Skids at High Speed
Discussion
So the other day, I can only describe myself as being a cock and going back to amateur driving. I entered the M56 from the M6 junction heading towards Manchester at a good pace on the long curve in the wet.
I felt I was going too fast and lifted off, at which point the car back-end started swinging the opposite way to the way I wanted. My first instinct was to brake, at which point as I was crossing the white lines the car went into a spin across the first and second carriageway. Then a bit of common sense kicked in, and I took feet of all pedals and gentle (ish) went to the opposite lock. The car stops turning and was facing forward on the slow lane of the motorway. This is the point I got the hell out of there and sit on the hard shoulder for a long long long time.
My partner and I have been talking for a while about advanced driving courses, and skid pan work. We have found one place that will do it with your own car, as it looks pointless to use someone else’s, it’s at car limits. I don’t know yet if they will allow us to interchange between both cars on the day, so we both get to understand each others car, but I am asking them at the moment.
Has anyone else done any of these courses, what are they like? I have seen plenty of posts about only doing 20mph on these skid pans, and really I am not sure that kind of training would have helped me out the other day. Your thoughts would be much appreciated?
Caroline
I felt I was going too fast and lifted off, at which point the car back-end started swinging the opposite way to the way I wanted. My first instinct was to brake, at which point as I was crossing the white lines the car went into a spin across the first and second carriageway. Then a bit of common sense kicked in, and I took feet of all pedals and gentle (ish) went to the opposite lock. The car stops turning and was facing forward on the slow lane of the motorway. This is the point I got the hell out of there and sit on the hard shoulder for a long long long time.
My partner and I have been talking for a while about advanced driving courses, and skid pan work. We have found one place that will do it with your own car, as it looks pointless to use someone else’s, it’s at car limits. I don’t know yet if they will allow us to interchange between both cars on the day, so we both get to understand each others car, but I am asking them at the moment.
Has anyone else done any of these courses, what are they like? I have seen plenty of posts about only doing 20mph on these skid pans, and really I am not sure that kind of training would have helped me out the other day. Your thoughts would be much appreciated?
Caroline
I think the key thing to ask is what was the point when things started to go wrong. It sounds like you recognised that you'd gone in to the curve too fast so being able to avoid that should avoid any need for taking evasive action. 
IAM/RoADAR may be able to help there...
But we're only human so what happens if we do get it wrong? Ultimately, the thing is not to panic (which is easy to say from behind a keyboard!) and in most cases, setting the steering to point to where you want to go and applying some power will sort things out. If you think about where the weight is acting on the car, lifting off/braking shifts the weight over the front wheels and accelerating shifts it over the back wheels.
Chris
IAM/RoADAR may be able to help there...But we're only human so what happens if we do get it wrong? Ultimately, the thing is not to panic (which is easy to say from behind a keyboard!) and in most cases, setting the steering to point to where you want to go and applying some power will sort things out. If you think about where the weight is acting on the car, lifting off/braking shifts the weight over the front wheels and accelerating shifts it over the back wheels.
caz_manc said:
We have found one place that will do it with your own car, as it looks pointless to use someone else’s, it’s at car limits.
Imho the focus should be on the driver's limits rather than the car's and being able to recognise the signs of running out of grip and corrective measures should be applicable to any car. I quite enjoyed http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/carcontrol.htm course at Bruntingthorpe and learnt a huge amount at "real world" speeds. Not cheap, but highly recommended Chris
Edited by ScoobyChris on Monday 7th September 21:09
I'll be honest the only way to educate you at the speeds I would imagine you were travelling at would be to go on a track day, this will teach you about the effects on the car when carrying high speed turning. I have completed a number of high speed sessions including V-max at bruntingthorpe and can tell you that the worst thing possible when beginning to lose the back end would be to brake, and in some circumstances coming off the gas quickly is equally as bad as the weight transfer makes the back end of the car go light.
However if your car is equipped with ABS / EBD and ESP then the circumstance becomes slightly more controllable when lifting off the accelerator or even pressing the brakes. Not sure about the make / model of the car you were driving but they are definately good safety systems to have for any driver, but especially if you know how they work, sometimes it's worth practising with these safety systems as the first time that you need to use them is also when you need to know how it feels when they are in action, it can sometimes feel incedibly strange but the system will react far quicker than you, and possibly could save your life(however they cannot defy the laws of physics), the biggest reported incidents to do with ABS /ESP brakes are reported faults with the vibrating pedal feel and loud noises from the dashboard when the systems are in use, this can be very discerning if you do not know its going to happen which is why Many people take their cars to the dealers complaining. But the strange noises are quite normal, theyv'e just never needed them or tested them prior to actually needing it.
