Discussion
i have come from driving rwd drive cars with alot of power and it has been a while since i have had a fast fwd car. i now currently have a 260bhp fiat coupe turbo. i find the grip is really good and the steering very direct and sharp. the body roll is not good and or are the shocks as they are very bouncy and the shocks aren't knackered just the norm for these cars.
the fact is i have seen some driving videos with people in fwd cars and i am amazed by the control. i tend to pitch the car it to much at i trow the car in really for oposite lock as you would from a rwd car but i must admit i think i caould improve my fwd skill alot. anyone got any tips?
the fact is i have seen some driving videos with people in fwd cars and i am amazed by the control. i tend to pitch the car it to much at i trow the car in really for oposite lock as you would from a rwd car but i must admit i think i caould improve my fwd skill alot. anyone got any tips?
1) Don't throw it in. You'll upset a fwd car as much as a rwd car, and in a fwd car the front wheels already have more work to do.
2) A 260bhp FCT is a pretty hairy place to start. IMHO they've a lot of grip and not a lot of finesse...
3) I'd expect the dampers to be tired on a car of that age, but that wouldn't explain why they were 'bouncy'. It's possible the car's been lowered, or otherwise doesn't have enough suspension travel to start with, and that the suspension is running out of answers for the roads/speeds you're submitting it to, so getting itself 'out-of-step' with the road.
4) Get the geometry checked out. Not quite as essential as a rwd car but can make the difference between the front-end always 'dragging' the rear behind it and a good driver able to use the rear-end to 'tuck the nose in'.
General fwd stuff:-
5) Get on the accelerator later (out of corners) than in a rwd car...without a diff you NEED to be past the apex and unwinding lock before you accelerate. Particularly with a high-power high-torque car.
6) You've more flexibility with the brakes before the car gets TRULY out-of-shape than with rwd. Use them to help get you out of situations more than with rwd, as you've fewer options (the throttle won't be much use in most cases).
7) Turn-in should be earlier than a rwd car. But not massively so, at least not on the road at road-speeds.
2) A 260bhp FCT is a pretty hairy place to start. IMHO they've a lot of grip and not a lot of finesse...
3) I'd expect the dampers to be tired on a car of that age, but that wouldn't explain why they were 'bouncy'. It's possible the car's been lowered, or otherwise doesn't have enough suspension travel to start with, and that the suspension is running out of answers for the roads/speeds you're submitting it to, so getting itself 'out-of-step' with the road.
4) Get the geometry checked out. Not quite as essential as a rwd car but can make the difference between the front-end always 'dragging' the rear behind it and a good driver able to use the rear-end to 'tuck the nose in'.
General fwd stuff:-
5) Get on the accelerator later (out of corners) than in a rwd car...without a diff you NEED to be past the apex and unwinding lock before you accelerate. Particularly with a high-power high-torque car.
6) You've more flexibility with the brakes before the car gets TRULY out-of-shape than with rwd. Use them to help get you out of situations more than with rwd, as you've fewer options (the throttle won't be much use in most cases).
7) Turn-in should be earlier than a rwd car. But not massively so, at least not on the road at road-speeds.
thanks for the reply.
i actually find 260bhp quite nice to deal with and it has stacks of grip.
the car has a lsd but its the wierd fiat one lol
the cars suspension is standard and i have had all the wishbones and tca and so on replaced and a geometry done on it.
i find you ca turn in later but i think i find i trun in late and hard and almost want the back to step out as its knida natrual for me but i think i need to ease it in the conners a bit more?
i am always worried to break hard on the limit as as you know rwd = spin and i haven't been brave enough to do it.
i actually find 260bhp quite nice to deal with and it has stacks of grip.
the car has a lsd but its the wierd fiat one lol
the cars suspension is standard and i have had all the wishbones and tca and so on replaced and a geometry done on it.
i find you ca turn in later but i think i find i trun in late and hard and almost want the back to step out as its knida natrual for me but i think i need to ease it in the conners a bit more?
i am always worried to break hard on the limit as as you know rwd = spin and i haven't been brave enough to do it.
