Overtaking scare
Discussion
I was driving home last night when i ended up in a situation that had the potential to develop into something quite nasty.
time was around 10:00 at night I was driving along the road pictured (i know it well including all jucntions etc) in a high performance car. I was driving behind a blue vw van travelling at 40 - 45 mph in a national speed limit. At the time i was also being followed by a bmw 1 series. After coming off the roundabout i knew the next straight would offer a safe place to overtake.
I tried to get a view past the van on the inside of the corner but there are big bushy hedges right next to the road on both sides so i didn't really get a view. so as we entered the straight i moved into the right hand lane (without increasing speed). to get a better view.
as soon as I moved out the van began an emergency stop and i instantly saw a broken down car on out side of the road about 60m beyond the corner. I braked hard and slotted in behind the van.
This could have gone wrong in a number of ways.
the van could have outbraked me and left me in the offside lane.
The bmw oculd have been distracted by my moving out and either
a) attempted to follow me and run into me as i attempted to stop
b) not left space between itsself and the van for me to return.
Any suggestions?
time was around 10:00 at night I was driving along the road pictured (i know it well including all jucntions etc) in a high performance car. I was driving behind a blue vw van travelling at 40 - 45 mph in a national speed limit. At the time i was also being followed by a bmw 1 series. After coming off the roundabout i knew the next straight would offer a safe place to overtake.
I tried to get a view past the van on the inside of the corner but there are big bushy hedges right next to the road on both sides so i didn't really get a view. so as we entered the straight i moved into the right hand lane (without increasing speed). to get a better view.
as soon as I moved out the van began an emergency stop and i instantly saw a broken down car on out side of the road about 60m beyond the corner. I braked hard and slotted in behind the van.
This could have gone wrong in a number of ways.
the van could have outbraked me and left me in the offside lane.
The bmw oculd have been distracted by my moving out and either
a) attempted to follow me and run into me as i attempted to stop
b) not left space between itsself and the van for me to return.
Any suggestions?
if you were in a high performance car i cant see how the van could have outbraked you?
I think the answers you will get is that you should hold back from trucks and vans, using distance to get a clearer view, rather than sitting on his rear bumper and needing to pull onto the wrong side of the road.
I think the answers you will get is that you should hold back from trucks and vans, using distance to get a clearer view, rather than sitting on his rear bumper and needing to pull onto the wrong side of the road.
Well done for posting up and asking the question.
My thought is that it starts here:-
I'm not sure where the BMW came from -- I assume it's a following vehicle which was also looking to pass.
The general advice is to take the view without committing -- typically, I describe this as being so that you can stop behind the vehicle in front if it executes an emergency stop. Rather brilliantly this is what happened and you did do this successfully, and it sounds like it was unpleasant but ultimately successful. Well done.
If you wanted this to be more pleasant then a greater distance behind the van when you moved out for the view would have afforded this. Obviously this would make it harder to pass -- if you can't get the view from your chosen following distance to pass then you can't pass. The decision not to overtake is never wrong.
Following vehicles can make overtakes much more complicated. You need to observe them (as well as the lead) for their likely behaviour when you pull out. If there's any doubt then you can take half a view (gearbox on the whiteline) so that they can't take your nearside safety space.
If this half view isn't enough to make the overtake then you can't make the overtake, and that's a great decision in that circumstance. If either the following or lead vehicle wants to badly misbehave, then it is often impossible to make a safe pass, and you shouldn't.
My thought is that it starts here:-
ctallchris said:
After coming off the roundabout i knew the next straight would offer a safe place to overtake.
You didn't know that. You only know what you can see. You believed that it might be worth being in a position to take a look and see if it was safe to overtake. Your belief that you would be passing led you into a position that was a more committed than (it turned out) you wanted to be.I'm not sure where the BMW came from -- I assume it's a following vehicle which was also looking to pass.
The general advice is to take the view without committing -- typically, I describe this as being so that you can stop behind the vehicle in front if it executes an emergency stop. Rather brilliantly this is what happened and you did do this successfully, and it sounds like it was unpleasant but ultimately successful. Well done.
If you wanted this to be more pleasant then a greater distance behind the van when you moved out for the view would have afforded this. Obviously this would make it harder to pass -- if you can't get the view from your chosen following distance to pass then you can't pass. The decision not to overtake is never wrong.
Following vehicles can make overtakes much more complicated. You need to observe them (as well as the lead) for their likely behaviour when you pull out. If there's any doubt then you can take half a view (gearbox on the whiteline) so that they can't take your nearside safety space.
If this half view isn't enough to make the overtake then you can't make the overtake, and that's a great decision in that circumstance. If either the following or lead vehicle wants to badly misbehave, then it is often impossible to make a safe pass, and you shouldn't.
Edited by 7db on Monday 24th August 10:02
7db said:
If this half view isn't enough to make the overtake then you can't make the overtake, and that's a great decision in that circumstance. If either the following or lead vehicle wants to badly misbehave, then it is often impossible to make a safe pass, and you shouldn't.
As they say, "The decision not to overtake will never be wrong."7db said:
Well done for posting up and asking the question.
My thought is that it starts here:-
I'm not sure where the BMW came from -- I assume it's a following vehicle which was also looking to pass.
The general advice is to take the view without committing -- typically, I describe this as being so that you can stop behind the vehicle in front if it executes an emergency stop. Rather brilliantly this is what happened and you did do this successfully, and it sounds like it was unpleasant but ultimately successful. Well done.
If you wanted this to be more pleasant then a greater distance behind the van when you moved out for the view would have afforded this. Obviously this would make it harder to pass -- if you can't get the view from your chosen following distance to pass then you can't pass. The decision not to overtake is never wrong.
Following vehicles can make overtakes much more complicated. You need to observe them (as well as the lead) for their likely behaviour when you pull out. If there's any doubt then you can take half a view (gearbox on the whiteline) so that they can't take your nearside safety space.
If this half view isn't enough to make the overtake then you can't make the overtake, and that's a great decision in that circumstance. If either the following or lead vehicle wants to badly misbehave, then it is often impossible to make a safe pass, and you shouldn't.
Firstly bad wording on my part. Yes the straight had the potential to become a safe overtaking oppertunity. The van outbraked me as I initially thought he was braking to let me pass and as he was doing an emergencystop from 45 his speed dropped quickly my reactions may be quick but half a second on the brakes is a lot to make up.My thought is that it starts here:-
ctallchris said:
After coming off the roundabout i knew the next straight would offer a safe place to overtake.
You didn't know that. You only know what you can see. You believed that it might be worth being in a position to take a look and see if it was safe to overtake. Your belief that you would be passing led you into a position that was a more committed than (it turned out) you wanted to be.I'm not sure where the BMW came from -- I assume it's a following vehicle which was also looking to pass.
The general advice is to take the view without committing -- typically, I describe this as being so that you can stop behind the vehicle in front if it executes an emergency stop. Rather brilliantly this is what happened and you did do this successfully, and it sounds like it was unpleasant but ultimately successful. Well done.
If you wanted this to be more pleasant then a greater distance behind the van when you moved out for the view would have afforded this. Obviously this would make it harder to pass -- if you can't get the view from your chosen following distance to pass then you can't pass. The decision not to overtake is never wrong.
Following vehicles can make overtakes much more complicated. You need to observe them (as well as the lead) for their likely behaviour when you pull out. If there's any doubt then you can take half a view (gearbox on the whiteline) so that they can't take your nearside safety space.
If this half view isn't enough to make the overtake then you can't make the overtake, and that's a great decision in that circumstance. If either the following or lead vehicle wants to badly misbehave, then it is often impossible to make a safe pass, and you shouldn't.
Edited by 7db on Monday 24th August 10:02
The bmw was a following vehicle in a queue who may have decided to overtake.
Thanks for the advice I shall be leaving a bit more space between myself and the van next time.
I think this one can probably have the marker - expect the unexpected.
I read the OP a bit more closely.
There's nearly always a partial view up the nearside of the target vehicle in a left-hander, despite the bushes (unless he is scraping through them) but you do need to hold a great following position (getting both L/R position and following distance spot on) through not just the entry but also middle and early exit of the left-hand bend. Right-handers are considerably simpler.
In any case that view may have been available to you up the left on the straight before going to the right for the look at the start of the straight (so I guess the question is: would the view have been better holding off the offside move for longer, given that you hadn't had the confirmation up the nearside already before the move).
From the fact that despite the van's headstart you were able to stop behind him, it doesn't sound like your following distance was unsafely close, although you do sound like you might feel uncomfortable about it.
With large slower vehicles the temptation is there to carry closing speed so you can get past them, whilst - particularly in left-handers - the vision is almost always better sitting properly back and matching rather than catching.
Of course I wasn't there, and it's possible that - as my friend Flemke noted - it just wasn't on and that's never the wrong choice. Only you can know that!
There's nearly always a partial view up the nearside of the target vehicle in a left-hander, despite the bushes (unless he is scraping through them) but you do need to hold a great following position (getting both L/R position and following distance spot on) through not just the entry but also middle and early exit of the left-hand bend. Right-handers are considerably simpler.
In any case that view may have been available to you up the left on the straight before going to the right for the look at the start of the straight (so I guess the question is: would the view have been better holding off the offside move for longer, given that you hadn't had the confirmation up the nearside already before the move).
From the fact that despite the van's headstart you were able to stop behind him, it doesn't sound like your following distance was unsafely close, although you do sound like you might feel uncomfortable about it.
With large slower vehicles the temptation is there to carry closing speed so you can get past them, whilst - particularly in left-handers - the vision is almost always better sitting properly back and matching rather than catching.
Of course I wasn't there, and it's possible that - as my friend Flemke noted - it just wasn't on and that's never the wrong choice. Only you can know that!
ctallchris said:
Firstly bad wording on my part. Yes the straight had the potential to become a safe overtaking oppertunity. The van outbraked me as I initially thought he was braking to let me pass and as he was doing an emergencystop from 45 his speed dropped quickly my reactions may be quick but half a second on the brakes is a lot to make up.
Something similar happened to me once when the car I was about to overtake braked hard for a wild animal. As with your incident, it was slightly alarming but ultimately safe. I wouldn't worry excessively about it - these are the kind of contingencies you are allowing for when keeping a safe distance etc.All I would say is that, for me, if I see brake lights unexpectedly, early in an overtake, it's an immediate abort until I'm sure of the reason. The assumption has to be that the other driver may have seen something you haven't - as was the case for you.
Broken down cars are always a risk, especially without hazard lights flashing. I got scarily close to one before my headlights picked it out and that was just driving along, so I can understand why the van was quite late in braking and pulling out. Overtaking is inherently riskier than following along behind, but the fact that you got back onto your side of the road safely says a lot.
7db said:
Of course I wasn't there, and it's possible that - as my friend Flemke noted - it just wasn't on and that's never the wrong choice. Only you can know that!
I shall bore you with my two closest calls whilst overtaking.- Before I had taken any advanced instruction and was still a complete idiot (as opposed to partial, now), I was in a pretty fast car on a normal, one-lane-per-side SC. I was behind a car doing probably 50 and was hoping to get past, but nothing crazy. There was another guy behind me who had caught us up, so he presumably wanted to overtake as well.
We come over the brow of blind crest, the road ahead is straight, goes down into a big dip and up again to another blind crest. Crest-to-crest distance maybe 400m. Oncoming lane completely clear.
I pull out to overtake, am almost level with rear bumper of lead car without a dramatic speed differential, then oncoming car appears from crest ahead. My first thought is that I can complete overtake without a fuss.
In the next 1-2 seconds, I realise that car I want to overtake has picked up speed, probably related to the descent. Then I realise the oncoming car is actually going pretty quickly, well more than 60. Also, in these days I had not appreciated that sometimes you can solve a problem safely by putting your foot down hard, if you know what you're doing.
Now I back off throttle some and look to pull back into previous following position. What I see - you guessed it - is car that had been following me now too close to lead car to enable me to tuck in safely.
Situation not good.
I then saw that verge of road to my right went directly from asphalt to gravel to flat grass field, with no kerb, ditch, or other obstruction. I braked as hard as I could in the offside lane and pulled onto opposite grass verge before oncoming car needed to do anything drastic. Felt like a complete moron, obviously, but at least no harm to anyone. My car was fine.
Morals of story - everybody goes faster downhill, on your own side and oncoming, and you must allow for that. If car behind is looking to overtake, as you yourself are, either let him through first or control the space by hanging back more and then making overtake with more alacrity.
- Was on narrowish B-road with hedges/banking on both sides. Approaching gradual left bend a good 200m ahead. Following car doing maybe 45. Looking for overtake.
Pull out for look, it's clear, start to accelerate. I'm about even with rear bumper when coming around the left bend ahead, towards me, is a motorbike that is effectively on the centre line, travelling at maybe 80. Overtake now unthinkable.
Have to brake hard whilst still in offside lane. There are some loose pebbles along the verge, so effectively it's split-surface braking with no ABS, which makes things interesting.
Car I'm overtaking naturally brakes also, making it more difficult for me to have a space to pull back into, but the three of us are able to sort it out.
Morals of the story - although one is normally expecting and looking for full-sized vehicles, which take up the entire width of a narrow lane, a motorbike near the centre line can shorten the effective limit point of vision by a lot of metres. If that bike is also going quite quickly, as they often do, one's time and space for reacting and coping will be considerably reduced. Don't presume that everybody else will be at or under the speed limit. Also, pay more attention to road surface. Potholes are easy to spot; pebbles and sand less so.
Unfortunately, the lessons that we never forget are usually derived from near-misses that, in only slightly different circumstances, sometimes will have ended catastrophically. Driving isn't something that we should be "practising" on the public roads, although there's no other way to learn and improve.
Overtaking is the most dangerous part of driving, for a number of reasons. Having said that, I'm not sure that the authorities, by doing so much to discourage overtaking, are reducing overall risk, because they are reducing overall competence.
Like you Flemke, I've had some scares in the past, Firstly, driving down a road I know VERY well late one night, the car in front is doing around 45, I think I'm on a long straight, move out and have a look, all seems well so I give it some beans and I actually find myself hurtling into a blind bend still mid overtake, to make things worse a pair of headlights are closing me down very quickly, que me jumping on the brakes and nipping behind the car I was trying to pass. The rest of the drive home was very sedate. I now think very carefully about overtaking, specially at night.
Flanders. said:
Like you Flemke, I've had some scares in the past, Firstly, driving down a road I know VERY well late one night, the car in front is doing around 45, I think I'm on a long straight, move out and have a look, all seems well so I give it some beans and I actually find myself hurtling into a blind bend still mid overtake, to make things worse a pair of headlights are closing me down very quickly, que me jumping on the brakes and nipping behind the car I was trying to pass. The rest of the drive home was very sedate. I now think very carefully about overtaking, specially at night.
One additional thing I became very aware of the other day at night i realised i mostly look for headlights I took a look around a car back in june(ish) looked way ahead to the vanishing point completely clear all the way then tracked back along the road for hazzards and there was a pushbike about halfway down the road. As i was looking for a much brighter light i completely missed it on the first pass. I hadn't accelerated from my position so just moved back in and left if for a clear streach.In a situation if i were the car someone is looking to overtake on a country road would it be acceptable to position yourself to actively block an enthusiastic manover when there are vunerable road users around?
ctallchris said:
Flanders. said:
Like you Flemke, I've had some scares in the past, Firstly, driving down a road I know VERY well late one night, the car in front is doing around 45, I think I'm on a long straight, move out and have a look, all seems well so I give it some beans and I actually find myself hurtling into a blind bend still mid overtake, to make things worse a pair of headlights are closing me down very quickly, que me jumping on the brakes and nipping behind the car I was trying to pass. The rest of the drive home was very sedate. I now think very carefully about overtaking, specially at night.
One additional thing I became very aware of the other day at night i realised i mostly look for headlights I took a look around a car back in june(ish) looked way ahead to the vanishing point completely clear all the way then tracked back along the road for hazzards and there was a pushbike about halfway down the road. As i was looking for a much brighter light i completely missed it on the first pass. I hadn't accelerated from my position so just moved back in and left if for a clear streach.In a situation if i were the car someone is looking to overtake on a country road would it be acceptable to position yourself to actively block an enthusiastic manover when there are vunerable road users around?
On the one hand, the headlights evidence of another vehicle's presence is helpful, but the way they can dazzle, often quite unexpectedly, and their visual and cognitive distractiveness vastly outweigh their evidential value, IMO.
ctallchris said:
Flanders. said:
Like you Flemke, I've had some scares in the past, Firstly, driving down a road I know VERY well late one night, the car in front is doing around 45, I think I'm on a long straight, move out and have a look, all seems well so I give it some beans and I actually find myself hurtling into a blind bend still mid overtake, to make things worse a pair of headlights are closing me down very quickly, que me jumping on the brakes and nipping behind the car I was trying to pass. The rest of the drive home was very sedate. I now think very carefully about overtaking, specially at night.
One additional thing I became very aware of the other day at night i realised i mostly look for headlights I took a look around a car back in june(ish) looked way ahead to the vanishing point completely clear all the way then tracked back along the road for hazzards and there was a pushbike about halfway down the road. As i was looking for a much brighter light i completely missed it on the first pass. I hadn't accelerated from my position so just moved back in and left if for a clear streach.In a situation if i were the car someone is looking to overtake on a country road would it be acceptable to position yourself to actively block an enthusiastic manover when there are vunerable road users around?
ctallchris said:
In a situation if i were the car someone is looking to overtake on a country road would it be acceptable to position yourself to actively block an enthusiastic manover when there are vunerable road users around?
Why allow him to say that he was so distracted by avoiding your dangerous driving that he mowed into the cyclist?Make space for the other guy to recover his screw-up
To be honest I don't really care about where the blame would lie as long as the poor sod on the bike doesn't have someone careering into them at 60 but i doo see your point. probably a bout of the hazzards even if some people (refering to one motorbike in particular) seem to think this is an indication to overtake rather than a warning of a hazzard
Absent the question of blame, I think you want to wonder whether you want to do anything that might take his attention leftwards towards you (hazards, horn) rather than allowing it to project forwards and settle on the bike.
It seems that your most responsible course if giving him as much room as possible when he finally sees the bike.
It seems that your most responsible course if giving him as much room as possible when he finally sees the bike.
flemke said:
7db said:
Of course I wasn't there, and it's possible that - as my friend Flemke noted - it just wasn't on and that's never the wrong choice. Only you can know that!
I shall bore you with my two closest calls whilst overtaking.- Before I had taken any advanced instruction and was still a complete idiot (as opposed to partial, now), I was in a pretty fast car on a normal, one-lane-per-side SC. I was behind a car doing probably 50 and was hoping to get past, but nothing crazy. There was another guy behind me who had caught us up, so he presumably wanted to overtake as well.
We come over the brow of blind crest, the road ahead is straight, goes down into a big dip and up again to another blind crest. Crest-to-crest distance maybe 400m. Oncoming lane completely clear.
I pull out to overtake, am almost level with rear bumper of lead car without a dramatic speed differential, then oncoming car appears from crest ahead. My first thought is that I can complete overtake without a fuss.
In the next 1-2 seconds, I realise that car I want to overtake has picked up speed, probably related to the descent. Then I realise the oncoming car is actually going pretty quickly, well more than 60. Also, in these days I had not appreciated that sometimes you can solve a problem safely by putting your foot down hard, if you know what you're doing.
Now I back off throttle some and look to pull back into previous following position. What I see - you guessed it - is car that had been following me now too close to lead car to enable me to tuck in safely.
Situation not good.
I then saw that verge of road to my right went directly from asphalt to gravel to flat grass field, with no kerb, ditch, or other obstruction. I braked as hard as I could in the offside lane and pulled onto opposite grass verge before oncoming car needed to do anything drastic. Felt like a complete moron, obviously, but at least no harm to anyone. My car was fine.
Morals of story - everybody goes faster downhill, on your own side and oncoming, and you must allow for that. If car behind is looking to overtake, as you yourself are, either let him through first or control the space by hanging back more and then making overtake with more alacrity.
I travel a route quite often which is a single lane carriageway NSL and has a steep enough(10% perhaps)descent, straight at first and swooping right curve towards the end with lots of armco around it. The lanes are generously wide. Travelling down I usually find myself behind a car sitting on the brakes travelling at around 30mph however without anyone ahead of me I know that I'd be doing 55-60. I've been tempted to give it a go but just can't make myself do it, a little voice telling me that it's *just not right*. I don't know what the fear is, perhaps the feeling of increased weight as gravity does it thing, the fear of not being able to lose momentum...just can't pinpoint it. Maybe I need a super-light car? Thinking about it right now, I can't recall any appreciably downhill single lane carriageway where I have ever overtaken
flemke said:
7db said:
Of course I wasn't there, and it's possible that - as my friend Flemke noted - it just wasn't on and that's never the wrong choice. Only you can know that!
I shall bore you with my two closest calls whilst overtaking.- Before I had taken any advanced instruction and was still a complete idiot (as opposed to partial, now), I was in a pretty fast car on a normal, one-lane-per-side SC. I was behind a car doing probably 50 and was hoping to get past, but nothing crazy. There was another guy behind me who had caught us up, so he presumably wanted to overtake as well.
We come over the brow of blind crest, the road ahead is straight, goes down into a big dip and up again to another blind crest. Crest-to-crest distance maybe 400m. Oncoming lane completely clear.
I pull out to overtake, am almost level with rear bumper of lead car without a dramatic speed differential, then oncoming car appears from crest ahead. My first thought is that I can complete overtake without a fuss.
In the next 1-2 seconds, I realise that car I want to overtake has picked up speed, probably related to the descent. Then I realise the oncoming car is actually going pretty quickly, well more than 60. Also, in these days I had not appreciated that sometimes you can solve a problem safely by putting your foot down hard, if you know what you're doing.
Now I back off throttle some and look to pull back into previous following position. What I see - you guessed it - is car that had been following me now too close to lead car to enable me to tuck in safely.
Situation not good.
I then saw that verge of road to my right went directly from asphalt to gravel to flat grass field, with no kerb, ditch, or other obstruction. I braked as hard as I could in the offside lane and pulled onto opposite grass verge before oncoming car needed to do anything drastic. Felt like a complete moron, obviously, but at least no harm to anyone. My car was fine.
Morals of story - everybody goes faster downhill, on your own side and oncoming, and you must allow for that. If car behind is looking to overtake, as you yourself are, either let him through first or control the space by hanging back more and then making overtake with more alacrity.
Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 2nd September 14:06
ctallchris said:
In a situation if i were the car someone is looking to overtake on a country road would it be acceptable to position yourself to actively block an enthusiastic manover when there are vunerable road users around?
Was once saved from my poor observation by a first class truck driver. He saw the young man in the sports car shaping up for an overtake and moved over the centre of the road blocking him.While said young man was cursing and blinding, an Elise appeared from a dip 500m down the road that I just simply had not seen.....
Truck driver had seen it, watched me moving out in preparation for the overtake and realised that I was unaware of the mess I was about to create. So took appropriate action.
He blipped his left signal a couple of miles later and I slotted past with a suitable amount of deference.
Taught me several things.
1) Look for dips. In twilight on a road you don't know they're easy to miss
2) That moving into the oncoming lane and taking position *before* accelerating has an additional benefit. It signals what you're about to do, and just occasionally someone might know something you don't....
Mr E said:
ctallchris said:
In a situation if i were the car someone is looking to overtake on a country road would it be acceptable to position yourself to actively block an enthusiastic manover when there are vunerable road users around?
Was once saved from my poor observation by a first class truck driver. He saw the young man in the sports car shaping up for an overtake and moved over the centre of the road blocking him.While said young man was cursing and blinding, an Elise appeared from a dip 500m down the road that I just simply had not seen.....
Truck driver had seen it, watched me moving out in preparation for the overtake and realised that I was unaware of the mess I was about to create. So took appropriate action.
He blipped his left signal a couple of miles later and I slotted past with a suitable amount of deference.
Taught me several things.
1) Look for dips. In twilight on a road you don't know they're easy to miss
2) That moving into the oncoming lane and taking position *before* accelerating has an additional benefit. It signals what you're about to do, and just occasionally someone might know something you don't....
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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