Near miss, who was at fault?

[GaryST220]

Yesterday I was travelling on a districted autobahn in lane 2 (lane closest the central reservation), the conditions were good and traffic was light (and I had my headlights running).

A truck was on the approaching slip road, with a Toyota Yaris behind. Before the truck had joined the autobahn, the Toyota Yaris went from the slip road straight into lane 2 and straight into my path. I had to brake as hard as I could and swerve into lane 1 but managed to kill enough speed so that I did not pass either vehicle.

Obviously this could have resulted in a bad accident had I not have been able to stop in time, and thankfully the truck driver had seen what was happening and remained on the slip road.

So who is at fault and why? The way I see it is that there are 3 opinions;

1) The Toyota Yaris driver is totally to blame for this near miss; they didn’t check their mirrors and showed a complete lack of attention.

2) I am at fault for doing such speeds, despite being legally allowed.

3) We both hold partially responsibility, I should have driven more defensively and slowed down before approaching the junction and the Toyota Yaris driver should not have dived from the slip road straight into lane 2.

Regardless, I do regret not pulling over the driver of the Yaris and giving him a piece of my mind. When I passed him he seemed completely oblivious to what he had just done.

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

Cheers

[mph999]

GaryST220 said:

Yesterday I was travelling on a districted autobahn in lane 2 (lane closest the central reservation), the conditions were good and traffic was light (and I had my headlights running).

A truck was on the approaching slip road, with a Toyota Yaris behind. Before the truck had joined the autobahn, the Toyota Yaris went from the slip road straight into lane 2 and straight into my path. I had to brake as hard as I could and swerve into lane 1 but managed to kill enough speed so that I did not pass either vehicle.

Obviously this could have resulted in a bad accident had I not have been able to stop in time, and thankfully the truck driver had seen what was happening and remained on the slip road.

So who is at fault and why? The way I see it is that there are 3 opinions;

1) The Toyota Yaris driver is totally to blame for this near miss; they didn’t check their mirrors and showed a complete lack of attention.

2) I am at fault for doing such speeds, despite being legally allowed.

3) We both hold partially responsibility, I should have driven more defensively and slowed down before approaching the junction and the Toyota Yaris driver should not have dived from the slip road straight into lane 2.

Regardless, I do regret not pulling over the driver of the Yaris and giving him a piece of my mind. When I passed him he seemed completely oblivious to what he had just done.

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

Cheers

Technically I would say the Toyota, a bit more forward planning may have avoided the situation, but doesn't shift the blame.

Martin

[vonhosen]

We have a duty of co-operation on the roads. Rarely in incidents is 100% blame attributable to a single party.

In the circumstances the Toyota should check he can enter the new lane safely without putting himself and others at risk. I think it safe to assume that he entered the lane in order to assist the entry of the lorry from the slip road & that it is most likely that he either didn't look or did look but misjudged your speed & distance (there is of course the chance that he didn't give a toss but that's probably unlikely seeing as he was trying to assist another motorist).

In relation to the OPs actions, if you are going to use high speeds you have an enhanced duty of care because of the extra risks it poses. If you don't feel that is fair, don't travel at higher speeds would be my advice. What you have to ask yourself is was the vehicle's actions reasonably forseeable in the circumstances. If you consider it was, perhaps you should have done something earlier about reducing the differential to a more comfortably manageable one.

In collisions or near misses it usually only takes the correct actions by one party to have made the potential a non event. It usually takes some degree of failing on both parties to have allowed it to become an adverse encounter. It's no good blaming after the event, it's far better to be proactive about avoiding potential conflict by sound observation tied to anticipation & planning.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 27th May 17:04

[neaput]

I can understand your frustration with muppet driving, however I thought there was something in German driving law about you being held partly responsible for damages resulting from an accident when travelling over the 130kph advisory limit on a de-restricted section of autobahn, even if the accident was not your fault?

http://www.german-autobahn.eu/index.asp?page=speed...

I'm not excusing the behaviour of the Yaris, however as described by the previous poster, it takes two to tango

[p1esk]

vonhosen said:

We have a duty of co-operation on the roads. Rarely in incidents is 100% blame attributable to a single party.

In the circumstances the Toyota should check he can enter the new lane safely without putting himself and others at risk. I think it safe to assume that he entered the lane in order to assist the entry of the lorry from the slip road & that it is most likely that he either didn't look or did look but misjudged your speed & distance (there is of course the chance that he didn't give a toss but that's probably unlikely seeing as he was trying to assist another motorist).

In relation to the OPs actions, if you are going to use high speeds you have an enhanced duty of care because of the extra risks it poses. If you don't feel that is fair, don't travel at higher speeds would be my advice. What you have to ask yourself is was the vehicle's actions reasonably forseeable in the circumstances. If you consider it was, perhaps you should have done something earlier about reducing the differential to a more comfortably manageable one.