to be fair i would love to blame the car but i think the fiat is actually a great machine and its the lack of track experinace in a fwd car slowing me down.
i have seen so vid's of people driving fwd cars and left foot braking to load up the diff to allow better traction and also allowing mental lift off over steer. i am not saying i would or will ever atempt stuff like that but relise there is alot that can be done with fwd and people dismiss them straight away, well im willing to learn to drive a fwd and i think i actually have much more confidence in fwd and suit me better than rwd.
so any major do or don't and keys to driving a fwd car?
i have seen so vid's of people driving fwd cars and left foot braking to load up the diff to allow better traction and also allowing mental lift off over steer. i am not saying i would or will ever atempt stuff like that but relise there is alot that can be done with fwd and people dismiss them straight away, well im willing to learn to drive a fwd and i think i actually have much more confidence in fwd and suit me better than rwd.
so any major do or don't and keys to driving a fwd car?
Hi mate, I drove a 250bhp Fiat Coupe turbo on road and track over a period of 3.5 years. Are you asking for tips to drive quickly on the road or on track? Attempting to get the back end out on the road without using the (useless) handbrake will take some real committment, probably too much for the road. I got the back end out on the road only a couple of times in nearly 4 years, both times in the wet on roundabouts at slow speeds whlie lifting (less than 25mph), and both were due to each axel being on a different surface on the roundabout.
Generally, to get the car to steer from the rear better (and this is a general rule for FWD cars) you need to install a thicker rear ARB, I believe whiteline (Aussie company) make such a bar (the Eibach one is like finding the holy grail in Coupe world, they don't make them any more) which you can get from Balance motorsport for not much £££. Match this to a suspension setup that suits you and what roads you drive on, and also to a wheel size which you are comfortable on (I ran the standard 16s, a friend had a lowered coupe on 18s and I found that too harsh for bumpy roads).
In terms of driving style, it's easier to push a FWD car as you generally only have to deal with understeer on most factory setup cars. On the coupe with 250bhp+ and the LSD, the only other characteristic to watch out for is "power understeer", which differs from general understeer or plowing into a corner too fast. Power understeer occurs if you try to drive too much power through the front wheels near/at or past the apex point on a corner (generally in the wet unless you are running a lot of power) and you actually get both fronts wheels to spin at the same time. Usually in a FWD car without a LSD the inside wheel will spin up if you apply too much power when trying to corner, although in a car with LSD the LSD pushes the torque to the other wheel. If that wheel also starts to spin, you basically get quite a violent transition to understeer, and can be thrown off the road quite quickly. I had this happen quite a few times in my car when pressing on in 2nd gear in the wet around corners, especially on Mway slip roads, so be very careful of this.
On track, to have fun it's all about braking late into corners and trying to coax the back end to step out. To maintain a tidy lap, you should be avoiding this and just sticking to standard track driving techniques and practice, although this will get boring after a while - and you'll want to try to unsettle the car to have some fun. Generally lifting off in a standard setup Coupe won't be enough to get the back end out in the dry, you are going to actually keep braking into the entry point of the corner, braking as late as you can which is quite unsettling at first. I had instruction at Bedford, and got the instructor to tell me when to start braking to get some oversteer, and I was quite shocked at what I was doing! This is a good way to learn the car and get better techniques, so I recommend it 100%.
So watch out for power understeer, and get some instruction on track asking about late braking techniques (it's called "trail braking").
Generally, to get the car to steer from the rear better (and this is a general rule for FWD cars) you need to install a thicker rear ARB, I believe whiteline (Aussie company) make such a bar (the Eibach one is like finding the holy grail in Coupe world, they don't make them any more) which you can get from Balance motorsport for not much £££. Match this to a suspension setup that suits you and what roads you drive on, and also to a wheel size which you are comfortable on (I ran the standard 16s, a friend had a lowered coupe on 18s and I found that too harsh for bumpy roads).
