Just had my first IAM session
Discussion
Just had my first IAM session today, which seemed go well.
- Other than the fact the idle control valve seames to have picked this morning to packup.
It was highlighted that i tend to hold my left hand in the bottom left quarter of the wheel (right hand in top right) rather than both at the prescribed 10-to-2 possitionings. Which is something i knew about, but didnt consider much of a problem, so maybe a habit to get out of.
And also repeated commments about speed being to great (inc 25 in a 20 i didnt spot) and speed not being great enough (inc 50 on unfamiluar a NSL) country road where i didnt really feel happy at 60. So thats all all-right.
However the main thing that was mentioned repeatedly was my use of indicators. There where a few times on the assessed drive i missed an indicator and knew that i had. However the comment made was infact that i was using them too much. Mainly at junctions when there 'wasnt any need'.
I dont know the rights or wrongs myself, but i was always taught during my driving lessons (4years ago) that while turnings off country roads etc you dont need to indicate if there know one around, you should always indicate at a major junction reguardless of whos about, and certainl if its busy. However this morning it was suggest that unless theres someone who specifically needs my signal, ie, someone who may have to react to it, such a a following car, that i should indicate.
So potentenally you could by making a right turn at a flooded traffic controled junction, and unless there was someone behind you, sit there not indicating, and then perform the full manover with no signaling at all. I did this, as instucted, but it felt very un-nateral indeed.
When i raised the point, compairing it to my driving lessons, i would suggested there would lots i would be learning diffrently (fair enough) and that later on i would have more than enough to concentrate on without unnessary singnaling.
However i dont concentrate on signaling. I basically alywas indicate, what ever im doing, who evers about, without ever thinking about it at all. Even in the kitcar where the flashers are not self cancelling. Certainly seams a lot easier to simply commit it to a refex than to have to consider exactly who is where and why before indicating (or not).
Dont know what the pistonheads thoughts on that is?
Basically enjoyed the lesson a lot. Not easy to 'drive as if the instructor wasnt there' and hard work to be concentrating on what there saying and teaching, as well as driving, on totaly unfamiluar roads, when there clearly famiular to the instructor. Partiularly in a car that wont idle, at 9am on a my saturday morning!
Daniel
- Other than the fact the idle control valve seames to have picked this morning to packup.
It was highlighted that i tend to hold my left hand in the bottom left quarter of the wheel (right hand in top right) rather than both at the prescribed 10-to-2 possitionings. Which is something i knew about, but didnt consider much of a problem, so maybe a habit to get out of.
And also repeated commments about speed being to great (inc 25 in a 20 i didnt spot) and speed not being great enough (inc 50 on unfamiluar a NSL) country road where i didnt really feel happy at 60. So thats all all-right.
However the main thing that was mentioned repeatedly was my use of indicators. There where a few times on the assessed drive i missed an indicator and knew that i had. However the comment made was infact that i was using them too much. Mainly at junctions when there 'wasnt any need'.
I dont know the rights or wrongs myself, but i was always taught during my driving lessons (4years ago) that while turnings off country roads etc you dont need to indicate if there know one around, you should always indicate at a major junction reguardless of whos about, and certainl if its busy. However this morning it was suggest that unless theres someone who specifically needs my signal, ie, someone who may have to react to it, such a a following car, that i should indicate.
So potentenally you could by making a right turn at a flooded traffic controled junction, and unless there was someone behind you, sit there not indicating, and then perform the full manover with no signaling at all. I did this, as instucted, but it felt very un-nateral indeed.
When i raised the point, compairing it to my driving lessons, i would suggested there would lots i would be learning diffrently (fair enough) and that later on i would have more than enough to concentrate on without unnessary singnaling.
However i dont concentrate on signaling. I basically alywas indicate, what ever im doing, who evers about, without ever thinking about it at all. Even in the kitcar where the flashers are not self cancelling. Certainly seams a lot easier to simply commit it to a refex than to have to consider exactly who is where and why before indicating (or not).
Dont know what the pistonheads thoughts on that is?
Basically enjoyed the lesson a lot. Not easy to 'drive as if the instructor wasnt there' and hard work to be concentrating on what there saying and teaching, as well as driving, on totaly unfamiluar roads, when there clearly famiular to the instructor. Partiularly in a car that wont idle, at 9am on a my saturday morning!
Daniel
dhutch said:
Just had my first IAM session today, which seemed go well.
- Other than the fact the idle control valve seames to have picked this morning to packup.
It was highlighted that i tend to hold my left hand in the bottom left quarter of the wheel (right hand in top right) rather than both at the prescribed 10-to-2 possitionings. Which is something i knew about, but didnt consider much of a problem, so maybe a habit to get out of.
