An interesting simularity in driving philosophy...

[Chris71]

So the recent threads about driving speeds, and in particular the self righteous, walking stick waving mono-speeders lead to a thought last night... Ideologically, as these people coast along at a fixed 43mph, irrespective of the actual speed limit or indeed any hazards ahead they no doubt consider themselves to be the safest thing around. It doesn't matter what the conditions are, they have complete confidence in the fact they're doing a 'safe speed' and hence safer than people trying to make more progress.

Well maybe, just maybe, this mindset has a direct parallel with the one group they'd least like to be associated with. You see, the stereotypical boy racer has a very similar arrogance. In his case of course, it's a total, unwavering conviction in his own god-like driving abilities rather than a magnetic attraction to the point on the speedo that marks out precisely 43mph, but the principle is the same: 'Because of the way I drive I'm inherently safe and people who disagree aren't.'

So next time you see one of the blue rinse brigade heading off to the shops in their 1-litre Corsas, bear in mind it may be more than just the machinery that bears a similarity to Max Power brigade.

eta: Spelling police, please ignore the title, I had a dyslexic moment...

Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 21st May 13:36

[crisisjez]

And maybe they are driving as fast as they can safely (To which they have a right to do) and the self righteous arrogance is being displayed by the person who insists that everyone drives at the speed they think is suitable.

NSL are not minimums...they are Maximums.


Just wanted to state an alternate viewpoint......


Q... Is tolerence for other road users not considered to be part of becoming an Advanced driver?

It seems not TBO.

Edited by crisisjez on Thursday 21st May 15:05

[Chris71]

crisisjez said:

And maybe they are driving as fast as they can safely (To which they have a right to do)

They can't be. Not if they're doing a fixed 42mph everywhere.

My objection isn't to people driving slowly, it's the phenomenon of 'mono-speeding'. There is absolutely no way that a fixed speed is safe in all conditions, yet some people coast along at 40mph regardless of whether they're passing a school at 3pm in a 30mph limit or going down a stretch of prime NSL in ideal conditions. Do you really condone that?

By all means drive slowly - we all have varying levels of confidence, ability and machinery at our disposal, but I can't see how people who can only manage 40mph on a main road are safe at the same speed when they reach a built up area with far more hazards. What I'm advocating is driving to the conditions, which means slowing down and speeding up as required.

Now I've hopefully cleared that up (I presume you misunderstood rather than actually intended to support those speeding in built up areas and dawdling on safer stretches?) I'll get back to the original point:

I think mature sensibler-than-thou types who think that they are inherently safe because they're driving slowly are actually closely linked to the boy racers who believe they're fundamentally flawless drivers and therefore incapable of making a mistake. Which is quite ironic as they're probably the two groups who'd least like to associate with eachother. Can you imagine some kid in a baseball cap sitting down to discuss road safety with Dorris from the local council?

[p1esk]

crisisjez said:

And maybe they are driving as fast as they can safely (To which they have a right to do) and the self righteous arrogance is being displayed by the person who insists that everyone drives at the speed they think is suitable.

NSL are not minimums...they are Maximums.


Just wanted to state an alternate viewpoint......


Q... Is tolerence for other road users not considered to be part of becoming an Advanced driver?

It seems not TBO.

Edited by crisisjez on Thursday 21st May 15:05

Oh I think it is, very much so.

I'm not properly into advanced driving, but if I find myself getting ratty with another road user (and it is extremely rare) I regard it as my failing. I'm not ignoring their mistakes (if that's what they are) but at the end of the day we should aim to work round them as best we can and not make a big deal out of it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[crisisjez]

p1esk said:

crisisjez said:

And maybe they are driving as fast as they can safely (To which they have a right to do) and the self righteous arrogance is being displayed by the person who insists that everyone drives at the speed they think is suitable.

NSL are not minimums...they are Maximums.


Just wanted to state an alternate viewpoint......


Q... Is tolerence for other road users not considered to be part of becoming an Advanced driver?

It seems not TBO.

Edited by crisisjez on Thursday 21st May 15:05

Oh I think it is, very much so.

I'm not properly into advanced driving, but if I find myself getting ratty with another road user (and it is extremely rare) I regard it as my failing. I'm not ignoring their mistakes (if that's what they are) but at the end of the day we should aim to work round them as best we can and not make a big deal out of it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

EXACTLY

[crisisjez]

Chris71 said:

crisisjez said:

And maybe they are driving as fast as they can safely (To which they have a right to do)

They can't be. Not if they're doing a fixed 42mph everywhere.

My objection isn't to people driving slowly, it's the phenomenon of 'mono-speeding'. There is absolutely no way that a fixed speed is safe in all conditions, yet some people coast along at 40mph regardless of whether they're passing a school at 3pm in a 30mph limit or going down a stretch of prime NSL in ideal conditions. Do you really condone that?

By all means drive slowly - we all have varying levels of confidence, ability and machinery at our disposal, but I can't see how people who can only manage 40mph on a main road are safe at the same speed when they reach a built up area with far more hazards. What I'm advocating is driving to the conditions, which means slowing down and speeding up as required.

Now I've hopefully cleared that up (I presume you misunderstood rather than actually intended to support those speeding in built up areas and dawdling on safer stretches?) I'll get back to the original point:

I think mature sensibler-than-thou types who think that they are inherently safe because they're driving slowly are actually closely linked to the boy racers who believe they're fundamentally flawless drivers and therefore incapable of making a mistake. Which is quite ironic as they're probably the two groups who'd least like to associate with eachother. Can you imagine some kid in a baseball cap sitting down to discuss road safety with Dorris from the local council?

Sorry, your post sends out mixed messages, you of course would not wish to make more progress in a 30 limit were they to be doing 42. Kind of fixated on that part of your post and was vizulising a country(60) lane TBO.

All I can say is its the Govt that are letting these people down by
1.. not regulating effectively and...
2.. not providing a viable alternative method of transport.

So perhaps a solution would be a more productive use of this space.

Edited by crisisjez on Thursday 21st May 15:58

[Dr Jekyll]

crisisjez said:

All I can say is its the Govt that are letting these people down by
1.. not regulating effectively and...
2.. not providing a viable alternative method of transport.

No, these people are letting everyone down by not getting their act together. For the government to dream up yet more regulations will not make monospeeders any more aware of their surroundings.

[crisisjez]

Dr Jekyll said:

crisisjez said:

All I can say is its the Govt that are letting these people down by
1.. not regulating effectively and...
2.. not providing a viable alternative method of transport.

No, these people are letting everyone down by not getting their act together. For the government to dream up yet more regulations will not make monospeeders any more aware of their surroundings.

If they were tested say 5 yearly they would have to maintain a std.
If they had a choice they may take the bus.

These are both solutions to the problem, how do you propose to solve it?.

[Chris71]

Dr Jekyll said:

crisisjez said:

All I can say is its the Govt that are letting these people down by
1.. not regulating effectively and...
2.. not providing a viable alternative method of transport.

No, these people are letting everyone down by not getting their act together. For the government to dream up yet more regulations will not make monospeeders any more aware of their surroundings.

While I do agree the government could be providing better alternatives for people who don't want to use cars, I think Dr Jekyl has hit the nail on the head.

Whether you agree with my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment about them being similar to the group they despise or not, the fact is that monospeeding with zero attention is not the 'safe and steady' approach that its practioners would probably claim.

This thread stemmed from an elderly relative of mine who's very outspoken about the evils of speeding, yet is verging on a ban for repeatedly breaking 30mph limits. According to her, it's motorcylcists in clear NSL areas who are the real villans, not little old ladies with poor eyesight doing 40mph past the local nursery.

[crisisjez]

Chris71 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

crisisjez said:

All I can say is its the Govt that are letting these people down by
1.. not regulating effectively and...
2.. not providing a viable alternative method of transport.

No, these people are letting everyone down by not getting their act together. For the government to dream up yet more regulations will not make monospeeders any more aware of their surroundings.

While I do agree the government could be providing better alternatives for people who don't want to use cars, I think Dr Jekyl has hit the nail on the head.

Whether you agree with my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment about them being similar to the group they despise or not, the fact is that monospeeding with zero attention is not the 'safe and steady' approach that its practioners would probably claim.

This thread stemmed from an elderly relative of mine who's very outspoken about the evils of speeding, yet is verging on a ban for repeatedly breaking 30mph limits. According to her, it's motorcylcists in clear NSL areas who are the real villans, not little old ladies with poor eyesight doing 40mph past the local nursery.

Perhaps you and Dr J should revisit this thread when you are old and see if you agree with your present me viewpoint.
When these people (assuming you are targetting the aged) learned to drive THERE WAS NO SPEED LIMIT (See other post) and cars were slow. They just stayed in that time, just like we all do, so I don`t think it is up to them, its up to us.
Or you can just carry on stating the obvious.

In a way though you are right, both groups need to be educated, some will respond and some won`t and with both it will be because age is a factor.