In terms of driving style, it's easier to push a FWD car as you generally only have to deal with understeer on most factory setup cars. On the coupe with 250bhp+ and the LSD, the only other characteristic to watch out for is "power understeer", which differs from general understeer or plowing into a corner too fast. Power understeer occurs if you try to drive too much power through the front wheels near/at or past the apex point on a corner (generally in the wet unless you are running a lot of power) and you actually get both fronts wheels to spin at the same time. Usually in a FWD car without a LSD the inside wheel will spin up if you apply too much power when trying to corner, although in a car with LSD the LSD pushes the torque to the other wheel. If that wheel also starts to spin, you basically get quite a violent transition to understeer, and can be thrown off the road quite quickly. I had this happen quite a few times in my car when pressing on in 2nd gear in the wet around corners, especially on Mway slip roads, so be very careful of this.
On track, to have fun it's all about braking late into corners and trying to coax the back end to step out. To maintain a tidy lap, you should be avoiding this and just sticking to standard track driving techniques and practice, although this will get boring after a while - and you'll want to try to unsettle the car to have some fun. Generally lifting off in a standard setup Coupe won't be enough to get the back end out in the dry, you are going to actually keep braking into the entry point of the corner, braking as late as you can which is quite unsettling at first. I had instruction at Bedford, and got the instructor to tell me when to start braking to get some oversteer, and I was quite shocked at what I was doing! This is a good way to learn the car and get better techniques, so I recommend it 100%.
So watch out for power understeer, and get some instruction on track asking about late braking techniques (it's called "trail braking").
thanks simma that was a really help full post. i was going to post on fccuk on this but they don't like talking about driving to fast on there and even more so if its road driving.
i find the understeer not to hard to deal with and i enjoy powering out in the wet and pervoking some understeer.
i think the back stepping out is more due to my car maybe the rear bearings are on ther way out to prvoke this.
i generally can't get the back out it tends to go where i want it and a little bit of opposite lock but not to correct the rear if that make sense.
i find it a little bland sometimes unless its wet and then its more fun but as a safe fast car the fiat stacks up well.
i find the understeer not to hard to deal with and i enjoy powering out in the wet and pervoking some understeer.
i think the back stepping out is more due to my car maybe the rear bearings are on ther way out to prvoke this.
i generally can't get the back out it tends to go where i want it and a little bit of opposite lock but not to correct the rear if that make sense.
i find it a little bland sometimes unless its wet and then its more fun but as a safe fast car the fiat stacks up well.
pitbull turbo said:
thanks simma that was a really help full post. i was going to post on fccuk on this but they don't like talking about driving to fast on there and even more so if its road driving.
i find the understeer not to hard to deal with and i enjoy powering out in the wet and pervoking some understeer.
i think the back stepping out is more due to my car maybe the rear bearings are on ther way out to prvoke this.
i generally can't get the back out it tends to go where i want it and a little bit of opposite lock but not to correct the rear if that make sense.
i find it a little bland sometimes unless its wet and then its more fun but as a safe fast car the fiat stacks up well.
FWD, RWD or AWD, please keep the antics for the track.i find the understeer not to hard to deal with and i enjoy powering out in the wet and pervoking some understeer.
i think the back stepping out is more due to my car maybe the rear bearings are on ther way out to prvoke this.
i generally can't get the back out it tends to go where i want it and a little bit of opposite lock but not to correct the rear if that make sense.
i find it a little bland sometimes unless its wet and then its more fun but as a safe fast car the fiat stacks up well.
Ask 10 Pence Short why, or search for his thread about his prison diary.
Advanced driving on Public roads is about not "pervoking some understeer".
Most skid control advice is old or passed down and concerns rear wheel drive, not front wheel drive. Understeer correction with FWD is indeed the same as with RWD. However, with oversteer in a FWD car you always accelerate. This will, as with RWD, help weight transfer back onto the rear wheels to give grip, but unlike RWD you don't run the risk of lessening grip at the rear with power application, in fact if you do have any effect at all with the power, it'll be to reduce front end grip which can only be a good thing.
