Opposition views

[Dr Jekyll]

What do politicians and councillors think of the concept of advanced driving? (I'm using advanced driving in the Roadcraft sense not the car control/skidpan/track driving sense).

Do they just think it's a waste of time? Are they baffled by the concept? Do they assume that anyone who takes driving seriously is an enthusiast and therefore evil? Or do they see it as a subversive practice which encourages people to think for themselves rather than rely on the infallible dictates of authority?

[vonhosen]

I don't think they see roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law.

[Distant]

Most of them have probably never heard of it.

[Dr Jekyll]

vonhosen said:

I don't think they see roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law.

Excuse me, what did I say that could possibly be interpreted as 'do they see Roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law'?

[Distant]

Dr Jekyll said:

vonhosen said:

I don't think they see roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law.

Excuse me, what did I say that could possibly be interpreted as 'do they see Roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law'?

I think it was the 'free thinking' bit that got Robo-von on edge...

[flemke]

Dr Jekyll said:

What do politicians and councillors think of the concept of advanced driving? (I'm using advanced driving in the Roadcraft sense not the car control/skidpan/track driving sense).

Do they just think it's a waste of time? Are they baffled by the concept? Do they assume that anyone who takes driving seriously is an enthusiast and therefore evil? Or do they see it as a subversive practice which encourages people to think for themselves rather than rely on the infallible dictates of authority?

People go into politics because they believe that they know better than you do how you ought to live your life, and they enjoy having the power to impose their presuppositions and sentiments upon you.
Ergo, they want you to take driving seriously in the sense that they want you to take seriously their own views on how (and when, and where) you should drive. They most certainly do not want you to take driving seriously if that would mean your doing something that was different from what they themselves would prefer.

[Dr Jekyll]

flemke said:

Dr Jekyll said:

What do politicians and councillors think of the concept of advanced driving? (I'm using advanced driving in the Roadcraft sense not the car control/skidpan/track driving sense).

Do they just think it's a waste of time? Are they baffled by the concept? Do they assume that anyone who takes driving seriously is an enthusiast and therefore evil? Or do they see it as a subversive practice which encourages people to think for themselves rather than rely on the infallible dictates of authority?

People go into politics because they believe that they know better than you do how you ought to live your life, and they enjoy having the power to impose their presuppositions and sentiments upon you.
Ergo, they want you to take driving seriously in the sense that they want you to take seriously their own views on how (and when, and where) you should drive. They most certainly do not want you to take driving seriously if that would mean your doing something that was different from what they themselves would prefer.

What is interesting though, is how they feel about you doing what they would prefer, but on your own initiative rather than waiting for orders.

For example slowing down for a 20 MPH hazard in an NSL, rather than demanding a 20 limit to save you from having to think.

[vonhosen]

Dr Jekyll said:

vonhosen said:

I don't think they see roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law.

Excuse me, what did I say that could possibly be interpreted as 'do they see Roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law'?

It's what I took you to mean by that

Dr Jekyll said:

Or do they see it as a subversive practice which encourages people to think for themselves rather than rely on the infallible dictates of authority?

If the meaning was other than I interpreted that, then I'm listening as to what was meant.

[vonhosen]

Distant said:

Most of them have probably never heard of it.

Some will have & some won't have, just like the public at large.
Some will also have an interest & others not, again just as in the public at large.

[Dr Jekyll]

vonhosen said:

Dr Jekyll said:

vonhosen said:

I don't think they see roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law.

Excuse me, what did I say that could possibly be interpreted as 'do they see Roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law'?

It's what I took you to mean by that

Dr Jekyll said:

Or do they see it as a subversive practice which encourages people to think for themselves rather than rely on the infallible dictates of authority?

If the meaning was other than I interpreted that, then I'm listening as to what was meant.

For example slowing down to less than the legal limit for a hazard, rather than waiting for the all seeing all knowing Authorities to reduce the limit.

[vonhosen]

Dr Jekyll said:

vonhosen said:

Dr Jekyll said:

vonhosen said:

I don't think they see roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law.

Excuse me, what did I say that could possibly be interpreted as 'do they see Roadcraft as encouraging you to break the law'?

It's what I took you to mean by that

Dr Jekyll said:

Or do they see it as a subversive practice which encourages people to think for themselves rather than rely on the infallible dictates of authority?

