.e. worth the risk] if they end up with a clear road.)

Hope that makes sense.

(As an aside, the above was based on driving a road I'm not familiar with. On roads I know I will make a judgement based on the queue in front as to whether there are enough passing places between where I am and my destination to get to the front. If I judge that there are not enough potential overtaking spots then I won't even do the first one. This could also be misguided, however, as I could overtake a car and then all the others still in front of me pull off, leaving me with a clear road. However if I had not overtaken that one remaining car when I could have, then I'm stuck behind them whereas had I passed them I'd be away. On the other hand, having passed them and then the queue clearing could leave them willing to go faster than me and I'm then holding them up! There's a lot of potential scenarios, but the key message is only overtake when it's safe and legal and then there's no accusation of poor driving, even if it doesn't give you a clear road in the end.)

[Mag1calTrev0r]

jains15 said:

If you caused the car you overtook (and subsequently slotted in in front of) to brake or take avoiding action, then you may be on dodgey ground.

Absolutely not, I was careful to overtake correctly, my passenger knows I'm doing the IAM course and I suspect he was deliberately trying to pick fault. He is one of these self professed 'I don't care about my driving' types and is happy to dawdle along at whatever speed the car in front is doing.

jains15 said:

I asked the question (to my IAM observer) after I came up behind a slow car with 2 trailing cars doing 35mph in an NSL. I asked whether it was OK to overtake all 3 in one go, (I was doing 60mph - and would have been safe, no oncoming cars) and was told no.

I would personally agree with your observer. Being pedantic, each overtake should be taken individually, i.e. consider each car to be a separate overtake. Surely this is what he meant?

Responding to mrmr96 now: I know the road well, I knew it was safe to overtake the 1st car and make progress, I knew I could then possibly overtake the next car further down the line.

I think people do have a bad attitude to overtaking, I really don't understand why! :/

[mrmr96]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

I think people do have a bad attitude to overtaking, I really don't understand why! :/

I think there's a lot of 'anti car' brain washing going on at the moment. Also a lot of drivers are not particularly interested in their car or their own standard of driving and therefore judge others against their own inepitude. i.e. you perform safely an overtake which they in their car would have considered dangerous and would not have attempted - they therefore judge that you were dangerous because you were doing something they wouldn't feel comfortable doing themselves.

I'm a big advocat of compulsary re-testing to re-educate people who have been forgetting the highway code and developing bad habits for 30 or 40 years. It would make the roads a safer place to be if all drivers were more compitent. Joining the IAM is a great way to make yourself better - it's just a shame something like this isn't made compulsary.

[Steve Evil]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

jains15 said:

I asked the question (to my IAM observer) after I came up behind a slow car with 2 trailing cars doing 35mph in an NSL. I asked whether it was OK to overtake all 3 in one go, (I was doing 60mph - and would have been safe, no oncoming cars) and was told no.

I would personally agree with your observer. Being pedantic, each overtake should be taken individually, i.e. consider each car to be a separate overtake. Surely this is what he meant?

Why should you treat them individually? Obviously you'd check to see if any of them looked like they might be positioning themselves for an overtake, but provided you can see a space to slot back into and you've got room to make the move, then I'd just treat it as one extended overtake and then get past as quickly as possible.

[vonhosen]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

Sorry long winded title but please advise me on the following.

I'm traveling along a NSL single carriageway road, the car in front is doing 45mph. Nothing is coming towards me and I have plenty of time to safely overtake the other car.
There is another car ahead which, at the speed I'm traveling, I will catch up and may or may not be able to overtake further down the road.


I make the decision to overtake and complete the maneuver continue on my way and end up behind the other car. Unfortunately it wasn't then safe to overtake the second car so I stayed behind them.


The problem is, my passenger then accused me of 'being a cock' because 'the overtake didn't get me anywhere'.

Was I wrong to overtake? The 45mpher was holding me up on a long, clear and straight NSL road. Should we, as 'advanced drivers', take most opportunities to make progress if safe and legal to do so?

I am, of course, happy to learn from the experience if I'm proven to be wrong.

I don't see a problem (as you've described it).

It may be around the next bend there is a chance to overtake the 2nd car & if you hadn't taken the 1st when you did, you wouldn't now be in a position to take the 2nd.

You are choosing to make safe legal process that is faster than another who chooses a slower level of legal process.

You have to speculate to accumulate where overtakes are concerned, otherwise you are resigning yourself to the speed of the slowest vehicle ahead.
When I overtake I tend to find another vehicle in front at some point because there are a lot of cars out there.

[Mag1calTrev0r]

Steve Evil said:

Mag1calTrev0r said:

jains15 said:

I asked the question (to my IAM observer) after I came up behind a slow car with 2 trailing cars doing 35mph in an NSL. I asked whether it was OK to overtake all 3 in one go, (I was doing 60mph - and would have been safe, no oncoming cars) and was told no.

