What did I do wrong?

[havoc]

Yesterday evening, rural X-roads (major B meets minor B).

I approached from the minor road, wanting to turn left onto major road. Car opposite was at the junction, positioned apparently to go straight-on, not indicating. I look right, see it's clear, leave it in second @ ~10mph, release the brake, look forwards...and then JAM the brakes on as dopey cow across from me turns right (so straight into my path).

Now I know from an insurance point of view it'd have been a 50:50. But what I'd like to know is:-
- what did I do wrong (other than mis-read her road position / assume she was going to do what she was indicating (or not in this case)?
- what could I do differently next time (other than come to a stop and wait for the person opposite to make up their mind, or at the very least catch their eye before proceeding)?

Thanks all,

Martin.

[vonhosen]

With them there (signal or not) I personally would have stopped & taken 1st.

[thiscocks]

yeah, id always err on the side of caution as you just don't know what people are going to do. Even if they are indicating one direction I dont take it for granted they will actually go that way!

[WhoseGeneration]

havoc said:

Yesterday evening, rural X-roads (major B meets minor B).

I approached from the minor road, wanting to turn left onto major road. Car opposite was at the junction, positioned apparently to go straight-on, not indicating. I look right, see it's clear, leave it in second @ ~10mph, release the brake, look forwards...and then JAM the brakes on as dopey cow across from me turns right (so straight into my path).

Now I know from an insurance point of view it'd have been a 50:50. But what I'd like to know is:-
- what did I do wrong (other than mis-read her road position / assume she was going to do what she was indicating (or not in this case)?
- what could I do differently next time (other than come to a stop and wait for the person opposite to make up their mind, or at the very least catch their eye before proceeding)?




Thanks all,

Martin.

Were you in foreign parts?
Remember, locals may be on "autopilot".
I assume you were indicating left.
Observe the direction of the front wheels and the driver's eyes.
Btw, you only looked right.
Maybe missing hazards approaching from the left.
Many will execute an overtake ignoring approaching junctions.

[7db]

Since a right-turner usually travels further than a left-turner, presumably she was in the major road before you.

I suppose what you could have done differently was check that the road you were entering was clear before committing.

She got there first. It's her road. You decided it was clear too early. Move your decision point later.

[havoc]

WG - fair points. Did look at wheels, but not at eyes - remember her moving her head, that's about it there...but observation would be the same for straight as for right.

Re: hazards from left - fair point.


Von / Tim - yeah, defensive driving says you're correct...difficult to argue against that one...I'll try and remember this event/mistake.


7db - I did check...my mistake was in only checking the directions from which a 'well-behaved' threat would come, IYSWIM.

As for "she got there first" - - must be hard being perfect like you. We're talking fractions of seconds here - from looking right and releasing brake to looking ahead and seeing her car heading for the same space as mine! Any tips on how I can be superhuman like you?!?

Edited by havoc on Friday 26th June 07:49

[7db]

havoc said:

my mistake was in only checking the directions from which a 'well-behaved' threat would come, IYSWIM.

Then my advice would be to check where badly behaved threats can come from unless you want to be hit by them. Everyone's out to get you.

[havoc]

7db said:

Everyone's out to get you.

Fair point. There are days it does seem like that...particularly on roundabouts, which I now treat as an opportunity to die if I don't keep my eyes open...

[micky g]

Wrt threats from the left, it could be many things that force traffic onto the right hand lane on the major road. Parked cars, break downs, someone that's pulled up to answer their phone or a tractor that's letting traffic through. I've seen so many near misses because drivers only check right when joining the major road.

It's essential to check both ways.

[Starfighter]

Check the road (both directions) and assuming this is clear then your only threat is the other vehicle. I'd be watching her like a hawk.

[Mr Green]

After 3 contributions from you you haven't said that you were signaling left, maybe you weren't, maybe you can't remember but will say you were anyway. To the casual observer it now looks like she thought the same as you, that you, possibly not indicating intended to go straight across, Thats why insurance companies do knock for knock. Sometimes we indicate then stop at a junction knowing we indicated but with a slight twitch of the wheel the indicator self cancels (well not really because we are responsable for it cancelling). st happens, if you blame everybody else everytime you'll never learn.

[Strangely Brown]

vonhosen said:

With them there (signal or not) I personally would have stopped & taken 1st.

In those situations, I always make damned sure that I know what the other person is doing first.

[7mike]

7db said:

She got there first. It's her road.

Whilst making assumtions is risky (as the op now knows) I'm not sure where this rule comes from. The op was turning left, the other driver turning right. If this was a light controlled crossing there would be no question as to which vehicle has priority. I can't find any 'first come, first served' rule in my copy of the HWC.

[7db]

It's the giveway line that gives this meaning.

TSRGD - 25(2)

Except as provided by paragraphs (3) to (6), the requirement conveyed by the transverse lines shown in diagram 1003, whether or not they are placed in conjunction with the sign shown in diagram 602 or 1023, shall be that no vehicle shall proceed past such one of those lines as is nearer the major road into that road in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of or any passenger in a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident.


It's hinted at in HC 172:-

The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.


It's a grey area in practice as cars which aren't yet "established" on the main road will have some contributory responsibility to prevent the collision (as indeed to all road users who can avoid the accident)

[7mike]

7db said:

It's the giveway line that gives this meaning.

TSRGD - 25(2)

Except as provided by paragraphs (3) to (6), the requirement conveyed by the transverse lines shown in diagram 1003, whether or not they are placed in conjunction with the sign shown in diagram 602 or 1023, shall be that no vehicle shall proceed past such one of those lines as is nearer the major road into that road in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of or any passenger in a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident.


It's hinted at in HC 172:-

The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.


It's a grey area in practice as cars which aren't yet "established" on the main road will have some contributory responsibility to prevent the collision (as indeed to all road users who can avoid the accident)

Thanks for that, I always wondered what all those broken white lines were for at the end of our road! Nevertheless, at a cross roads a vehicle going straight ahead or turning left has priority over a vehicle turning right, & I am aware not to make assumptions about the actions of others & therefore plan accordingly.

[7db]

Interesting you assert that. I know that's what many people think, but to echo your question earlier -- where do you get that from?

It's only stated as the case where the vehicles are on the major road passing through the crossroads (HC will give you pictures if you want).

Otherwise give way at the give way line. Obviously if they both enter at similar times then the one manoeuvring stays clear of the one continuing.

[havoc]

Mr Green - I WAS indicating - I always do (99% of the time, anyway...), and the self-cancel on the ITR is well-enough judged that I have to cancel it myself a lot more often than I have to re-arm it mid-manoeuvre.

7db - thanks for the regs. Ambiguous, but suggestive enough that if she got to the road first (even by 1-sec, which on reflection is probably about the time-lag we're talking about) then I should really be giving way to her. Thank god for good brakes and good reactions...


TBH I think I said in my first post that I knew it'd be an insurance 50:50, but the point of my post was more to work out what the professionals/experts on here would have done...and it sounds like "stop, select first, work out what the silly bint across the way was up to before proceeding" is the general consensus.

Thanks all for the input...and apologies 7db if I came across as arsy...may have taken your first post a bit too personally!

[MikePCG]

I may have misread this post - so apologies if I have. But from the OP's post, it appears that this is a cross roads and that the OP and the lady opposite was on minor roads wanting to enter a major road (so both lanes would have had give way signs and road markings).

With that out of the way, it should be common knowledge that the car turning left onto the major road (in this case the OP) has priority over the car turning right onto the major road, as the car turning right would then be crossing the path of his car.

The part about who got there first, is a matter for debate and in all cases as mentioned caution and insistance on priority should also never be taken for granted.

[firstmk1]

You could try adjusting your approach speed so that you don't arrive at these junctions at the same time as an opposing vehicle. This would give them a signal that you intend to proceed after them, it would also give you more time to assess their position and observations (i.e. looking for clues as to their intended route).

[Mr Green]

7db said:

Since a right-turner usually travels further than a left-turner, presumably she was in the major road before you.

She got there first. It's her road. You decided it was clear too early. Move your decision point later.

7db said:

It's hinted at in HC 172:-

The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.

Can't argue with that.