Driving on the off side?
Discussion
Hi guys.
Wondered what the thoughts of ADers on here are over this situation:
I saw a video on YouTube earlier (cannot find it now
) where a police driver was in an unmarked car, no lights/sirens going. He was going round a sweeping left hand bend, and decided to go on to the off side in order to (I presume) increase his line point of view. He wasn't overtaking or anything, just generally driving on the off side. :O
I reckon though if another car was coming, it would have swerved on to the other side of the road (i.e. the near side) and this "advanced driver" would have also swerved back on to the near side. Thus resulting in a full head on...
Also, on an icy straight NSL road with good visibility (e.g. at night when you can see other cars headlights) would it be recommended to drivce over the middle lines? So that if you hit ice, and started to skid, you would have essentially twice the distance either side of your car, therefore minimising the effects of a crash/giving yourself more time and distance to recover.
Wondered what the thoughts of ADers on here are over this situation:
I saw a video on YouTube earlier (cannot find it now
) where a police driver was in an unmarked car, no lights/sirens going. He was going round a sweeping left hand bend, and decided to go on to the off side in order to (I presume) increase his line point of view. He wasn't overtaking or anything, just generally driving on the off side. :OI reckon though if another car was coming, it would have swerved on to the other side of the road (i.e. the near side) and this "advanced driver" would have also swerved back on to the near side. Thus resulting in a full head on...
Also, on an icy straight NSL road with good visibility (e.g. at night when you can see other cars headlights) would it be recommended to drivce over the middle lines? So that if you hit ice, and started to skid, you would have essentially twice the distance either side of your car, therefore minimising the effects of a crash/giving yourself more time and distance to recover.
i'm no superhero said:
Hi guys.
Wondered what the thoughts of ADers on here are over this situation:
I saw a video on YouTube earlier (cannot find it now) where a police driver was in an unmarked car, no lights/sirens going. He was going round a sweeping left hand bend, and decided to go on to the off side in order to (I presume) increase his line point of view. He wasn't overtaking or anything, just generally driving on the off side. :O
I reckon though if another car was coming, it would have swerved on to the other side of the road (i.e. the near side) and this "advanced driver" would have also swerved back on to the near side. Thus resulting in a full head on...
Also, on an icy straight NSL road with good visibility (e.g. at night when you can see other cars headlights) would it be recommended to drivce over the middle lines? So that if you hit ice, and started to skid, you would have essentially twice the distance either side of your car, therefore minimising the effects of a crash/giving yourself more time and distance to recover.
Offsiding is an "advanced" advanced technique that is recognised by fewer and fewer organisations. It can be an excellent tool for extending visibility around N/S bends, however you need to be very careful if you do it. If it goes wrong the first thing any witness will say is that you were on the "wrong" side of the road. Wondered what the thoughts of ADers on here are over this situation:
I saw a video on YouTube earlier (cannot find it now
) where a police driver was in an unmarked car, no lights/sirens going. He was going round a sweeping left hand bend, and decided to go on to the off side in order to (I presume) increase his line point of view. He wasn't overtaking or anything, just generally driving on the off side. :OI reckon though if another car was coming, it would have swerved on to the other side of the road (i.e. the near side) and this "advanced driver" would have also swerved back on to the near side. Thus resulting in a full head on...
Also, on an icy straight NSL road with good visibility (e.g. at night when you can see other cars headlights) would it be recommended to drivce over the middle lines? So that if you hit ice, and started to skid, you would have essentially twice the distance either side of your car, therefore minimising the effects of a crash/giving yourself more time and distance to recover.
I wouldn't advise offsiding for view on N/S bend without some sort of training. You can get used to positioning out towards the centre line (being mindfull of other hazards) on the approach to N/S bends, but I wouldn't advise crossing it unless you've had some sort of additional training on bend positioning.
I used to offside all the time, until one day I was approaching a dog leg bend, first right, then to the left. They were slight bends that gave a limited view in a straight line right through the middle. I negotiated the first (O/S) bend tucked in to the kerb, then went offside in preperation for the N/S bend, only to realise there was a hidden junction on the right that I only noticed when passing it, way too late to react if anything was emerging. I'd have been in deep doo-doo if I'd had a coming together whilst on the "wrong" side of the road.