I would personally agree with your observer. Being pedantic, each overtake should be taken individually, i.e. consider each car to be a separate overtake. Surely this is what he meant?

Why should you treat them individually? Obviously you'd check to see if any of them looked like they might be positioning themselves for an overtake, but provided you can see a space to slot back into and you've got room to make the move, then I'd just treat it as one extended overtake and then get past as quickly as possible.

Well Roadcraft says (which I read after responding to you):
"If there is more than one vehicle , you may wish to consider a series of overtakes as one manoeuvre. While you may be able to plan these as one manoeuvre, each one should be appraised separately as the vehicles are approached."

It's ok to plan to overtake all the cars but you should mentally consider each one as a separate overtake. The hazards change all the time whilst you are overtaking and therefore you should be able to change your plans part way through.

[Mag1calTrev0r]

vonhosen said:

...stuff...

Thank you, that's reassuring for you to say so.

[CommanderJameson]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

my passenger then accused me of 'being a cock'

...at which point, I would have accused my passenger of 'being at extreme risk of being a sudden pedestrian if they don't keep their trap shut'.

[Steve Evil]

If you've got to change plans halfway through an overtake then you've not made a good enough appraisal in the first place, obviously if someone decides to pull out on you halfway through then you're going to have to take action, but you'd do this regardless of whether it was one overtake or a mentally considered set of three overtakes.

[Mag1calTrev0r]

Steve Evil said:

If you've got to change plans halfway through an overtake then you've not made a good enough appraisal in the first place, obviously if someone decides to pull out on you halfway through then you're going to have to take action, but you'd do this regardless of whether it was one overtake or a mentally considered set of three overtakes.

I appreciate what you're saying (and I'm certainly not suggesting that you're wrong) but surely if you split the over take in to individual overtakes then my thought process is not.

"Can I overtake 3 cars? Yes"
<overtake>
"Oh sh!t, I have no where to go"

and is now...

"Can I overtake car #1? Yes"
<overtake>
"Can I overtake car #2? Yes"
<overtake>
"Can I overtake car #3? No"
<pull back into lane>

That's my view anyway

[ScoobyChris]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

I appreciate what you're saying (and I'm certainly not suggesting that you're wrong) but surely if you split the over take in to individual overtakes then my thought process is not.

I'm not sure it's black and white so there is some flexibility. You're right in what you say about having a "place of safety" to slot into and if the 3 cars are nicely spaced you can simply stay offside and pick them off one by one, always knowing you have a nice gap to drop into if you need to.

The problem comes where they are bunched and they can't easily be picked off one by one. Do you sit behind them and wait until a gap develops or would it be safe to overtake them as a pair if they were both aware of your presence and were steady?

As always I think it depends on the situation and the co-operation of others

Chris

[Steve Evil]

Certainly coming at it from a biker perspective, I'd just be looking at the queue of traffic, I'd move out if necessary to see if I can get past the lot and had a space to slot back into, quick scan back along to see if there are any junctions or hazards and then I'd be gone.

There are often occasions where you can't overtake one, then commit to overtake the second etc. In a 3-car queue, you may be able to get past all three, but not commit to getting past just one as they're too close to the car in front of them and there simply isn't space for you to get back in between them without causing them to brake.

Obviously in an ideal world they would see you overtaking and back off to make it both quicker for you to get past and ensure you could get back in safely, but as already mentioned there are a lot of people who seem to think overtakers are akin to paedophiles.

edit: beaten to it about the bunching up...

Edited by Steve Evil on Wednesday 17th February 15:40

[p1esk]

CommanderJameson said:

Mag1calTrev0r said:

my passenger then accused me of 'being a cock'

...at which point, I would have accused my passenger of 'being at extreme risk of being a sudden pedestrian if they don't keep their trap shut'.

How are you getting on with that diplomacy course? Going well, is it?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Engineer1]

If you have to overtake all the slow moving cars in front or none, that's how stupidly long queues develop. I was always under the impression that you look to overtake safely, that means continually assessing the overtake manoeuvre, firstly is there a space to return to your lane should you need to? Secondly is there still enough clear road to get safely into the next gap without inconveniencing the other vehicles?

[HereBeMonsters]

Another case of the "overtaking is dangerous and only for racing drivers" sort of mentality? Really gets on my tits.

[Spitfire2]

Mag1calTrev0r said:

The problem is, my passenger then accused me of 'being a cock' because 'the overtake didn't get me anywhere'.

Tell your passenger to fk off and walk.

Then your safe overtake will have got you a lot further than his smartarse remark

[Ry_B]

I would have told your passenger to walk!

[blueg33]

I'm with the majority - the passenger needs to exercise his legs - he can walk!

If you overtake one car at a time, you can quickly get to the front of a queue. As long as each overtake is safe and properly executed there is no problem, whether you pass 1 car or 10 or 100 even.

According to my son I overtook 122 cars at the weekend in one manouvre - the M6 was quite busy