Driving in snow and ice conditions
Discussion
This weekend we've had a few inches of snow in the stockport area and last night's big freeze turned it mostly into solid ice. This afternoon I set out in the car and realised that our little cul-de-sac was trecherous, but figured that as the gritting depot is about 50 yards down the road that the main road would be reasonable by this time. Well they say that assumption is the mother of all **** ups!
The main road, it turns out was pretty much sheet ice under a thin layer of newly falling snow and the car was instantly difficult to drive. Some other road users seemed to be struggling, whilst others were alarmingly ploughing along at what appeared to be normal speeds without any visible problems. About 1/4 mile down the road, i was keeping in a high gear for my speed, leaving a huge gap between me and the car in front, and avoiding harsh braking, all the usual. The pedestrian crossing ahead changed to red and tried to use the engine braking to slow from about 15mph. I then applied the brakes lightly and the wheels instantly locked, followed by the ABS system (2005 mondeo btw) suddenly removing most of my braking input. I decided to try to let the abs do it's job, but it became clear that i was simply going to slide/free wheel past the crossing. A lady at the crossing started to put a foot out onto the road and so I leant on the horn and eventually came to a stop alongside her thankfully. My wife apologised saying that we'd been unable to stop properly.
I turned around and took some more snow covered roads back home very slowly where the car has stayed for the rest of the day!
What was the correct action for stopping the car in these conditions? Is the abs system actually a hinderence on ice, or are we all simply a passenger in a directionless lump of momentum in these situations, regardless of driver input?
Needless to say, as conditions don't appear to be improving, and I'm still having visions of nearly running that poor woman down, I'm intending to walk the 4 miles to work tomorrow morning instead.
Any advice or tips would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Chris
The main road, it turns out was pretty much sheet ice under a thin layer of newly falling snow and the car was instantly difficult to drive. Some other road users seemed to be struggling, whilst others were alarmingly ploughing along at what appeared to be normal speeds without any visible problems. About 1/4 mile down the road, i was keeping in a high gear for my speed, leaving a huge gap between me and the car in front, and avoiding harsh braking, all the usual. The pedestrian crossing ahead changed to red and tried to use the engine braking to slow from about 15mph. I then applied the brakes lightly and the wheels instantly locked, followed by the ABS system (2005 mondeo btw) suddenly removing most of my braking input. I decided to try to let the abs do it's job, but it became clear that i was simply going to slide/free wheel past the crossing. A lady at the crossing started to put a foot out onto the road and so I leant on the horn and eventually came to a stop alongside her thankfully. My wife apologised saying that we'd been unable to stop properly.
I turned around and took some more snow covered roads back home very slowly where the car has stayed for the rest of the day!
What was the correct action for stopping the car in these conditions? Is the abs system actually a hinderence on ice, or are we all simply a passenger in a directionless lump of momentum in these situations, regardless of driver input?
Needless to say, as conditions don't appear to be improving, and I'm still having visions of nearly running that poor woman down, I'm intending to walk the 4 miles to work tomorrow morning instead.
Any advice or tips would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Chris
In my experience ABS is absolutely hopeless in snow - newer systems maybe be better though.
Sometimes you can be slowing effectively with very gentle brake inputs, but as soon as ABS triggers the car stops decelerating, or if you're going downhill it can actually accelerate when ABS kicks in! In that situation you really have to just back off the brakes until the ABS deactivates, then try gentle braking again. You had the right idea using engine braking too, but it doesn't always slow you very fast.
Of course, sometimes (normal tyres on sheet ice for example) there just isn't enough grip to do anything and you won't stop until you reach a grippier surface (or solid object) whatever you do with the brakes.
Sometimes you can be slowing effectively with very gentle brake inputs, but as soon as ABS triggers the car stops decelerating, or if you're going downhill it can actually accelerate when ABS kicks in! In that situation you really have to just back off the brakes until the ABS deactivates, then try gentle braking again. You had the right idea using engine braking too, but it doesn't always slow you very fast.
Of course, sometimes (normal tyres on sheet ice for example) there just isn't enough grip to do anything and you won't stop until you reach a grippier surface (or solid object) whatever you do with the brakes.
Hi All
This post illustrates what few people seem to believe, even though it says in the Highway Code, that stopping distances can be ten times or more than normal in such conditions. As a guide, if you feel you need to walk differently to maintain your balance, allow ten times your normal stopping distance unless of course safety is not your main priority.
Use of the handbrake, or switching off the engine if this disables the ABS, both at low speed only, may help but may not. This should best be discovered in a non pressure situation on private ground.
Hope this helps.