Same goes for straddling the centre line. I routinely adopt this position for optimum distance from developing hazards on either side of the road. But I'm mindful of the way this could be viewed by others.
As stated, it is the police 'advanced line'. An additional 4 weeks training is normal on top of the circa 8 weeks already given to get that level. It is used where it would improve view round a NS bend, as well as being an 'advanced overtake' position for the earliest possible view.
It isn't a problem coming back to the nearside with something opposing, if the bend is so tight that you have to 'swerve' back to your lane then you are either going too fast or the bend is too tight. The movement back to the correct lane should be smooth and calculated.
I wouldnt attempt it you haven't had training, imagine the worst possible scenario where a layman standing up in court giving evidence against you. Ie, you were on the wrong side of the road then you crashed. great.
Should it happen to a Policeman then Im sure the head of driver training would explain it to a court as to why it is done and that they have passed a course and assessed drive doing so.
Neil.D
It isn't a problem coming back to the nearside with something opposing, if the bend is so tight that you have to 'swerve' back to your lane then you are either going too fast or the bend is too tight. The movement back to the correct lane should be smooth and calculated.
I wouldnt attempt it you haven't had training, imagine the worst possible scenario where a layman standing up in court giving evidence against you. Ie, you were on the wrong side of the road then you crashed. great.
Should it happen to a Policeman then Im sure the head of driver training would explain it to a court as to why it is done and that they have passed a course and assessed drive doing so.
Neil.D
Unless you can see round the corner far enough to know that you can safely get back onto your side of the road without an accident then you shouldn't do it. I do cut some corners when I know I can, mainly because it reduces steering inputs so the drive is smoother.
As for icy roads, it's much better to drive where other cars have driven as their tyres will have melted the ice a bit.
If the road is that icy you should be going so slowly that road positioning won't make much difference.
As for icy roads, it's much better to drive where other cars have driven as their tyres will have melted the ice a bit.
If the road is that icy you should be going so slowly that road positioning won't make much difference.
Syndrome said:
I've seen this several times first hand. I'm sorry but anyone but BiB would get points and a fine for being such a monumental 'tard.
A police officer (can't remember his name) who often posted links to videos showing him driving in various situations once commented that if done in a safe way he would not 'have a talk to' any motorist using this technique to improve his view around a LH bend. In fact I recall he was not against being on the 'wrong' side of the road on a RH bend provided that a clear view was available.Hi All
Due to the psychology of perception and the influence of the views of others it is often believed that the feeling of greater safety while offsiding is due to visibility rather than stability
If you do the maths, on a bend with limited visibility on the inside, on a normal two lane road at a safe speed (able to stop in less than half the distance that is known rather than assumed (see earlier post) to be clear), positioning doesn't allow one to see things any more than a matter of hundredths of a second earlier. This is time which cannot consistently make a difference to reaction times compared to the inconsistency of those times. Its influence is therefore effectively zero.
Due to the greater radius of turn when using all the road it is possible to go faster, or be further from the limit. This is what provides the feeling of greater security.
As the OP was also asking about driving on an icy NSL road I'd suggest following the advice of the Highway Code and be aware that it might take ten times or more than the normal distance to stop, as has been affirmed by recent posts on here. Driving more slowly is much more important than positioning when faced with potential low grip situations.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
Due to the psychology of perception and the influence of the views of others it is often believed that the feeling of greater safety while offsiding is due to visibility rather than stability
If you do the maths, on a bend with limited visibility on the inside, on a normal two lane road at a safe speed (able to stop in less than half the distance that is known rather than assumed (see earlier post) to be clear), positioning doesn't allow one to see things any more than a matter of hundredths of a second earlier. This is time which cannot consistently make a difference to reaction times compared to the inconsistency of those times. Its influence is therefore effectively zero.
Due to the greater radius of turn when using all the road it is possible to go faster, or be further from the limit. This is what provides the feeling of greater security.
As the OP was also asking about driving on an icy NSL road I'd suggest following the advice of the Highway Code and be aware that it might take ten times or more than the normal distance to stop, as has been affirmed by recent posts on here. Driving more slowly is much more important than positioning when faced with potential low grip situations.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
Martin A said:
If you do the maths, on a bend with limited visibility on the inside, on a normal two lane road at a safe speed (able to stop in less than half the distance that is known rather than assumed (see earlier post) to be clear),
Why do you have to be able to stop in half the distance you can see is clear?