In fact, the easy oversteer correction is the only dynamic advantage to FWD (the other being getting out of a muddy field, but that's just the engine position, which you can get with RWD too with mid or rear engined). Do a You Tube search on "plato brands hatch save" so see what I mean!! All he did there was floor it
In fact, the easy oversteer correction is the only dynamic advantage to FWD (the other being getting out of a muddy field, but that's just the engine position, which you can get with RWD too with mid or rear engined). Do a You Tube search on "plato brands hatch save" so see what I mean!! All he did there was floor it
ok for all you guys who think driving fast if for tracks lets say all my driving is track based but this can be wet or dry ! is that better?
ok i get the idea with the understeer and really its to back of the throttle and try to easy the car back on line without sharpe sharpe steering inputs but enough to fight off the understeer?
oversteer i have been told the best way is to just put your foot down to send weight to the back. i also got told if you get stuck in any situation excluding understeer the best way to level the car out is to give it gas?
the other problem is the fiat is quite nose heavey its 64% weight at the front but it really doesn't seam to understeer to badly or have any issue with torque steer which is nice but you can feel it is carrying alot of weight over the front. is there a anything to note when driving a front heavey fwd car? all my previous fast fwd cars where quite light and quite balanced.
ok i get the idea with the understeer and really its to back of the throttle and try to easy the car back on line without sharpe sharpe steering inputs but enough to fight off the understeer?
oversteer i have been told the best way is to just put your foot down to send weight to the back. i also got told if you get stuck in any situation excluding understeer the best way to level the car out is to give it gas?
the other problem is the fiat is quite nose heavey its 64% weight at the front but it really doesn't seam to understeer to badly or have any issue with torque steer which is nice but you can feel it is carrying alot of weight over the front. is there a anything to note when driving a front heavey fwd car? all my previous fast fwd cars where quite light and quite balanced.
pitbull turbo said:
ok for all you guys who think driving fast if for tracks lets say all my driving is track based but this can be wet or dry ! is that better?
ok i get the idea with the understeer and really its to back of the throttle and try to easy the car back on line without sharpe sharpe steering inputs but enough to fight off the understeer?
oversteer i have been told the best way is to just put your foot down to send weight to the back. i also got told if you get stuck in any situation excluding understeer the best way to level the car out is to give it gas?
the other problem is the fiat is quite nose heavey its 64% weight at the front but it really doesn't seam to understeer to badly or have any issue with torque steer which is nice but you can feel it is carrying alot of weight over the front. is there a anything to note when driving a front heavey fwd car? all my previous fast fwd cars where quite light and quite balanced.
1) You don't need to steer to get rid of understeer. The definition of understeer is that the front tyres have exceeded their useful slip angle and aren't really doing much. Use the throttle to restore the balance of the car - i.e. back off. For sure, if steering too much has caused the understeer then remove the cause (and improve your driving!), but essentially you need to be thinking about where the grip is in the car and use the throttle to trim that. In a corner you're aiming for one turn at turn-in, steady to the apex, and then lessen steering and increase throttle during the exit phase. You should never be increasing steering lock unleess you're turning in. So, in short, if you're driving properly, then just back off with understeer.ok i get the idea with the understeer and really its to back of the throttle and try to easy the car back on line without sharpe sharpe steering inputs but enough to fight off the understeer?
oversteer i have been told the best way is to just put your foot down to send weight to the back. i also got told if you get stuck in any situation excluding understeer the best way to level the car out is to give it gas?
the other problem is the fiat is quite nose heavey its 64% weight at the front but it really doesn't seam to understeer to badly or have any issue with torque steer which is nice but you can feel it is carrying alot of weight over the front. is there a anything to note when driving a front heavey fwd car? all my previous fast fwd cars where quite light and quite balanced.
2) you said: "if you get stuck in any situation excluding understeer" - that'll be oversteer then! There really are only three handling states - understeer (where you back off), oversteer (where you accelerate) and neutral steer (where if you accelerate you'll return to control/understeer, and if you back off you'll go to oversteer). Just think balance all the time. A useful visualisation is that your car is half full of water and that you are aiming to keep the water level (and steady). Do remember though that you need to be on the throttle to get maximum grip out of your car; that's not accelerating mind you, but just enough throttle to cancel out the drag of the drivetrain, slip etc.