And also repeated commments about speed being to great (inc 25 in a 20 i didnt spot) and speed not being great enough (inc 50 on unfamiluar a NSL) country road where i didnt really feel happy at 60. So thats all all-right.
However the main thing that was mentioned repeatedly was my use of indicators. There where a few times on the assessed drive i missed an indicator and knew that i had. However the comment made was infact that i was using them too much. Mainly at junctions when there 'wasnt any need'.
I dont know the rights or wrongs myself, but i was always taught during my driving lessons (4years ago) that while turnings off country roads etc you dont need to indicate if there know one around, you should always indicate at a major junction reguardless of whos about, and certainl if its busy. However this morning it was suggest that unless theres someone who specifically needs my signal, ie, someone who may have to react to it, such a a following car, that i should indicate.
So potentenally you could by making a right turn at a flooded traffic controled junction, and unless there was someone behind you, sit there not indicating, and then perform the full manover with no signaling at all. I did this, as instucted, but it felt very un-nateral indeed.
When i raised the point, compairing it to my driving lessons, i would suggested there would lots i would be learning diffrently (fair enough) and that later on i would have more than enough to concentrate on without unnessary singnaling.
However i dont concentrate on signaling. I basically alywas indicate, what ever im doing, who evers about, without ever thinking about it at all. Even in the kitcar where the flashers are not self cancelling. Certainly seams a lot easier to simply commit it to a refex than to have to consider exactly who is where and why before indicating (or not).
Dont know what the pistonheads thoughts on that is?
Basically enjoyed the lesson a lot. Not easy to 'drive as if the instructor wasnt there' and hard work to be concentrating on what there saying and teaching, as well as driving, on totaly unfamiluar roads, when there clearly famiular to the instructor. Partiularly in a car that wont idle, at 9am on a my saturday morning!
Daniel
Yeah I don't think that 'never' thinking about signalling is a good thing & equally I don't think that a dogmatic 'only signal if there is somebody to benefit' is necessarily going to produce the best results for you either. What about 'signal unless it could be misleading' instead ?- Other than the fact the idle control valve seames to have picked this morning to packup.
It was highlighted that i tend to hold my left hand in the bottom left quarter of the wheel (right hand in top right) rather than both at the prescribed 10-to-2 possitionings. Which is something i knew about, but didnt consider much of a problem, so maybe a habit to get out of.
And also repeated commments about speed being to great (inc 25 in a 20 i didnt spot) and speed not being great enough (inc 50 on unfamiluar a NSL) country road where i didnt really feel happy at 60. So thats all all-right.
However the main thing that was mentioned repeatedly was my use of indicators. There where a few times on the assessed drive i missed an indicator and knew that i had. However the comment made was infact that i was using them too much. Mainly at junctions when there 'wasnt any need'.
I dont know the rights or wrongs myself, but i was always taught during my driving lessons (4years ago) that while turnings off country roads etc you dont need to indicate if there know one around, you should always indicate at a major junction reguardless of whos about, and certainl if its busy. However this morning it was suggest that unless theres someone who specifically needs my signal, ie, someone who may have to react to it, such a a following car, that i should indicate.
So potentenally you could by making a right turn at a flooded traffic controled junction, and unless there was someone behind you, sit there not indicating, and then perform the full manover with no signaling at all. I did this, as instucted, but it felt very un-nateral indeed.
When i raised the point, compairing it to my driving lessons, i would suggested there would lots i would be learning diffrently (fair enough) and that later on i would have more than enough to concentrate on without unnessary singnaling.
However i dont concentrate on signaling. I basically alywas indicate, what ever im doing, who evers about, without ever thinking about it at all. Even in the kitcar where the flashers are not self cancelling. Certainly seams a lot easier to simply commit it to a refex than to have to consider exactly who is where and why before indicating (or not).
Dont know what the pistonheads thoughts on that is?
Basically enjoyed the lesson a lot. Not easy to 'drive as if the instructor wasnt there' and hard work to be concentrating on what there saying and teaching, as well as driving, on totaly unfamiluar roads, when there clearly famiular to the instructor. Partiularly in a car that wont idle, at 9am on a my saturday morning!
Daniel
Find what gives you the best most accurate results in what you are looking to achieve.
Your observer may not go along with that premise though.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 23 May 10:52
vonhosen said:
Yeah I don't think that 'never' thinking about signalling is a good thing & equally I don't think that a dogmatic 'only signal if there is somebody to benefit' is necessarily going to produce the best results for you either. What about 'signal unless it could be misleading' instead ?