Martin A said:
positioning doesn't allow one to see things any more than a matter of hundredths of a second earlier. This is time which cannot consistently make a difference to reaction times compared to the inconsistency of those times. Its influence is therefore effectively zero.
It depends on the bend. For example, I can think of lots of times where I've got overtakes in that I wouldn't if I hadn't been positioned properly.Martin A said:
Due to the greater radius of turn when using all the road it is possible to go faster, or be further from the limit. This is what provides the feeling of greater security.
It may be physically possible to go faster without falling off, but if you are going at a speed slow enough to enable you to return to nearside should you encounter a vehicle towards, then your speed through the bend would actually be slower than if you just stayed nearside without the possibility of having to tighten the bend by moving left. As we should be limited by view first and grip second, taking measures to extend that view as far as possible makes sense, no?Martin A said:
As the OP was also asking about driving on an icy NSL road I'd suggest following the advice of the Highway Code and be aware that it might take ten times or more than the normal distance to stop, as has been affirmed by recent posts on here. Driving more slowly is much more important than positioning when faced with potential low grip situations.
Agreed.Martin A said:
Due to the greater radius of turn when using all the road it is possible to go faster, or be further from the limit. This is what provides the feeling of greater security.
I'd argue that's more than a feeling of greater security.I think there's a balance to be struck with this technique - to adopt it you don't have to kiss the verge on the 'wrong' side of the road, you can even practice it within your lane. The balance of risk/reward varies with each corner and knowing where the optimal path is for your driving style can only come with experience.
Edited by cs02rm0 on Wednesday 13th January 11:09
Hi All
Why do you have to be able to stop in half the distance you can see is clear?You need to allow someone else coming the other way who can't see you at least as much time and distance to be able to stop for you, ideally more as they may be driving at a higher speed in a vehicle that takes longer to bring to a halt. Bear in mind these views are with safety and consideration for other road users, not progress, as a priority.
It's likely that although you didn't have a crash you were following at such a distance (less than your overall stopping distance for the speed you were at) that the driver in front may have felt unsafe. If this could be the case then for you making progress was more important than consideration for others. Some might say that following closely round an unsighted bend is not advanced driving. If you were sighted and sure it was completely safe why delay the overtake? Think also as to whether you broke the two second rule when pulling back in, necessitating the overtaken vehicle to have to slow down to maintain their safety margin.
No, to answer the first part of your question. As you are starting from further out the rest of the bend is still taken at a greater total radius so although the line needs to tighten it will still be less tight than if you'd started further in.
To answer the second part I would agree that view is more important than grip when setting speed. There are however other factors such as social responsibility and our awareness of the effect that we have on others which I believe RoSPA and IAM give a higher priority to. It is these skills that they use to distinguish 'advanced' driving from the driver in a hurry.
This is why I dislike the term 'advanced driver'. It is easy for anyone to label themselves as an advanced driver and allow awareness of what they are doing to be dulled or even justify their actions because of how they perceive their social position in the environment that they are in. This frequently happen to politicians it seems.
It is the skills that are advanced, not the person. I've frequently been followed by Police Class one drivers who don't obey the two second rule. They regard themselves as 'advanced' even when their driving practice wouldn't pass a driving test.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Martin A
Distant said:
Martin A said:
If you do the maths, on a bend with limited visibility on the inside, on a normal two lane road at a safe speed (able to stop in less than half the distance that is known rather than assumed (see earlier post) to be clear),
Why do you have to be able to stop in half the distance you can see is clear?
Distant said:
Martin A said:
positioning doesn't allow one to see things any more than a matter of hundredths of a second earlier. This is time which cannot consistently make a difference to reaction times compared to the inconsistency of those times. Its influence is therefore effectively zero.
It depends on the bend. For example, I can think of lots of times where I've got overtakes in that I wouldn't if I hadn't been positioned properly.Distant said:
Martin A said:
Due to the greater radius of turn when using all the road it is possible to go faster, or be further from the limit. This is what provides the feeling of greater security.