3) Balance the car with your driving technique (see above). Very few cars will have a 50:50 weight distribution, or utilise their grip evenly front:rear (in fact if they did they'd be very difficult to drive), so instead one must use driving technique to balance them.
Hope that helps.
thants a great post fella.
i can see where you are going with the car full of water and keeping it level as then its trying to keep the car compossed.
really looks like i need to adjust my turn in and maybe soften it a bit and be more gental with the loud pedal to make it smoother for a faster diving.
if i want to have a bit more fun with the car on a track of course is there good ways of getting say the back end out in a controlled way or even a understeer slide but where the car stays fairly flat and the back follows to certian extent?
i can see where you are going with the car full of water and keeping it level as then its trying to keep the car compossed.
really looks like i need to adjust my turn in and maybe soften it a bit and be more gental with the loud pedal to make it smoother for a faster diving.
if i want to have a bit more fun with the car on a track of course is there good ways of getting say the back end out in a controlled way or even a understeer slide but where the car stays fairly flat and the back follows to certian extent?
Just get to know the car slowly and gently, then over time you will find it's natural limits and how to deal with them. Same with any car, you can read all the theory you want, but you just got to get in the car and try it out. If you are scared or doubt your ability, take it to a track where you can really let the leash off.
pitbull turbo said:
thants a great post fella.
i can see where you are going with the car full of water and keeping it level as then its trying to keep the car compossed.
really looks like i need to adjust my turn in and maybe soften it a bit and be more gental with the loud pedal to make it smoother for a faster diving.
if i want to have a bit more fun with the car on a track of course is there good ways of getting say the back end out in a controlled way or even a understeer slide but where the car stays fairly flat and the back follows to certian extent?
No problem. With regard to oversteer fun, yes, of course, in fact in my opinion front wheel drive is the best sort of chassis to play with oversteer in because it's easier to get the tail back in once it lets go (have a look at that Plato video I mentioned earlier!!). The only reason people don't use them for drifting much is because it's hard to hold them sideways - you're surviving on momentum all the time.i can see where you are going with the car full of water and keeping it level as then its trying to keep the car compossed.
really looks like i need to adjust my turn in and maybe soften it a bit and be more gental with the loud pedal to make it smoother for a faster diving.
if i want to have a bit more fun with the car on a track of course is there good ways of getting say the back end out in a controlled way or even a understeer slide but where the car stays fairly flat and the back follows to certian extent?
If you want any pointers actually out on a track just drop me a line and we'll sort something out. I've coached a number of people on track in the past (I'm currently doing some with a guy who's sprinting a Celica GT4 in fact), but don't charge anything because I'm not officially ARDS registered (that'll change soon hopefully though) and I don't want to break any rules etc - I just enjoy it. My quals are that I'm a professional trainer (currently in IT systems), have a degree in Physics and an interest in racing theory and have been racing for 8 years. Of particular interest to you is the fact that I raced FWD for five years (2001-2006), winning my class in about half of those races and still hold two lap records in the series (as far as I know!). If you'd rather pay for a more experienced (and probably faster!) coach then I'd highly recommend Mark Hales or Simon Mason. Mark's got a couple of front drive saloons that he teaches in. I was going to get some coaching myself from him, but we've yet to sort something out, although I've chatted to him on the phone in depth and he's very knowledgeable indeed and has just the right attitude for coaching.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 4th June 15:14
i totally agree that oversteer is great fun and coming from powerful rwd cars i am not shy to a bit of oversteer but at the same point in normal driving you are still on alert incase it decideds to catch you out.
i have actually enjoyed moving from rwd back to fwd and its just a easier and safer car to drive on the road.
i need some more track time and i would love some coaching as it would be the best modifaction to make to my cars (improving the plum driving it lol) and great fun to but its finding the time at the moment :-(
i have actually enjoyed moving from rwd back to fwd and its just a easier and safer car to drive on the road.
i need some more track time and i would love some coaching as it would be the best modifaction to make to my cars (improving the plum driving it lol) and great fun to but its finding the time at the moment :-(
pitbull turbo said:
i totally agree that oversteer is great fun and coming from powerful rwd cars i am not shy to a bit of oversteer but at the same point in normal driving you are still on alert incase it decideds to catch you out.
i have actually enjoyed moving from rwd back to fwd and its just a easier and safer car to drive on the road.
i need some more track time and i would love some coaching as it would be the best modifaction to make to my cars (improving the plum driving it lol) and great fun to but its finding the time at the moment :-(
i have actually enjoyed moving from rwd back to fwd and its just a easier and safer car to drive on the road.
i need some more track time and i would love some coaching as it would be the best modifaction to make to my cars (improving the plum driving it lol) and great fun to but its finding the time at the moment :-(
Once you're happy with the car's handling and what it does then you can relax on the public road and concentrate on the sort of stuff that the guys on this forum discuss (safe road driving). Observation and avoiding accidents is what "Advanced Driving" is all about, but in my honest opinion (and I know I'm in a minority on here in thinking this), it helps hugely if you know how to keep your car as far from the limit as possible in normal driving, and to do this you need to know what things affect a car's "limit" at any point, because the limit does vary depending on how you drive, and you discover that on track. Also of course if the worst should happen on the road if you've got some limit experience you stand a better chance of dealing with things.Interesting thread (and refreshing not to have the default "buy a RWD car" answer).
Rob - any thoughts on FWD cars with an LSD? I've found that if pushed a little too hard they can bite in the wrong place (if that makes sense).
Would also be interested in your thoughts on dealing with "lift-off oversteer"
Rob - any thoughts on FWD cars with an LSD? I've found that if pushed a little too hard they can bite in the wrong place (if that makes sense).
Would also be interested in your thoughts on dealing with "lift-off oversteer"
i am quite happy with the car and i have had it for about 10 months so quite used to it. i don't like the body roll in the car and i think i need to make some upgrades on the suspension front. the fact is that i know i could improve the way i drive it and the same applys to when i had rwd,i just think really i need to drive it more and improve the bits i dislike.
i must admit i am not the sort of person who wants to take a conner at a100mph as i know and fell its unsafe on our roads but its more having fun at lower speeds in a fwd car.
i must admit i am not the sort of person who wants to take a conner at a100mph as i know and fell its unsafe on our roads but its more having fun at lower speeds in a fwd car.
Podie said:
Rob - any thoughts on FWD cars with an LSD? I've found that if pushed a little too hard they can bite in the wrong place (if that makes sense).
Yes, they can complicate things sometimes. The truth is that I've never driven a FWD car with an LSD on track, so I wouldn't like to comment. The trick with LSDs is to understand and feel how the diff works and be sensitive to it, especially in the corner exit phase. Look up Chris Harris' excellent left foot braking Focus RS video too.Podie said:
Would also be interested in your thoughts on dealing with "lift-off oversteer"
See my points above, especially the water analogy. "Lift off oversteer" is just a weight transfer effect - all cars tend towards understeer if you accelerate and tend towards oversteer when you decelerate. The only complication to this is how RWD cars handle (because power effects with RWD work the opposite way round, so you've got the two effects inter-playing constantly), but with FWD cars it really is just that simple. Normally, when you back off in a corner you'll just feel the tendency to reduce understeer as a tucking in of the nose, but if you're close to the limit and you lift off suddenly enough then yes, the car can noticeably oversteer.
The first piece of advice I'd have is to go back to basics (i.e. avoid the situation in the first place!) and be sensitive to the balance of the car when driving at all speeds and at all times, so when you back off you'll be lessening the steering to maintain the same course and when you accelerate you'll do the opposite. This is not limit stuff, it works at any speed. Learn to use the steering and the throttle together as one. That way, when you back off mid corner you will be lessening steering in unison and the oversteer will never materialise; that'll only happen if you back off and cling on to the same steering angle. Try to think about the steering and the throttle as guiding the car.
Secondly, when/if the lift off oversteer does actually happen, then just do what you need to with the throttle to restore the balance in the car, which in the case of lift off oversteer will be to accelerate!
Avoiding these things in the first place is always better than learning how to cope once they happen though
If you're a sympathetic driver and use the steering and throttle properly then you'll find lift off oversteer isn't really a concern.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff