Yesterday's Dual Carriageway Experience
Discussion
I'd like to discuss something that happened yesterday to see if there better ways of dealing with this situation.
In the diagram, my car is in initially in the inside lane of a very quiet dual carriageway (the red line).
Shown by the orange line, is a Land Rover that is waiting to join my side of the dual carriageway from the center.
Because the road was so quiet I expected them to wait or join the outside lane. Instead they pulled straight across into lane 1, then braked to make the turning to the left.
I had to go to the outside to avoid them, not terribly dramatic but quite a bit closer than I would have liked - if they had made a late hesitation about which lane they were aiming for it could have been nasty..
Questions are this:
Should I have been more defensive and put the car in the outside lane when I saw them to prevent them coming out at all until I'd passed? But in doing so, I may have confused them into thinking I was moving over to turn right?
In the diagram, my car is in initially in the inside lane of a very quiet dual carriageway (the red line).
Shown by the orange line, is a Land Rover that is waiting to join my side of the dual carriageway from the center.
Because the road was so quiet I expected them to wait or join the outside lane. Instead they pulled straight across into lane 1, then braked to make the turning to the left.
I had to go to the outside to avoid them, not terribly dramatic but quite a bit closer than I would have liked - if they had made a late hesitation about which lane they were aiming for it could have been nasty..
Questions are this:
Should I have been more defensive and put the car in the outside lane when I saw them to prevent them coming out at all until I'd passed? But in doing so, I may have confused them into thinking I was moving over to turn right?
I can't really see anything wrong with what he did, although if it had been clear after you, it probably would have been better to stay put until you'd gone past. If he's stuck in the outside lane then that would have left me (I don't know about you), wondering what he was doing and therefore braking more heavily and staying behind rather than undertaking, at least once he was in the inside lane, you knew exactly what he was doing (left or straight on in the inside lane) and could make actions to avoid. All IMO and happy to hear otherwise.
Providing he had enough space, sounds like he did the right thing.
There's a similar set up near me, where a lot of cars and large trucks turn onto a DC. If they pull into L1, although they are crossing more lanes, it's much clearer for all concerned - you know that you can safely overtake. When occasionally someone pulls out and stays in L2, you have no idea what they're going to do next, so you get everyone slowing right down.
The "had enough space" is the important bit though.
There's a similar set up near me, where a lot of cars and large trucks turn onto a DC. If they pull into L1, although they are crossing more lanes, it's much clearer for all concerned - you know that you can safely overtake. When occasionally someone pulls out and stays in L2, you have no idea what they're going to do next, so you get everyone slowing right down.
The "had enough space" is the important bit though.
I do agree that he was in the correct lane for what he did, it isn't clear from what I've written, but I meant if he was in a rush to go ahead, he may have joined in the outside lane.
From my perpective, I didn't think he left enough space to join the lane I was in (inside) as I had to avoid him.
From my perpective, I didn't think he left enough space to join the lane I was in (inside) as I had to avoid him.
Beyond Rational said:
I do agree that he was in the correct lane for what he did, it isn't clear from what I've written, but I meant if he was in a rush to go ahead, he may have joined in the outside lane.
From my perpective, I didn't think he left enough space to join the lane I was in (inside) as I had to avoid him.
But if he'd joined lane two, at the time (not now you know what he was wanting to do), how would you have then reacted? Continued at speed up the inside risking him changing to lane 1 or braked behind him until you knew what he was planning to do? I would have done the latter, at least with moving into lane 1 you knew that you could pass him without slowing because he was 99% going left or straight ahead in lane one. If it's like you said then he should have stayed in the middle until you'd passed, but in the circumstances, I think he did the right thing.From my perpective, I didn't think he left enough space to join the lane I was in (inside) as I had to avoid him.
I think you did the right thing, I would not advise moving out towards the vehicle waiting to emerge as that puts you closer to the hazard, you should be aiming to position as far from the hazard as realistically possible.
Only possible suggestion is could you have missed some signs that he was about to pull out on you and reduced speed to give yourself more time to react? Difficult to say though without being there and seeing the body language of the other car first hand.