So Book yourself a trackday for you and the Wife/missus and you'll have great fun as well as learning about driving safety and take your car to an abandend car park / airfield and if you have any of the safety systems fitted to your car try them out.
However if your car is equipped with ABS / EBD and ESP then the circumstance becomes slightly more controllable when lifting off the accelerator or even pressing the brakes. Not sure about the make / model of the car you were driving but they are definately good safety systems to have for any driver, but especially if you know how they work, sometimes it's worth practising with these safety systems as the first time that you need to use them is also when you need to know how it feels when they are in action, it can sometimes feel incedibly strange but the system will react far quicker than you, and possibly could save your life(however they cannot defy the laws of physics), the biggest reported incidents to do with ABS /ESP brakes are reported faults with the vibrating pedal feel and loud noises from the dashboard when the systems are in use, this can be very discerning if you do not know its going to happen which is why Many people take their cars to the dealers complaining. But the strange noises are quite normal, theyv'e just never needed them or tested them prior to actually needing it.
So Book yourself a trackday for you and the Wife/missus and you'll have great fun as well as learning about driving safety and take your car to an abandend car park / airfield and if you have any of the safety systems fitted to your car try them out.
Would that be coming off the M6 southbound by any chance?
Bit of a notorious sliproad that one - I've seen a car there, spun off and having taken out a lamppost. More recently, a chap at work spun off at the same point, managed to miss everything and just park up neatly on the hard shoulder (facing the wrong way).
Bit of a notorious sliproad that one - I've seen a car there, spun off and having taken out a lamppost. More recently, a chap at work spun off at the same point, managed to miss everything and just park up neatly on the hard shoulder (facing the wrong way).
caz_manc said:
This is the point I got the hell out of there and sit on the hard shoulder for a long long long time.
Something to file away in the back of your mind -- this is probably more dangerous than the spinning across the motorway. Don't sit on the hard shoulder unless you have absolutely no alternative.Go and see Hairy Don for a day.
Hi,
Neither of our cars have any driver aides Caroline's is a cappuccino and mine is an Elise. I guess iim of the opinion that my driving can all ways be better which is when I first heard about the car limits day. They are well regarded on SELOC and the fact that they seem to be aimed at improving you real world driving / handling of the situation when it goes wrong in the car that you will be in when it goes tits up just make sense to me. any you to now by the looks of things.
We have all made mistakes when diving in this situation you where lucky and got away with it as long as you learn and improve its a positive experience.
Its a shame I was not running the CCTV on the car at the time as i'm sure we could have learn a lot from that as it all goes very quickly when its happening.
Blake
Neither of our cars have any driver aides Caroline's is a cappuccino and mine is an Elise. I guess iim of the opinion that my driving can all ways be better which is when I first heard about the car limits day. They are well regarded on SELOC and the fact that they seem to be aimed at improving you real world driving / handling of the situation when it goes wrong in the car that you will be in when it goes tits up just make sense to me. any you to now by the looks of things.
We have all made mistakes when diving in this situation you where lucky and got away with it as long as you learn and improve its a positive experience.
Its a shame I was not running the CCTV on the car at the time as i'm sure we could have learn a lot from that as it all goes very quickly when its happening.
Blake
Edited by ceebmoj on Monday 7th September 23:08
abb1 said:
I have completed a number of high speed sessions including V-max at bruntingthorpe and can tell you that the worst thing possible when beginning to lose the back end would be to brake
It will depend how the brakes are set up, and you could certainly get it wrong by stamping on the brakes and setting up a large pitch overshoot, but in a rwd car properly set up braking is likely to be safer than just lifting off the throttle if you're teetering around the limit of grip. It seems wrong, because you're adding braking to the existing engine braking, but it reduces the difference between the front and rear and it's that difference which makes it go tail happy.GreenV8S said:
abb1 said:
I have completed a number of high speed sessions including V-max at bruntingthorpe and can tell you that the worst thing possible when beginning to lose the back end would be to brake
It will depend how the brakes are set up, and you could certainly get it wrong by stamping on the brakes and setting up a large pitch overshoot, but in a rwd car properly set up braking is likely to be safer than just lifting off the throttle if you're teetering around the limit of grip. It seems wrong, because you're adding braking to the existing engine braking, but it reduces the difference between the front and rear and it's that difference which makes it go tail happy.caz_manc said:
7db said:
Go and see Hairy Don for a day.
Who is Hairy Don? Have you got more details?Caroline
Vaux said:
"I quite enjoyed http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/carcontrol.htm course at Bruntingthorpe "
What did you like and dislike about the course?caz_manc said:
Vaux said:
"I quite enjoyed http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/carcontrol.htm course at Bruntingthorpe "
What did you like and dislike about the course?Although I have done his course. Nothing really to dislike. There's emergency lane change exercises, and a course to experiment with handling. The airfield is safe in that there is little if anything to hit (although the day I did it an Elise driver hit a cone and caused some damage to the bodywork).
I've done the Andy Walsh (CarLimits) day too. He has a DVD which sums it up. Andy shows you how to steer, how to corner, how to brake. Later you try and put this together going round a coned out course. Again the airfield is very safe environment.
Do them both!
Don's standard format is to coach 3 people on each day. I've been to see him a number of times and have always found that format gave me, if anything, slightly more input than I could cope with in one day. For me, 1 to 1 would be much too much.
Your mileage may vary. I'd suggest you ring him up and have a chat.
Your mileage may vary. I'd suggest you ring him up and have a chat.
I think the issue here is the management of expectations.
If it alludes to the fact that it is 1-2-1 but turns out not to be, is that likely to make the experience a positive one or a negative one?
Personally, I just like things to be crystal clear but that doesn't alway suit some people.
If it alludes to the fact that it is 1-2-1 but turns out not to be, is that likely to make the experience a positive one or a negative one?
Personally, I just like things to be crystal clear but that doesn't alway suit some people.
Vaux said:
Although I have done his course. Nothing really to dislike. There's emergency lane change exercises, and a course to experiment with handling. The airfield is safe in that there is little if anything to hit (although the day I did it an Elise driver hit a cone and caused some damage to the bodywork).
I've done the Andy Walsh (CarLimits) day too. He has a DVD which sums it up. Andy shows you how to steer, how to corner, how to brake. Later you try and put this together going round a coned out course. Again the airfield is very safe environment.
Do them both!
I can't see anywhere on Hairy Don's site where it says you can take your own car. Just checking to see if you can?I've done the Andy Walsh (CarLimits) day too. He has a DVD which sums it up. Andy shows you how to steer, how to corner, how to brake. Later you try and put this together going round a coned out course. Again the airfield is very safe environment.
Do them both!
Caroline
Caroline,
Yes, you can take your own car, and the vast majority of people do. Don sends out some good joining instructions giving very sound advice on preparing your car for the higher stresses it will undergo driving on the limit, and advice on how to minimise tyre wear. As far as management of expectations is concerned, give Don a call (or e-mail him via his website) and ask any questions you've got.
As others have said, it's not cheap, I paid GBP450 for the day, but I would say it's good value. As I alluded above, I think I got more out of it because there were breaks in my driving time while Don was coaching the other two participants. It gave me time to process some pretty intense experiences, concentrating hard on exactly what the car was doing (and what I was doing and feeling about that) at (or around) the limit of grip.
James
Yes, you can take your own car, and the vast majority of people do. Don sends out some good joining instructions giving very sound advice on preparing your car for the higher stresses it will undergo driving on the limit, and advice on how to minimise tyre wear. As far as management of expectations is concerned, give Don a call (or e-mail him via his website) and ask any questions you've got.
As others have said, it's not cheap, I paid GBP450 for the day, but I would say it's good value. As I alluded above, I think I got more out of it because there were breaks in my driving time while Don was coaching the other two participants. It gave me time to process some pretty intense experiences, concentrating hard on exactly what the car was doing (and what I was doing and feeling about that) at (or around) the limit of grip.
James
I'd recommend doing a Carlimits day - even if you do a 4 person day (so 4-1 student/instructor ratio) you get loads of one-on-one training, and I personally found having a few other people to watch/discuss techniques with/laugh at when they ended up facing the wrong way really added to the learning. You can swap between cars too.
Cheaper alternative is an activity day with Carlimits - lots more cars and not much instruction, but only 40 quid ish and you get a really good feel for your car as it approaches and exceeds its/your limits.
Cheaper alternative is an activity day with Carlimits - lots more cars and not much instruction, but only 40 quid ish and you get a really good feel for your car as it approaches and exceeds its/your limits.
caz_manc said:
greygoose said:
The CarLimits course teaches this well in the high speed cornering bit.
What did you like and dislike about the course?I'd never done a course like that and the explanations were good for those of us without too much knowledge of physics etc, I'd recommend it for a fun and useful day.
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