If the meaning was other than I interpreted that, then I'm listening as to what was meant.

For example slowing down to less than the legal limit for a hazard, rather than waiting for the all seeing all knowing Authorities to reduce the limit.

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't think the speed limit is telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 7th November 14:52

[Spokey]

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't see the speed limit as telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

Do "they"? Well, I'm sure "they" are all grateful that "we" have the all-knowing vonhosen to tell "us" what "they" all think.

[SamHH]

Spokey said:

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't see the speed limit as telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

Do "they"? Well, I'm sure "they" are all grateful that "we" have the all-knowing vonhosen to tell "us" what "they" all think.

Why are you complaining about someone answering the questions that were asked?

[vonhosen]

Spokey said:

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't see the speed limit as telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

Do "they"? Well, I'm sure "they" are all grateful that "we" have the all-knowing vonhosen to tell "us" what "they" all think.

If they were stating that the speed limit is the only safe speed for that road, they'd be expecting you to do that speed irrespective of circumstances. Show me one who thinks that you should travel at the speed limit & never drop below it for any circumstance.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 7th November 14:55

[Dr Jekyll]

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't think the speed limit is telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

I was just giving one example of the conflict between the requirement for the driver to take responsibility for his/her safety and that of those around, and the wish of the authorities for total control. They may expect you to do it on a DSA test, but the reason we try to make our driving 'advanced' even in a relative sense is to improve our ability to spot such situations and respond in plenty of time.

[Spokey]

vonhosen said:

Spokey said:

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't see the speed limit as telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

Do "they"? Well, I'm sure "they" are all grateful that "we" have the all-knowing vonhosen to tell "us" what "they" all think.

If they were stating that the speed limit is the only safe speed for that road, they'd be expecting you to do that speed irrespective of circumstances. Show me one who thinks that you should travel at the speed limit & never drop below it for any circumstance.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 7th November 14:55

I think you'll find that people have been conditioned to think exactly that, precisely because our betters don't want us to do any thinking of our own.

[vonhosen]

Spokey said:

vonhosen said:

Spokey said:

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't see the speed limit as telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

Do "they"? Well, I'm sure "they" are all grateful that "we" have the all-knowing vonhosen to tell "us" what "they" all think.

If they were stating that the speed limit is the only safe speed for that road, they'd be expecting you to do that speed irrespective of circumstances. Show me one who thinks that you should travel at the speed limit & never drop below it for any circumstance.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 7th November 14:55

I think you'll find that people have been conditioned to think exactly that, precisely because our betters don't want us to do any thinking of our own.

Oh really.

I haven't seen a single person on the roads who always drives at exactly what the speed limit is (all of the time irrespective of circumstance) & I haven't seen anyone suggest that's what they should be doing.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 7th November 15:18

[SamHH]

Spokey said:

I think you'll find that people have been conditioned to think exactly that, precisely because our betters don't want us to do any thinking of our own.

You're making it up to be melodramatic. If you've ever been on the road, you'll know that nobody drives at the speed limit all the time.

[Spokey]

SamHH said:

Spokey said:

I think you'll find that people have been conditioned to think exactly that, precisely because our betters don't want us to do any thinking of our own.

You're making it up to be melodramatic. If you've ever been on the road, you'll know that nobody drives at the speed limit all the time.

No. Sometimes they're looking for parking.

[vonhosen]

Dr Jekyll said:

vonhosen said:

How do they see that as subversive practice or even advanced ?
They expect you to do it for your basic DSA test.
They don't think the speed limit is telling you what the safe speed is at any given time. It defines the boundaries within which you are to choose a safe speed.

I was just giving one example of the conflict between the requirement for the driver to take responsibility for his/her safety and that of those around, and the wish of the authorities for total control. They may expect you to do it on a DSA test, but the reason we try to make our driving 'advanced' even in a relative sense is to improve our ability to spot such situations and respond in plenty of time.

I don't think it's a very good example though.
I don't see it the same way you do. I see the driver as having freedom, all be it within defined boundaries & that there is no authority total control. The only way for the authorities to have total control over the driving input is to remove the driver.
The DSA test is just the minimum basic competency test in order to drive unsupervised & anyone should be striving to improve over that. Sadly though a lot (& that no doubt includes some people who hold an 'advanced' certificate), could fail their DSA test if they were suddenly forced to retake a DSA test today with no warning.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 7th November 15:34