Spotting other Advanced Drivers

[erdnase]

Although there's no sure fire way to spot other advanced drivers on the roads, there's always little things I notice that make me think "Aha, he knows what he's doing". It's satisfying to see a well driven car keeping a safe distance on the motorways, and also seeing someones brakelights come on before a corner, and go out again as they negotiate the corner. Also, seeing someone stopped at lights with a good space between them and the car in front.

What other driving habits do you notice on your day to day drives that indicate to you that the driver might be an advanced driver?

Edited by erdnase on Wednesday 4th November 09:02

[andy_s]

Road positioning and over taking method are the most obvious to me.

[Don]

Yep. Road positioning. Brake lights prior to the turn. Brake lights going on just the once. Brake lights OFF at a standstill. Lights on in dappled light. Fogs on only at the correct times.

Oh. Consistently faster progress in a rural environment with no risk taking. Easy to spot that one. The loons pile into the corners ADs don't.

[p1esk]

Good progress, but without looking hurried or impatient in any way, and behaving in an easygoing give and take fashion with other road users.

I agree with the points already made, except that seeing the brake lights still on as a car turns into a bend doesn't (to my mind at least) disqualify somebody from being an advanced driver. It probably would do if they went off through the hedge backwards of course.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[dibbers006]

• People who rarely brake but maintain road position and momentum
• Keeping good distance on Motorways and predicting gaps, overtakes
• Those that are a joy to follow or have behind you because they are predictable and smooth

[heebeegeetee]

p1esk said:

I agree with the points already made, except that seeing the brake lights still on as a car turns into a bend doesn't (to my mind at least) disqualify somebody from being an advanced driver.

Alain Prost was known for braking up to the apex.

I much prefer to look for good drivers, rather than adopt the 'treat everyone as an idiot' mentality.

[Don]

heebeegeetee said:

Alain Prost was known for braking up to the apex.

Lots of racing drivers trail brake. Actively managing grip for braking vs grip for turning right the way through the corner.

On the road, for maximum safety margin, Roadcraft recommends completing braking in a straight line then letting the car settle then turning in to allow the majority of grip to be used for turning - with a big safety margin.

Remember that when you are driving through a corner you can't see around you still have to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear - despite turning - hence the recommendation to create extra margin.

In this case I don't think that the track technique bears very directly on what is safest on road...and remember ADs will primarily be concerned with safety - alongside good progress.

Just my 2p worth.

[p1esk]

I'm the last person to want to draw too much of a parallel between track driving (of which I have no experience) and good safe driving on public roads, but in some cases a bit of braking continuing into a bend need not be detrimental to anything. In fact some experts consider it can be helpful, if done to an appropriate degree in the right circumstances.

....and that's just my 1p worth.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[bluetone]

Don said:

Brake lights OFF at a standstill.

Hi Don, can you explain the problem with this to me, I am not IAM trained.

If I am waiting at the lights to turn right etc I generally sit on tbe brake pedal so that my vehicle is more visible to traffic to the rear and also, in the event of a rear-end shunt whilst in this position, my brakes are going to offer far more retardation than just the handbrake.

So I am interested to know the logic, thanks!

[Phisp]

Don said:

Oh. Consistently faster progress in a rural environment with no risk taking. Easy to spot that one. The loons pile into the corners ADs don't.

Hmmm, now I have just completed my IAM training I seem to be the slowest thing on rural roads. Perhaps my saftey margins are too large? Or perhaps everyone else I seem to encounter on my cross county drives has no concept of a safety margin?

[heebeegeetee]

Phisp said:

Or perhaps everyone else I seem to encounter on my cross county drives has no concept of a safety margin?

Are you passing lots of crashed cars?

[Phisp]

heebeegeetee said:

Phisp said:

Or perhaps everyone else I seem to encounter on my cross county drives has no concept of a safety margin?

Are you passing lots of crashed cars?

Lol, no! Though that could mean they have been lucky enough not to need a saftey margin

Edited by Phisp on Wednesday 4th November 12:35

[heebeegeetee]

Phisp said:

heebeegeetee said:

Phisp said:

Or perhaps everyone else I seem to encounter on my cross county drives has no concept of a safety margin?

Are you passing lots of crashed cars?

Lol, no! Though that could mean they have been lucky enough not to need a saftey margin.

Those country lanes have existed for a long, long time, and I don't think that luck can exist for that length of time.

[Don]

bluetone said:

Don said:

Brake lights OFF at a standstill.

Hi Don, can you explain the problem with this to me, I am not IAM trained.

If I am waiting at the lights to turn right etc I generally sit on tbe brake pedal so that my vehicle is more visible to traffic to the rear and also, in the event of a rear-end shunt whilst in this position, my brakes are going to offer far more retardation than just the handbrake.

So I am interested to know the logic, thanks!

Lets say you are in a queue. Brake lights dazzle the guy behind. Mostly you will be in a queue - so it's just a bit of politeness. Do the brake lights make you more visible? Yes they DO! I might consider keeping my brake lights lit just as you describe if, under the specific circumstances, there was an advantage...but not at the cost of dazzling the guy behind.

Another point when stationary, say waiting for a junction. I will have the wheels pointing straight forward, I'll be in neutral with my foot off the clutch and generally I'll have my feet off the pedals with the handbrake deployed. Reason? If someone screws up and rear-ends me I'd rather be pushed straight forward. If I was in-gear with the wheels turned and my foot came off the clutch I'd turn into the oncoming traffic.

[7db]

Never sure about this.

If you are in a collision, the direction of your travel will be governed by the impulse in the impact, which will almost certainly overcome the grip of the types at the road. In other words you'll go where you go regardless of where the wheels are pointing. Post impact you might roll with the tyres, but you may have already been subject to significant yaw at this stage.

In neutral with hb on, you have little opportunity to drive out of the way of the thing that is about to hit you, and -- chivalrously -- let the car in front of you do the crashing.

[RenesisEvo]

My thoughts on this:

Something I do if waiting at a junction at night is place / keep my foot on the brake when stationary if I see a car approaching from behind (especially when coming in at speed as they normally do), to ensure they get the message that I have braked / stopped. Once a car queues behind me (and effectively forms a barrier to the next one plowing in from behind)I will release the pedal to avoid dazzling them.

Generally I'd have the hand-brake applied: if you get hit from behind it will be extremely difficult to keep any form of pressure on the brake pedal. I would also argue that not always will the impulse from the impact overcome the grip of the vehicle's tyres, thus turning the wheels is probably not the best idea.

Also, I know you are meant to leave the 'tyres and tarmac' space in front, but at a busy junction that still does not give you many places to go to drive out of the way. I'd rather save my clutch release bearing and be in neutral and off the clutch altogether. (having ruined the bearing on my last car, I learnt this one the hard way).

Might be wandering a little off-topic here.

Edited by RenesisEvo on Wednesday 4th November 15:35

[RobM77]

Don said:

heebeegeetee said:

Alain Prost was known for braking up to the apex.

Lots of racing drivers trail brake. Actively managing grip for braking vs grip for turning right the way through the corner.

On the road, for maximum safety margin, Roadcraft recommends completing braking in a straight line then letting the car settle then turning in to allow the majority of grip to be used for turning - with a big safety margin.

Remember that when you are driving through a corner you can't see around you still have to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear - despite turning - hence the recommendation to create extra margin.

In this case I don't think that the track technique bears very directly on what is safest on road...and remember ADs will primarily be concerned with safety - alongside good progress.

Just my 2p worth.

I'd be inclined to disagree. Put simply, track driving is about making the limit as high as possible. A really good racing driver is faster than his competitors because he averages a higher speed around the race track than anyone else, even though the slower drivers he's competing against may have reached their limit of grip already (they may even be spinning out..). For a given corner, Prost may be able to corner at 71mph, and an average racer maybe only 67mph. If we imagine that same corner on the public road, Prost would be safer at 45mph than a fellow racing driver at 45mph, because Prost's further from the limit that his car will reach in his expert hands. Now your average IAM driver without any track or car dynamics experience at all may be finding a limit on that same bend on a race track at more like 55-60mph. Ergo on the road at 45mph they'll be far less safe because they're closer to their limit. I appreciate that the IAM driver could just slow down, so instead of doing Prost's 45mph he could do 35mph, but then again Prost could slow down too, so we see that the racing driver will always have a higher limit purely because of the way he operates the car.

I think that the Roadcraft skills of observation, road positioning and planning etc are more important than car dynamics (the IAM ideal is that you never find the limit by getting yourself out of trouble first), however it's always the case that the further a driver is from the limit the safer they are. I do therefore believe that track technique is relevant. I use everything I've learnt from years of racing and technique analysis on the public road every day, just at a very low speed so I'm keeping the limit as far away all the time as I can.

[p1esk]

heebeegeetee said:

p1esk said:

I agree with the points already made, except that seeing the brake lights still on as a car turns into a bend doesn't (to my mind at least) disqualify somebody from being an advanced driver.

Alain Prost was known for braking up to the apex.

I much prefer to look for good drivers, rather than adopt the 'treat everyone as an idiot' mentality.

I agree very much with that last bit. Any of us can have a bad day and end up making a few mistakes and have others thinking we're idiots.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

RenesisEvo said:

Generally I'd have the hand-brake applied: if you get hit from behind it will be extremely difficult to keep any form of pressure on the brake pedal. I would also argue that not always will the impulse from the impact overcome the grip of the vehicle's tyres, thus turning the wheels is probably not the best idea.

If the impact doesn't overcome the grip of the tyres, then why worry about wheel direction? The handbrake will prevent you from moving in any direction.

Is there any benefit of increased vision to an advanced position where wheel deflection is necessary? I think in some junctions this is the case.

[Syndrome]

I was on the way into work on Monday, when I happened across a nasty looking accident which had only just happened because the people were still extracting heads from arses and getting out of mangled cars. I'm a trained first aider so I pulled up away from the carnage and went to see if anyone needed urgent help or if they wanted an ambulance. The guy who had caused the crash by piling his merc E class into the back of a C2 driven by a very shocked young lady, was banging on loudly about how it couldn't possibly be his fault because he was an advanced driver and had all the badges on his car to prove it. I had to laugh (quietly to myself)