Find what gives you the best most accurate results in what you are looking to achieve.
Your observer may not go along with that premise though.
Well, prehaps i laid on the not thinking about it all thing a little thick.Find what gives you the best most accurate results in what you are looking to achieve.
Your observer may not go along with that premise though.
- I mean for instance, where theres juntion close to the junction i turn at, i dont indicate prematurly. And i have thought about each induvidual junction type and when and where i feel i should start indicating, or even sometime, not.
However its place like as i say, when turning right at a busy trafic control crossroads (large a-roads here), waiting in the right turning lane, to turn right. I feel i should indicate.
IN one way as you say, clearly i am in the right turning lane, and unless im obscuring the last painted on arrow people will know anyway. The cars from the left wont be able to see if i do or dont and for the cars from the right dont have to give way if i am or arnt. Infact, there shouldnt.
However i just stuggle at all to see why i shouldnt indicate and how the additional informantion could do any harm to anyone, including meself.
As i said to him, i have nothing to conpair hes comments to other than my driving instuctor from five years ago, as the only other form of drivig tuition i have. And what i have witnessed other drivers do.
However other drives do, with exceptions, basicaly indicate all the time. And if nothing else, right or wrong, breaking from this generally accepted tradition is asking for people to misinturpret my actions or ablity.
Again, just thinking out loud, gauging others thoughts, and trying to confirm what my own thoughts on the matter are.
Daniel
dhutch said:
vonhosen said:
Yeah I don't think that 'never' thinking about signalling is a good thing & equally I don't think that a dogmatic 'only signal if there is somebody to benefit' is necessarily going to produce the best results for you either. What about 'signal unless it could be misleading' instead ?
Find what gives you the best most accurate results in what you are looking to achieve.
Your observer may not go along with that premise though.
Well, prehaps i laid on the not thinking about it all thing a little thick.Find what gives you the best most accurate results in what you are looking to achieve.
Your observer may not go along with that premise though.
- I mean for instance, where theres juntion close to the junction i turn at, i dont indicate prematurly. And i have thought about each induvidual junction type and when and where i feel i should start indicating, or even sometime, not.
However its place like as i say, when turning right at a busy trafic control crossroads (large a-roads here), waiting in the right turning lane, to turn right. I feel i should indicate.
If not what harm is in it ?
If that's all they've got to worry about, then you must be very good.
If not then their focus may be misplaced.
As far as I personally am concerned, you should be attempting to find a system that produces the best most reliable results for you. That of course may not be what your observer tells you that you have to do in order to pass their test.
The best system for you is one that puts the odds in your favour & reduces your instances of error/conflict.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 23 May 11:50
dhutch said:
It was highlighted that i tend to hold my left hand in the bottom left quarter of the wheel (right hand in top right) rather than both at the prescribed 10-to-2 possitionings.
How do you start left turns? 10-2 or 9-3 is usually comfortable. Is your driving position correct?dhutch said:
And also repeated commments about speed being to great (inc 25 in a 20 i didnt spot) and speed not being great enough (inc 50 on unfamiluar a NSL) country road where i didnt really feel happy at 60. So thats all all-right.
If it's safe to do 60 in a 60, they expect that. He should be teaching you how to judge a safe speed for the road (up to the limit). The familiarity of the road should have no bearing on your speed. dhutch said:
However the main thing that was mentioned repeatedly was my use of indicators. There where a few times on the assessed drive i missed an indicator and knew that i had. However the comment made was infact that i was using them too much. Mainly at junctions when there 'wasnt any need'.
Aagghhh! Not the famous IAM indicating issue 
Don't get hung up on it. You won't fail for over-indicating in some situations. Just give some thought to the idea of indicating if someone can benefit (including pedestrians).
dhutch said:
Basically enjoyed the lesson a lot. Not easy to 'drive as if the instructor wasnt there' and hard work to be concentrating on what there saying and teaching, as well as driving, on totaly unfamiluar roads, when there clearly famiular to the instructor. Partiularly in a car that wont idle, at 9am on a my saturday morning!
Good! The first one will be understandably nervous, even without mechanical issues. He shouldn't be overloading you - tell him to slow down. Keep up the reports!
I tend to indicate more than IAM like too, no harm in making it absolutely clear where you're going with all the numptys on the road. I had to be careful not to indicate when they didn't want me to - just to keep them instructor (and I assume examiner) happy. In this case I agree with Vonhosen.
Vaux said:
How do you start left turns? 10-2 or 9-3 is usually comfortable. Is your driving position correct?
If it's safe to do 60 in a 60, they expect that. He should be teaching you how to judge a safe speed for the road (up to the limit). The familiarity of the road should have no bearing on your speed.
Aagghhh! Not the famous IAM indicating issue
Don't get hung up on it. You won't fail for over-indicating in some situations. Just give some thought to the idea of indicating if someone can benefit (including pedestrians).
Good! The first one will be understandably nervous, even without mechanical issues. He shouldn't be overloading you - tell him to slow down. Keep up the reports!
I dont actually know how i start a left turn. I will moniter that. As well i ultimatly trying to stick to the 10-2 position (stearing wheel doesnt really allow 9-3 due to spoke placment) it just feels a long way away. If it's safe to do 60 in a 60, they expect that. He should be teaching you how to judge a safe speed for the road (up to the limit). The familiarity of the road should have no bearing on your speed.
Aagghhh! Not the famous IAM indicating issue
Don't get hung up on it. You won't fail for over-indicating in some situations. Just give some thought to the idea of indicating if someone can benefit (including pedestrians).
Good! The first one will be understandably nervous, even without mechanical issues. He shouldn't be overloading you - tell him to slow down. Keep up the reports!
- I might try the seat a little more upright, but i find my arms shorter than my legs for geting pedal/stearingwheel reach right. And have the same problem when sizing mountainbikes.
Also interesting to know the the IAM 'indicating thing' is not a new thing then. Its not just me anyway!
I didnt feel pushed at all, even when he was suggesting could go fast, i just said i was happier at 50 for that bit, which was in and out of shade and a bit twisty and off camber in places. I just very much noticed that i had been working quite hard once i got in from the drive.
He also mentioned right at the start of the session that is was the first session he had taken (after going out with a load of the other supervisors etc) which i sort of wish he hadnt, as it obviously effected my opinion of him before i had even had time to form one.
- Even if he had mentioned at the end that it was his first, or that he hadnt done many yet, that would have been better.
But yeah, interesting.
Has certainly stimulated some thought, which ulitmatly, is why im doing it really i think.
Daniel
This is one of the junctions it was suggest it didnt use my indicator, making a right turn from the south exit turning east
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.760038...
Bearing in mind it was about 10.00 on a sunny saturday morning, so was busier than shown here. And infact currently being filmed by a pair of uniformed police cars. Although there wasnt actaully a car waiting behind me at the lights.
Daniel
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.760038...
Bearing in mind it was about 10.00 on a sunny saturday morning, so was busier than shown here. And infact currently being filmed by a pair of uniformed police cars. Although there wasnt actaully a car waiting behind me at the lights.
Daniel
dhutch said:
He also mentioned right at the start of the session that is was the first session he had taken (after going out with a load of the other supervisors etc) which i sort of wish he hadnt, as it obviously effected my opinion of him before i had even had time to form one.
- Even if he had mentioned at the end that it was his first, or that he hadnt done many yet, that would have been better.
If he's been through the Observer training he should be quite up to date with things - maybe better than getting one of the ancients who can fixate on trivia. I'm a bit surprised he focussed on indicating in drive 1! Maybe as Von says you're pretty good already!- Even if he had mentioned at the end that it was his first, or that he hadnt done many yet, that would have been better.
dhutch said:
But yeah, interesting.
Has certainly stimulated some thought, which ulitmatly, is why im doing it really i think.
Good. Have a read of Roadcraft and try and watch the video/DVD - it can make things seem more understandable.Has certainly stimulated some thought, which ulitmatly, is why im doing it really i think.
Just thought I'd pop something in here. I don't know if I've picked it up from roadcraft, a more highly trained driver than me or if I'm just making it up but it does make sense:
The reason why you only indicate if a signal is required is because it makes you think about what you're doing, rather than driving on autopilot. Signally is a means of giving information to other road users and as such should be a conscious decision.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking through my bottom
The reason why you only indicate if a signal is required is because it makes you think about what you're doing, rather than driving on autopilot. Signally is a means of giving information to other road users and as such should be a conscious decision.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking through my bottom
tenohfive said:
Just thought I'd pop something in here. I don't know if I've picked it up from roadcraft, a more highly trained driver than me or if I'm just making it up but it does make sense:
The reason why you only indicate if a signal is required is because it makes you think about what you're doing, rather than driving on autopilot. Signally is a means of giving information to other road users and as such should be a conscious decision.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking through my bottom
##The reason why you only indicate if a signal is required is because it makes you think about what you're doing, rather than driving on autopilot. Signally is a means of giving information to other road users and as such should be a conscious decision.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking through my bottom
Correct, the idea is that if you signal "automatically" the examiner may conclude that your observation is lacking as you hadn't noticed that there is no-one to signal to.
Remember, this is Advanced, not DSA.
However, when in doubt signal, for example, if there is a possibility of someone approaching who you can't see until "quite late" then if the signal is already on there should be no issue. You could explain this during test and the examiner would understand that you have put some thought to the matter.
Likewise, if for example you were indicating to turn, but the car behind turns off before you do, and there is no-one else around, it would be correct cancel the signal.
Hope this helps,
Martin
dhutch said:
Basically enjoyed the lesson a lot. Not easy to 'drive as if the instructor wasnt there' and hard work to be concentrating on what there saying and teaching, as well as driving, on totaly unfamiluar roads, when there clearly famiular to the instructor. Partiularly in a car that wont idle, at 9am on a my saturday morning!
Daniel
I had my first IAM assessed drive last week too, my experience was less positive than yours though. Lets just say that my opinion of my assessor only deteriorated after he arrived and bumped my car in the car park...... twice Daniel
I hear what you say regarding familiarity, I saw three different perspectives (there was another person being assessed with us in the car) and if you think your instructors familiarity with the roads is an issue then you may have to be quite forceful in countering an opinion.
With regards indicating, I agree with Von, my difficulty with the dogmatic approach of only signal if it benefits someone is that it assumes that your observation is flawless. Not signalling has the potential to compromise safety, so in my mind you should always signal unless that itself has a potential negative impact on safety. That said I do find that if I am out on a 'hoon' (for want of a better word) that I signal less than if I am trundling around doing day to day driving.
mph999 said:
tenohfive said:
Just thought I'd pop something in here. I don't know if I've picked it up from roadcraft, a more highly trained driver than me or if I'm just making it up but it does make sense:
The reason why you only indicate if a signal is required is because it makes you think about what you're doing, rather than driving on autopilot. Signally is a means of giving information to other road users and as such should be a conscious decision.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking through my bottom
##The reason why you only indicate if a signal is required is because it makes you think about what you're doing, rather than driving on autopilot. Signally is a means of giving information to other road users and as such should be a conscious decision.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking through my bottom
Correct, the idea is that if you signal "automatically" the examiner may conclude that your observation is lacking as you hadn't noticed that there is no-one to signal to.
Remember, this is Advanced, not DSA.
However, when in doubt signal, for example, if there is a possibility of someone approaching who you can't see until "quite late" then if the signal is already on there should be no issue. You could explain this during test and the examiner would understand that you have put some thought to the matter.
Hope this helps,
Martin
Best wishes all,
Dave.
p1esk said:
Somebody (not me) applying even more thought suggested that if there seems to be nobody around initially to benefit from your signal, be ready to give a signal if they do appear. If, for example, your turn signal is already on when they appear they may think it has been left on in error. If they see the start of the signalling, they may feel more confident that it is being given correctly and can be relied upon. I'm not sure how seriously to take this, but it's just a thought....
Dave, that sounds like an IAM/Roadcraft approach, which, paradoxically, seems to go against what Von said,Von said:
What about 'signal unless it could be misleading' instead?
So you shouldn't signal "just in case" as it could mislead a previously unseen driver who won't know if you've left the signal on in error?Now I can't have got that right.
Vaux said:
p1esk said:
Somebody (not me) applying even more thought suggested that if there seems to be nobody around initially to benefit from your signal, be ready to give a signal if they do appear. If, for example, your turn signal is already on when they appear they may think it has been left on in error. If they see the start of the signalling, they may feel more confident that it is being given correctly and can be relied upon. I'm not sure how seriously to take this, but it's just a thought....
Dave, that sounds like an IAM/Roadcraft approach, which, paradoxically, seems to go against what Von said,Von said:
What about 'signal unless it could be misleading' instead?
So you shouldn't signal "just in case" as it could mislead a previously unseen driver who won't know if you've left the signal on in error?Now I can't have got that right.
vonhosen said:
I say work the odds in your favour, do whatever gets you the best results not what others think you should be doing.
I agree.Problem is, how those undergoing "Training" can achieve that.
It reminds me of a talk from a Traffic Officer to an IAM group I was once in.
His County Constabulary, as did our group, in the same county, taught signal when there was a need to communicate to others.
He told us how when he and others from his Force went to a neighbouring County Constabulary they found that Officers there were taught to always signal whether there were others about or not.
Interesting.
tenohfive said:
andy_s said:
Signal by default; if you can positively see why you shouldn't (no one to benefit for example) then don't. Simples.
Which is exactly the opposite (though conversely identical) to only signal if theres someone to benefit from it.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff