Is it just my imagination...
Discussion
Until very recently I've only ever used heel toe during a downshift in a race spec car with a non synchro box on a track as I've never been able to see the advantage of using it in a normal car with a synchro box on the road. As an experiment I've been using the technique in my road car during spirited drives on NSL roads. Is it my imagination or is the gearchange actualy more compliant when you employ the heel toe technique in a normal car with a normal gearbox? It's a genuine question I'm just interested in peoples experiences / opinions.
Pigeon said:
Sure it is, the less work the synchro has to do the easier it goes in. I've driven plenty of bangers with a knackered synchro on second where it makes the world of difference to DDC into second (I am wondering if you are confusing DDC and H&T).
I use both DDC and H&T, I was specificaly talking about downshifting whilst braking and flicking the gas pedal with the side of the foot which is on the brake. H&T seems to "tidy up" the process and makes it feel better.Just to keep the topic going...
The DDC part *can* help the synchros and make the selection of the gear easier even with normally functioning synchros (ie not knacked ones).
If you are not DDC'ing and just raising the revs under H&T, that can also make the gear selection easier as the clutch drag pass through some of the raised revs as it were!
Bert
The DDC part *can* help the synchros and make the selection of the gear easier even with normally functioning synchros (ie not knacked ones).
If you are not DDC'ing and just raising the revs under H&T, that can also make the gear selection easier as the clutch drag pass through some of the raised revs as it were!
Bert
I am usually a rev match, DDC man to keep things smooth and mechanically friendly as I find that there is usually little to be gained from the use of H & T in normal day to day driving especially when following Roadcraft. But that is not to say that it does not have its uses. One advanced technique is called a 'Roll off'. It is intended for very occasional use to get off, say, a fast main road to a lane or entrance quickly when traffic is perhaps bearing down on you apace. Whilst it breaks the normal rules of Roadcraft it is arguebly safer than causing following traffic to brake hard whilst you go through the normal systematic approach. - Brake get the speed off later than usual, turn, (roll off) then pick up the correct gear/speed. In otherwords minimise disruption to the progress of other traffic and sort everything out once clear of any lurking danger behind you. It is effective and easy to teach. However, if you are really good, H & T enables you to perform the same late braking and a rev matched overlap a gear change. Thus correct gear for speed/manourve is achieved. As you say It follows that H & T also has a place for dealing with a very sharp bend on a spirited drive and is certainly very useful if needing to get down a cog whilst braking and decending a steep hill.
H & T ability is certainly not an essential skill (nor is it possible in many modern cars due to pedal positions) to achieve spirited but safe driving. However, if you can do it, used appropriately it certainly has a place in some road driving conditions and is off course faster than the standard Roadcraft system - not that the purist will necessarily agree or approve !
H & T ability is certainly not an essential skill (nor is it possible in many modern cars due to pedal positions) to achieve spirited but safe driving. However, if you can do it, used appropriately it certainly has a place in some road driving conditions and is off course faster than the standard Roadcraft system - not that the purist will necessarily agree or approve !
Edited by Jules2477 on Tuesday 21st July 06:43
I taught myself to double-declutch a few years ago, although I don't do it as a rule.
Whilst motorbiking I always 'blip' on the downshift and I've done it for a long time in the car when not braking -I've only recently attempted to learn heel-toe and I'm getting the hang of it.
My view is that, yes, h-t does smooth the gear change, but in my case I think I'm also braking more before making a downshift, hence 'rev matching' more closely than before which helps.
Having been taught to block-shift when learning and by an IAM instructor, I've now found that going down-through-the-gears whilst heel-toeing is smoother and more satisfying, if not actually any better
.
Whilst motorbiking I always 'blip' on the downshift and I've done it for a long time in the car when not braking -I've only recently attempted to learn heel-toe and I'm getting the hang of it.
My view is that, yes, h-t does smooth the gear change, but in my case I think I'm also braking more before making a downshift, hence 'rev matching' more closely than before which helps.
Having been taught to block-shift when learning and by an IAM instructor, I've now found that going down-through-the-gears whilst heel-toeing is smoother and more satisfying, if not actually any better
.MC Bodge said:
I taught myself to double-declutch a few years ago, although I don't do it as a rule.
Whilst motorbiking I always 'blip' on the downshift and I've done it for a long time in the car when not braking -I've only recently attempted to learn heel-toe and I'm getting the hang of it.
My view is that, yes, h-t does smooth the gear change, but in my case I think I'm also braking more before making a downshift, hence 'rev matching' more closely than before which helps.
Having been taught to block-shift when learning and by an IAM instructor, I've now found that going down-through-the-gears whilst heel-toeing is smoother and more satisfying, if not actually any better.
It would be helpful if those who successfully use heel and toe said in which car make and model.Whilst motorbiking I always 'blip' on the downshift and I've done it for a long time in the car when not braking -I've only recently attempted to learn heel-toe and I'm getting the hang of it.
My view is that, yes, h-t does smooth the gear change, but in my case I think I'm also braking more before making a downshift, hence 'rev matching' more closely than before which helps.
Having been taught to block-shift when learning and by an IAM instructor, I've now found that going down-through-the-gears whilst heel-toeing is smoother and more satisfying, if not actually any better
.Some of us are trying to understand the motives of those who decide the operating perameters of the "brains" installed in some of the cars we drive.
I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm going to keep my car with a cable operated throttle forever.
'98 Ford Fiesta. Slightly graunchy 2nd gear so it does help a bit. Also handy to keep the clutch wear down as I have to shift a lot to keep it on the boil (rubbish engine)
Although that said I also do it in my mum's 2007 Corsa CDTi, and in every minibus I drive because it makes everything smoother for the people in the back.
Although that said I also do it in my mum's 2007 Corsa CDTi, and in every minibus I drive because it makes everything smoother for the people in the back.
Edited by davepoth on Sunday 6th September 20:55
Yes, of course. A synchro box only helps the gears engage, it won't remove the lurch and all the unwanted clutch and tyre forces associated with the lurch. Anyone who says rev matching isn't necessary with synchro is simply mis-informed. I've rev matched every down change I've done on track and road since I was 17. Also, it's worth noting that I've never had a clutch replaced on a car, be it a road car or racing car...
WhoseGeneration said:
It would be helpful if those who successfully use heel and toe said in which car make and model....
Mk1 MX-5 - Cable Throttle, very satisfyingCitroen Grand C4 - Drive-By-Wire Laggy Pain in the arse, but works well when you get the hang of it - pedals seem slightly better spaced for H&T with my huge feet than they are in the Mazda - an accident on Citroens part, I'm sure
WhoseGeneration said:
It would be helpful if those who successfully use heel and toe said in which car make and model....
Any BMW 3 series is perfectly set up, although as with most cars servo assistance gets greater and greater as models get newer.Lotus Elise S2. The brake pedal sinks very low so under heavy braking in a non servo car or any braking at all in a servo car it's impossible. Changing brake pads and fitting braided hoses improves it a lot in a non servo car, but servo cars remain a problem until the DBW throttle came in lowering the accelerator pedal (which was generally a good thing, because the pedals were always too close in an Elise anyway.
Caterham - fully adjustable pedals so can be made perfect.
Most modern cars are sadly rubbish for heel and toeing due to the "knees up" driving position and over-sensitive brakes.
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