It may be physically possible to go faster without falling off, but if you are going at a speed slow enough to enable you to return to nearside should you encounter a vehicle towards, then your speed through the bend would actually be slower than if you just stayed nearside without the possibility of having to tighten the bend by moving left. As we should be limited by view first and grip second, taking measures to extend that view as far as possible makes sense, no?To answer the second part I would agree that view is more important than grip when setting speed. There are however other factors such as social responsibility and our awareness of the effect that we have on others which I believe RoSPA and IAM give a higher priority to. It is these skills that they use to distinguish 'advanced' driving from the driver in a hurry.
This is why I dislike the term 'advanced driver'. It is easy for anyone to label themselves as an advanced driver and allow awareness of what they are doing to be dulled or even justify their actions because of how they perceive their social position in the environment that they are in. This frequently happen to politicians it seems.
It is the skills that are advanced, not the person. I've frequently been followed by Police Class one drivers who don't obey the two second rule. They regard themselves as 'advanced' even when their driving practice wouldn't pass a driving test.
Distant said:
Martin A said:
As the OP was also asking about driving on an icy NSL road I'd suggest following the advice of the Highway Code and be aware that it might take ten times or more than the normal distance to stop, as has been affirmed by recent posts on here. Driving more slowly is much more important than positioning when faced with potential low grip situations.
Agreed.Best regards
Martin A
The police advanced line is fundamantally used for visibility. If greater visibility cannot be gained by using this 'offiside position' then it should not be used.
It is mostly used when overtaking on a nearside bend.
Should you be driving on the tight nearside of the road, using that for greater visibilty (the standard position) then when you see that the overtake is on then the lateral movement from nearside to offside can take 1 to 2 seconds and often the chance to overtake has gone.
I agree that police driving often doesnt comply with DSA standards but Police driving develops anticipation and planning therefore the '2 second rule' can be waved in certain circumstances such as overtaking.
Police driving also has a different system of car control that again, wouldnt comply with a DSA test.
It is mostly used when overtaking on a nearside bend.
Should you be driving on the tight nearside of the road, using that for greater visibilty (the standard position) then when you see that the overtake is on then the lateral movement from nearside to offside can take 1 to 2 seconds and often the chance to overtake has gone.
I agree that police driving often doesnt comply with DSA standards but Police driving develops anticipation and planning therefore the '2 second rule' can be waved in certain circumstances such as overtaking.
Police driving also has a different system of car control that again, wouldnt comply with a DSA test.
Glosphil said:
Syndrome said:
I've seen this several times first hand. I'm sorry but anyone but BiB would get points and a fine for being such a monumental 'tard.
A police officer (can't remember his name) who often posted links to videos showing him driving in various situations once commented that if done in a safe way he would not 'have a talk to' any motorist using this technique to improve his view around a LH bend. In fact I recall he was not against being on the 'wrong' side of the road on a RH bend provided that a clear view was available.Jem Thompson said:
Glosphil said:
Syndrome said:
I've seen this several times first hand. I'm sorry but anyone but BiB would get points and a fine for being such a monumental 'tard.
A police officer (can't remember his name) who often posted links to videos showing him driving in various situations once commented that if done in a safe way he would not 'have a talk to' any motorist using this technique to improve his view around a LH bend. In fact I recall he was not against being on the 'wrong' side of the road on a RH bend provided that a clear view was available.Jem Thompson said:
Glosphil said:
Syndrome said:
I've seen this several times first hand. I'm sorry but anyone but BiB would get points and a fine for being such a monumental 'tard.
A police officer (can't remember his name) who often posted links to videos showing him driving in various situations once commented that if done in a safe way he would not 'have a talk to' any motorist using this technique to improve his view around a LH bend. In fact I recall he was not against being on the 'wrong' side of the road on a RH bend provided that a clear view was available.I thought I would have a read of this thread as being an advanced driver myself thought I could shed some light. I started reading it at 15.30hours today and it made me fall asleep. I have only just come around from my bordem coma and for that reason have decided not to add my enlightening input to this subject. I hope you all understand the offside rule one day!
Ps if your making people swerve out of your way, then your not reading your limit points correctly.
Jim
IFG instructor (institute of f@^king greatness)
Ps if your making people swerve out of your way, then your not reading your limit points correctly.
Jim
IFG instructor (institute of f@^king greatness)
vonhosen said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Neil.D said:
Police driving also has a different system of car control that again, wouldnt comply with a DSA test.
In what way?Which doesn't mean I'm saying that it isn't compatible with a DSA test.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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