Only possible suggestion is could you have missed some signs that he was about to pull out on you and reduced speed to give yourself more time to react? Difficult to say though without being there and seeing the body language of the other car first hand.
Potential conflict - side junctions - aware. Check mirror.
Vehicle appears - hazard is active - crack off speed to create space.
Cover horn, check for cooperation. Lose further speed if necessary.
First sign of motion, or failure to make eye contact and confirm cooperation -- long blast on horn (and cheery wave of acknowledgement if cooperates).
If continues to cross and create conflict, full braking and avoidance -- ideally you will be able to stop behind him, so that even if he stops broadside you'll be able to avoid a collision.
Did you do all that?
Vehicle appears - hazard is active - crack off speed to create space.
Cover horn, check for cooperation. Lose further speed if necessary.
First sign of motion, or failure to make eye contact and confirm cooperation -- long blast on horn (and cheery wave of acknowledgement if cooperates).
If continues to cross and create conflict, full braking and avoidance -- ideally you will be able to stop behind him, so that even if he stops broadside you'll be able to avoid a collision.
Did you do all that?
7db said:
Potential conflict - side junctions - aware. Check mirror.
Vehicle appears - hazard is active - crack off speed to create space.
Cover horn, check for cooperation. Lose further speed if necessary.
First sign of motion, or failure to make eye contact and confirm cooperation -- long blast on horn (and cheery wave of acknowledgement if cooperates).
If continues to cross and create conflict, full braking and avoidance -- ideally you will be able to stop behind him, so that even if he stops broadside you'll be able to avoid a collision.
Did you do all that?
I'd have to say no, looking back, I think I missed or failed to interpret the body language, this could have been due to the angle of the junction, the relative higher sides of the vehicle and that the passenger could have been in line with the driver at certain points.Vehicle appears - hazard is active - crack off speed to create space.
Cover horn, check for cooperation. Lose further speed if necessary.
First sign of motion, or failure to make eye contact and confirm cooperation -- long blast on horn (and cheery wave of acknowledgement if cooperates).
If continues to cross and create conflict, full braking and avoidance -- ideally you will be able to stop behind him, so that even if he stops broadside you'll be able to avoid a collision.
Did you do all that?
7db said:
I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. Do you think that the reason he pulled out, then, is that he didn't see you at all?
I agree, don't beat yourself up over it. I frequently see drivers pulling out in front of oncoming vehicles; always expect the unexpected.One thought about your suggestion of an early move to lane 2, the outside lane, in anticipation of him moving across in to lane 1. You suggest that this would have allowed you to overtake the other car without any form of drama. I would counsel against that particular move because the other driver might mis-interpret your move to lane 2 as an intention on your part to turn right off the dual carriageway, notwithstanding the fact that you are not signalling that particular intention. Clearly this wouldn't have had any affect on your particular driver, he pulled out anyway, but on any another occasion it might be conclusive for another driver who was hesitating and not certain whether or not to pull out. Vehicle "body language" is quite a powerful subconscious message/signal and your move to lane 2 might be the "signal" that causes them to decide to pull out
Also, as someone else has pointed out, you would be moving the car to a place of danger, ie. closer to the vehicle that was stationary in the junction.
johnao said:
7db said:
I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. Do you think that the reason he pulled out, then, is that he didn't see you at all?
I agree, don't beat yourself up over it. I frequently see drivers pulling out in front of oncoming vehicles; always expect the unexpected.I also agree about your suggestion not to move to lane 2, the outside lane, in anticipation of him moving across in to lane 1. I would counsel against that particular move because the other driver might mis-interpret your move to lane 2 as an intention on your part to turn right off the dual carriageway, notwithstanding the fact that you are not signalling that particular intention. Clearly this wouldn't have had any affect on your particular driver, he pulled out anyway, but on any another occasion it might be conclusive for another driver who was hesitating and not certain whether or not to pull out. Vehicle "body language" is quite a powerful subconscious message/signal and your move to lane 2 might be the "signal" that causes them to decide to pull out
Also, as someone else has pointed out, you would be moving the car to a place of danger, ie. closer to the vehicle that was stationary in the junction.
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