In collisions or near misses it usually only takes the correct actions by one party to have made the potential a non event. It usually takes some degree of failing on both parties to have allowed it to become an adverse encounter. It's no good blaming after the event, it's far better to be proactive about avoiding potential conflict by sound observation tied to anticipation & planning.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 27th May 17:04

I would have thought it equally likely that the Yaris driver was primarily intent on enhancing his own progress, rather than concerning himself with helping the lorry driver.

If his true intent was to assist the lorry driver, this suggests to me a higher quality of thinking than is implied by simply aiding his own progress, and if that was the case I think he would be less likely to make the mistake he did.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[GaryST220]

Thank you for the input.

Vonhosen, the Toyota driver did not "assist" the lorry driver, it is purely a case of impatience. I will heed to the advice given and drive more defensively. I think one of my downfalls is having too much faith in other motorists, I should treat everyone else as an idiot.

Regards.

Edit: Would like to say, in all of my 54,000 miles of motoring, that was my first emergency stop (so I can't be that bad).

Edited by GaryST220 on Wednesday 27th May 19:17

[rsv gone!]

GaryST220 said:

Thank you for the input.

Vonhosen, the Toyota driver did not "assist" the lorry driver, it is purely a case of impatience. I will heed to the advice given and drive more defensively. I think one of my downfalls is having too much faith in other motorists, I should treat everyone else as an idiot.

Regards.

Something my Dad used to say to me whilst I was still new to driving was that I put too much faith in the abilities of other people. (eg When tearing past slower vehicles)

IMO To summarise, the Toyota was a moron but you rescued the situation. Perhaps you ought to have anticipated such a stupid manoeuvre. I bet you won't carry as much closing speed in future.

[GaryST220]

rsv gone! said:

GaryST220 said:

Thank you for the input.

Vonhosen, the Toyota driver did not "assist" the lorry driver, it is purely a case of impatience. I will heed to the advice given and drive more defensively. I think one of my downfalls is having too much faith in other motorists, I should treat everyone else as an idiot.

Regards.

Something my Dad used to say to me whilst I was still new to driving was that I put too much faith in the abilities of other people. (eg When tearing past slower vehicles)

IMO To summarise, the Toyota was a moron but you rescued the situation. Perhaps you ought to have anticipated such a stupid manoeuvre. I bet you won't carry as much closing speed in future.

I had actually lifted and was breathing on the brake pedal before they pulled that stunt, more often than not I will kill my speed slightly when approaching a hazard whether it be a car on a slip road or a green traffic light. Nevertheless, I have definately learnt something, my birthday treat for the day.

[WhoseGeneration]

GaryST220 said:

Yesterday I was travelling on a districted autobahn in lane 2 (lane closest the central reservation), the conditions were good and traffic was light (and I had my headlights running).

A truck was on the approaching slip road, with a Toyota Yaris behind. Before the truck had joined the autobahn, the Toyota Yaris went from the slip road straight into lane 2 and straight into my path. I had to brake as hard as I could and swerve into lane 1 but managed to kill enough speed so that I did not pass either vehicle.

Obviously this could have resulted in a bad accident had I not have been able to stop in time, and thankfully the truck driver had seen what was happening and remained on the slip road.

So who is at fault and why? The way I see it is that there are 3 opinions;

1) The Toyota Yaris driver is totally to blame for this near miss; they didn’t check their mirrors and showed a complete lack of attention.

2) I am at fault for doing such speeds, despite being legally allowed.

3) We both hold partially responsibility, I should have driven more defensively and slowed down before approaching the junction and the Toyota Yaris driver should not have dived from the slip road straight into lane 2.

Regardless, I do regret not pulling over the driver of the Yaris and giving him a piece of my mind. When I passed him he seemed completely oblivious to what he had just done.

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

Cheers

Simple, lack of anticipation on your part, for the various scenarios that might occur upon the approach to an on slip, in whichever country.
Your speed is irrelevant.

[neaput]

GaryST220 said:

I think one of my downfalls is having too much faith in other motorists, I should treat everyone else as an idiot.

A very wise approach to other road users. Assume the unbelievable could happen and you will often be pleasantly surprised by good behaviour

[hugo a gogo]

depends how fast you were going i suppose, if you were really shifting, technically you'd be partially to blame in the eyes of the law

[tim-b]

IMO, it's the lorry drivers' responsibility to merge safely onto the carriageway and the Toyota's responsibility to execute a safe lane-changing manouvre. I think there is a line in the Highway Code that states something like 'if you cannot pull out without causing another road user to take action then you shouldn't do so'. this is from a hazy memory and for the UK law anyway so don't know if it's applicable/accurate. either way, if you die or are seriously injured in a crash like this it's irrelevant whose fault it is really!

[cs02rm0]

[quote=GaryST220]the Toyota Yaris went from the slip road straight into lane 2/quote]

This is standard operating procedure on the M4 in Wales, even if there's nothing in lane 1.

[Fidgits]

neaput said:

I can understand your frustration with muppet driving, however I thought there was something in German driving law about you being held partly responsible for damages resulting from an accident when travelling over the 130kph advisory limit on a de-restricted section of autobahn, even if the accident was not your fault?

http://www.german-autobahn.eu/index.asp?page=speed...

I'm not excusing the behaviour of the Yaris, however as described by the previous poster, it takes two to tango

yes, that was my first thought on reading the OP...

While effectively the Yaris was at fault - under German law exceeding 130kph means you should be fully aware of your surroundings and be able to avoid any incident ahead.

[Podie]

GaryST220 said:

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

How's the big old bus around the 'ring then..?

Hope you've got some decent brakes on it, otherwise they'll be cooked nicely...

[GaryST220]

WhoseGeneration said:

GaryST220 said:

Yesterday I was travelling on a districted autobahn in lane 2 (lane closest the central reservation), the conditions were good and traffic was light (and I had my headlights running).

A truck was on the approaching slip road, with a Toyota Yaris behind. Before the truck had joined the autobahn, the Toyota Yaris went from the slip road straight into lane 2 and straight into my path. I had to brake as hard as I could and swerve into lane 1 but managed to kill enough speed so that I did not pass either vehicle.

Obviously this could have resulted in a bad accident had I not have been able to stop in time, and thankfully the truck driver had seen what was happening and remained on the slip road.

So who is at fault and why? The way I see it is that there are 3 opinions;

1) The Toyota Yaris driver is totally to blame for this near miss; they didn’t check their mirrors and showed a complete lack of attention.

2) I am at fault for doing such speeds, despite being legally allowed.

3) We both hold partially responsibility, I should have driven more defensively and slowed down before approaching the junction and the Toyota Yaris driver should not have dived from the slip road straight into lane 2.

Regardless, I do regret not pulling over the driver of the Yaris and giving him a piece of my mind. When I passed him he seemed completely oblivious to what he had just done.

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

Cheers

Simple, lack of anticipation on your part, for the various scenarios that might occur upon the approach to an on slip, in whichever country.
Your speed is irrelevant.

I don't think thats a fair comment. I had priority and I had anticipated the posibility of their maneuver which is why I had started to brake before they changed lanes, but I did not expect them to actually do it.

tim-b said:

IMO, it's the lorry drivers' responsibility to merge safely onto the carriageway and the Toyota's responsibility to execute a safe lane-changing manouvre. I think there is a line in the Highway Code that states something like 'if you cannot pull out without causing another road user to take action then you shouldn't do so'. this is from a hazy memory and for the UK law anyway so don't know if it's applicable/accurate. either way, if you die or are seriously injured in a crash like this it's irrelevant whose fault it is really!

That is correct, if any maneuver you execute affects a third party then you are in the wrong - in this case, the Toyota Driver.

Podie said:

GaryST220 said:

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

How's the big old bus around the 'ring then..?

Hope you've got some decent brakes on it, otherwise they'll be cooked nicely...

Pretty well, expect to see a HD video on youtube in a few days - and no, brakes are crap.

[deeps]

This reminds me a little of a similar situation, where a driver in lane 3 of a motorway will be making good progress at say 100mph, but get frustrated and flash his lights at anyone that pulls into his path from lane 2, slowing him down to 80.

I think any driver carrying high speed which may or may not be expected or observed by others, has a duty to anticipate the actions of, and accommodate any slower vehicles they come across, regardless of how poor their observation is when they pull out infront of them.

In the OP's incident, if he was doing around a 3 figure speed or more, I would say he should have anticipated potential trouble a little better. That's not to say that the other driver doesn't deserve a lesson in observation, but you can only help yourself sometimes.

[p1esk]

Podie said:

GaryST220 said:

Now the ring' opens in 15 minutes, I'm off!

How's the big old bus around the 'ring then..?

Ooh yes, the big bus. Is it still breaking wind at 90 ?

Film buffs should know what I'm talking about.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Pigeon]

Flags of all nations as a sort of emergency airbrake? I think, it was a long time ago

[SamHH]

GaryST220 said:

I had actually lifted and was breathing on the brake pedal before they pulled that stunt, more often than not I will kill my speed slightly when approaching a hazard whether it be a car on a slip road or a green traffic light. Nevertheless, I have definately learnt something, my birthday treat for the day.

Regardless of who's to blame in the legal sense, I think this shows that you did the first part - anticipating that the problem might occur - but didn't carry that through to the second part - slowing down enough that if the problem did occur you would be comfortably able to deal with it and avoid a collision. You knew that the Toyota driver might pull into your path and you lifted off because of it, but you still continued at a speed that meant you had to use full braking force and switch lanes when he did pull out.

Edited by SamHH on Saturday 30th May 11:15