Best regards
Martin A
This post illustrates what few people seem to believe, even though it says in the Highway Code, that stopping distances can be ten times or more than normal in such conditions. As a guide, if you feel you need to walk differently to maintain your balance, allow ten times your normal stopping distance unless of course safety is not your main priority.
Use of the handbrake, or switching off the engine if this disables the ABS, both at low speed only, may help but may not. This should best be discovered in a non pressure situation on private ground.
Hope this helps.
Best regards
Martin A
Martin A said:
Use of the handbrake, or switching off the engine if this disables the ABS, both at low speed only, may help but may not. This should best be discovered in a non pressure situation on private ground.
I agree about the trying it off road first, but I'd be surprised if the braking system on a servo equipped car is designed to be operated without the engine running. The hyrdaulic advantage probably wouldn't be designed in as it is in a non servo equipped car? Likewise for the steering, and it's nice to have steering in an emergency 
Hi All
If the car has no grip there will be little resistance to turning the wheel and even if you do it won't influence the direction of travel. By removing servo brake assistance it is less likely that the fronts will lock but as already mentioned don't expect it to make much difference.
Hope this helps
Merry Christmas
Martin A
If the car has no grip there will be little resistance to turning the wheel and even if you do it won't influence the direction of travel. By removing servo brake assistance it is less likely that the fronts will lock but as already mentioned don't expect it to make much difference.
Hope this helps
Merry Christmas
Martin A
Martin A said:
Hi All
This post illustrates what few people seem to believe, even though it says in the Highway Code, that stopping distances can be ten times or more than normal in such conditions. As a guide, if you feel you need to walk differently to maintain your balance, allow ten times your normal stopping distance unless of course safety is not your main priority.
Use of the handbrake, or switching off the engine if this disables the ABS, both at low speed only, may help but may not. This should best be discovered in a non pressure situation on private ground.
Hope this helps.
Best regards
Martin A
Wow, be very very careful popping that advice out......so someone reads on here, oh to stop in the snow I turn the engine off, so what will they do, turn it off and lock the steering!!!! Also to lose your power steering etc seems a crazy thing to do. I WOULD NOT ADVISE THIS.....AARGH, crash....... This post illustrates what few people seem to believe, even though it says in the Highway Code, that stopping distances can be ten times or more than normal in such conditions. As a guide, if you feel you need to walk differently to maintain your balance, allow ten times your normal stopping distance unless of course safety is not your main priority.
Use of the handbrake, or switching off the engine if this disables the ABS, both at low speed only, may help but may not. This should best be discovered in a non pressure situation on private ground.
Hope this helps.
Best regards
Martin A
Down the gears into first - rev matching (I favour DDC as its easier to get a smoother change) - if you don't match the revs the wheels will lock up though but I'd still drop down the gears and into first (edit: didn't read your post properly - assume you used first!). You can use fresh snow at the side of the road to find more grip over ice in the middle of the road - you can also use the curb if there are no pedestrians around to brush against - steer into it almost from parallel to the curb gently. If the wheels do lock up try going from lock to lock to get more friction (turning the opposite way when the car starts reacting to the lock). (And use handbrake/as mentioned...)
Also look for soft landing sites to crash into softly rather than risk a more severve collision with pedestrians/other road users....
At low speeds (<10 mph!) if the car won't stop you could also try using reverse and gently using some revs - might be possible to reduce some speed that way!
Also look for soft landing sites to crash into softly rather than risk a more severve collision with pedestrians/other road users....
At low speeds (<10 mph!) if the car won't stop you could also try using reverse and gently using some revs - might be possible to reduce some speed that way!
Edited by dom180 on Monday 21st December 20:24
I found that spending some time on a skid pan earlier in the year really helped driving in the current conditions. It helps to prepare you for the sort of conditions that we currently face and how to deal with them in a safe manner.
My girlfriends car has ABS and as with the OP it is useless in the this weather (would it be so hard to either have a snow setting or be able to turn it off in these conditions). I find using the handbreak much more effective in the circumstances desribed above, if you are allowing yourself extra time for the conditions all of your breaking should be done with all 4 wheels pointing in the same direction. This means you can use the handbreak to reduce your speed, if the ABS and engine breaking arent working, whilst in a straight line and then release the handbreak once at the hazard.
Thanks to everyone for your input, some interesting points made.
I must admit, I did consider trying to shift into reverse at the time and see if it helped at all.
The roads were muched improved this morning, but it's now snowing pretty heavily again, so it could be another eventful drive home this evening.
I must admit, I did consider trying to shift into reverse at the time and see if it helped at all.
The roads were muched improved this morning, but it's now snowing pretty heavily again, so it could be another eventful drive home this evening.
5 1/2 hours to travel 35 miles home last night but at least, unlike a great many people, I did get home! Lessons learned (or rather, reinforced) are:
- traffic means that however competent you or your car is in snow, when you're stuck in traffic, you're stuck!
- there is absolutely no substitute for leaving a huge amount of space between you and the car in front,
- modern summer tyres just won't gain traction on any kind of incline,
- use as high a gear as possible, especially when setting off from standstill,
- be as gentle as possible with all control inputs (brakes, throttle, steering),
- In soft snow ABS, as has been said, gives less deceleration than locked wheels which then build up a wedge of snow in front of the wheel,
- traction control is a real help in maintaining progress without drama on comparatively level roads. It also got me further up a hill than I expected (but not quite far enough!). However, if you need to dig through the snow to find grip, then you need to turn T/C off.
- Electronic stability control objects if you try to make a handbrake turn without turning it off first! And I haven't worked out if trying to correct a slide yourself helps or hinders the efforts of the stability control system.
The final lesson is that since we're now only in December, if anyone can predict much more weather like this it will be worth buying snow chains/socks. I would say winter tyres but since it's a lease car, the lease company is very insistent on what tyres can be fitted and they don't seem to think that winter tyres are necessary.
And a final final thought: next time I should take my wife's Freelander which is fitted with All Terrain tyres and just shrugs off this kind of thing!
- traffic means that however competent you or your car is in snow, when you're stuck in traffic, you're stuck!
- there is absolutely no substitute for leaving a huge amount of space between you and the car in front,
- modern summer tyres just won't gain traction on any kind of incline,
- use as high a gear as possible, especially when setting off from standstill,
- be as gentle as possible with all control inputs (brakes, throttle, steering),
- In soft snow ABS, as has been said, gives less deceleration than locked wheels which then build up a wedge of snow in front of the wheel,
- traction control is a real help in maintaining progress without drama on comparatively level roads. It also got me further up a hill than I expected (but not quite far enough!). However, if you need to dig through the snow to find grip, then you need to turn T/C off.
- Electronic stability control objects if you try to make a handbrake turn without turning it off first! And I haven't worked out if trying to correct a slide yourself helps or hinders the efforts of the stability control system.
The final lesson is that since we're now only in December, if anyone can predict much more weather like this it will be worth buying snow chains/socks. I would say winter tyres but since it's a lease car, the lease company is very insistent on what tyres can be fitted and they don't seem to think that winter tyres are necessary.
And a final final thought: next time I should take my wife's Freelander which is fitted with All Terrain tyres and just shrugs off this kind of thing!
gdaybruce said:
- Electronic stability control objects if you try to make a handbrake turn without turning it off first! And I haven't worked out if trying to correct a slide yourself helps or hinders the efforts of the stability control system.
vonhosen said:
gdaybruce said:
- Electronic stability control objects if you try to make a handbrake turn without turning it off first! And I haven't worked out if trying to correct a slide yourself helps or hinders the efforts of the stability control system.
[quote]As it has sensors both monitoring steering input (where you want the car to turn towards) & yaw rate of vehicle (where it's actually pointing relative to that), with it then attempting to reduce the difference between these two, I suppose that depends on what input & how much of it you are putting on in order to try & correct.
gdaybruce said:
5 1/2 hours to travel 35 miles home last night but at least, unlike a great many people, I did get home! Lessons learned (or rather, reinforced) are:
- traffic means that however competent you or your car is in snow, when you're stuck in traffic, you're stuck!
- there is absolutely no substitute for leaving a huge amount of space between you and the car in front,
- modern summer tyres just won't gain traction on any kind of incline,
- use as high a gear as possible, especially when setting off from standstill,
- be as gentle as possible with all control inputs (brakes, throttle, steering),
- In soft snow ABS, as has been said, gives less deceleration than locked wheels which then build up a wedge of snow in front of the wheel,
- traction control is a real help in maintaining progress without drama on comparatively level roads. It also got me further up a hill than I expected (but not quite far enough!). However, if you need to dig through the snow to find grip, then you need to turn T/C off.
- Electronic stability control objects if you try to make a handbrake turn without turning it off first! And I haven't worked out if trying to correct a slide yourself helps or hinders the efforts of the stability control system.
The final lesson is that since we're now only in December, if anyone can predict much more weather like this it will be worth buying snow chains/socks. I would say winter tyres but since it's a lease car, the lease company is very insistent on what tyres can be fitted and they don't seem to think that winter tyres are necessary.
And a final final thought: next time I should take my wife's Freelander which is fitted with All Terrain tyres and just shrugs off this kind of thing!
I will be buying snow chains or socks shortly. It would appear that "climate cack" or "loony warming" means that Basingstoke has turned into Snow Central for the last few years.- traffic means that however competent you or your car is in snow, when you're stuck in traffic, you're stuck!
- there is absolutely no substitute for leaving a huge amount of space between you and the car in front,
- modern summer tyres just won't gain traction on any kind of incline,
- use as high a gear as possible, especially when setting off from standstill,
- be as gentle as possible with all control inputs (brakes, throttle, steering),
- In soft snow ABS, as has been said, gives less deceleration than locked wheels which then build up a wedge of snow in front of the wheel,
- traction control is a real help in maintaining progress without drama on comparatively level roads. It also got me further up a hill than I expected (but not quite far enough!). However, if you need to dig through the snow to find grip, then you need to turn T/C off.
- Electronic stability control objects if you try to make a handbrake turn without turning it off first! And I haven't worked out if trying to correct a slide yourself helps or hinders the efforts of the stability control system.
The final lesson is that since we're now only in December, if anyone can predict much more weather like this it will be worth buying snow chains/socks. I would say winter tyres but since it's a lease car, the lease company is very insistent on what tyres can be fitted and they don't seem to think that winter tyres are necessary.
And a final final thought: next time I should take my wife's Freelander which is fitted with All Terrain tyres and just shrugs off this kind of thing!
bodhi808 said:
Thanks to everyone for your input, some interesting points made.
I must admit, I did consider trying to shift into reverse at the time and see if it helped at all.
The roads were muched improved this morning, but it's now snowing pretty heavily again, so it could be another eventful drive home this evening.
I tried it last night (in a controlled, off-road environment - very icey) and it seemed to work quite well - a small crunch getting reverse but a few revs and the wheels spinning away soon killed the speed - quicker than my Ford's primative hardly worth the effort mk 1 ABS system.I must admit, I did consider trying to shift into reverse at the time and see if it helped at all.
The roads were muched improved this morning, but it's now snowing pretty heavily again, so it could be another eventful drive home this evening.
Dr Jekyll said:
Does anyone know of a skid training facility with a decent slope available?
They all seem to be airfields, or in Scandinavia the occasional frozen lake, but it's getting up and down hills that's causing most of the problems.
Other than off road courses for 4x4 driving, I don't think they exist. Skid pans need to be flat to prevent the water and solvent mix they use to create a low friction surface from draining away.They all seem to be airfields, or in Scandinavia the occasional frozen lake, but it's getting up and down hills that's causing most of the problems.
There is a school of thought on the winter tyres thread that people who say ABS is completely useless in snow are the ones on summer tyres.
If you have the right rubber ABS works quite well, yes the degree of retardation is less than on clear tarmac but there is enough grip to brake and steer. In fact it's in those conditions where the grip is also patchy that you can feel brake force distribution really at work.
Just my 2p.
All our cars, apart from one (strangely enough it lives in Sweden and only comes out in summer) all have cold weather tyres on. The ones on SWMBO car replaced a set of OEM Firestones which are declared to be all weather fuel saver tyres. Fuel saver? I have no idea. All weather definitely not, and conditions where its cool <10C and damp and these things were ditch finders, and any snow / ice the thing couldn't even get up our drive which is on a scarcely discernible slope.
So re winter tyres my money is where my mouth is.
If you have the right rubber ABS works quite well, yes the degree of retardation is less than on clear tarmac but there is enough grip to brake and steer. In fact it's in those conditions where the grip is also patchy that you can feel brake force distribution really at work.
Just my 2p.
All our cars, apart from one (strangely enough it lives in Sweden and only comes out in summer) all have cold weather tyres on. The ones on SWMBO car replaced a set of OEM Firestones which are declared to be all weather fuel saver tyres. Fuel saver? I have no idea. All weather definitely not, and conditions where its cool <10C and damp and these things were ditch finders, and any snow / ice the thing couldn't even get up our drive which is on a scarcely discernible slope.
So re winter tyres my money is where my mouth is.
gdaybruce said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Does anyone know of a skid training facility with a decent slope available?
They all seem to be airfields, or in Scandinavia the occasional frozen lake, but it's getting up and down hills that's causing most of the problems.
Other than off road courses for 4x4 driving, I don't think they exist. Skid pans need to be flat to prevent the water and solvent mix they use to create a low friction surface from draining away.They all seem to be airfields, or in Scandinavia the occasional frozen lake, but it's getting up and down hills that's causing most of the problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGKhMCEmQMM&fea...
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