Edited by crisisjez on Thursday 21st May 17:29

[Chris71]

crisisjez said:

Perhaps you and Dr J should revisit this thread when you are old and see if you agree with your present me viewpoint.
When these people (assuming you are targetting the aged) learned to drive THERE WAS NO SPEED LIMIT (See other post) and cars were slow. They just stayed in that time, just like we all do, so I don`t think it is up to them, its up to us.
Or you can just carry on stating the obvious.

In a way though you are right, both groups need to be educated, some will respond and some won`t and with both it will be because age is a factor.

Eh? My father learned to drive when there was no speed limit and indeed was old enough to own several rather rapid cars before they brought it in and he still alters his speed depending on the conditions. But that aside, it's not an age thing - driving in a comatosed state listening to the radio or yelling at the kids in the back may lend their driving that impression, but they don't have to be old.

The comment isn't to do with age or even outright speed, it's about the fact that people don't assess risk when they're driving. I think you've now got the idea that conditions and hazzards change so I won't restate that, but the problem with the roads isn't the outright speed - high or low - but people's refusal to pay some attention and tailor it to the conditions.

And if I'm stating the obvious there, you're ignoring the obvious - fine if you're old and doddery you'll drive slower on the main roads, but there's even less excuse for speeding in 30mph zones if that's the case. Hence there is no justification for mono-speeding whatever your age or background (unless perhaps you're going so slowly that nothing represents a genuine hazzard, but we're not talking about someone doing 10mph, we're talking about a pedestrian-mashing 40mph or so usually).

[crisisjez]

Chris71 said:

crisisjez said:

Perhaps you and Dr J should revisit this thread when you are old and see if you agree with your present me viewpoint.
When these people (assuming you are targetting the aged) learned to drive THERE WAS NO SPEED LIMIT (See other post) and cars were slow. They just stayed in that time, just like we all do, so I don`t think it is up to them, its up to us.
Or you can just carry on stating the obvious.

In a way though you are right, both groups need to be educated, some will respond and some won`t and with both it will be because age is a factor.

Eh? My father learned to drive when there was no speed limit and indeed was old enough to own several rather rapid cars before they brought it in and he still alters his speed depending on the conditions. But that aside, it's not an age thing - driving in a comatosed state listening to the radio or yelling at the kids in the back may lend their driving that impression, but they don't have to be old.

The comment isn't to do with age or even outright speed, it's about the fact that people don't assess risk when they're driving. I think you've now got the idea that conditions and hazzards change so I won't restate that, but the problem with the roads isn't the outright speed - high or low - but people's refusal to pay some attention and tailor it to the conditions.

And if I'm stating the obvious there, you're ignoring the obvious - fine if you're old and doddery you'll drive slower on the main roads, but there's even less excuse for speeding in 30mph zones if that's the case. Hence there is no justification for mono-speeding whatever your age or background (unless perhaps you're going so slowly that nothing represents a genuine hazzard, but we're not talking about someone doing 10mph, we're talking about a pedestrian-mashing 40mph or so usually).

I mentioned the age thing cos you used it as an example. I do accept everything you are saying though...so what are your suggestions to resolve the problem.

I have put forward 2 and TBO instead of a discussion about the merits/demerits of both it seems that moaning about the cause is really all this thread is about.

Edited by crisisjez on Thursday 21st May 20:29

[1950trevorP]

p1esk said:

if I find myself getting ratty with another road user (and it is extremely rare) I regard it as my failing. I'm not ignoring their mistakes (if that's what they are) but at the end of the day we should aim to work round them as best we can and not make a big deal out of it.

If I may, I wish to commend you Dave - for reminding us all of that.

[p1esk]

1950trevorP said:

p1esk said:

if I find myself getting ratty with another road user (and it is extremely rare) I regard it as my failing. I'm not ignoring their mistakes (if that's what they are) but at the end of the day we should aim to work round them as best we can and not make a big deal out of it.

If I may, I wish to commend you Dave - for reminding us all of that.

Put it down to old age, and an increasingly laid back approach to things - other than the government!

Anyhow, many thanks for your kind words, Trevor; are we pals again, for the moment?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Chris71]

crisisjez said:

Chris71 said:

crisisjez said:

Perhaps you and Dr J should revisit this thread when you are old and see if you agree with your present me viewpoint.
When these people (assuming you are targetting the aged) learned to drive THERE WAS NO SPEED LIMIT (See other post) and cars were slow. They just stayed in that time, just like we all do, so I don`t think it is up to them, its up to us.
Or you can just carry on stating the obvious.

In a way though you are right, both groups need to be educated, some will respond and some won`t and with both it will be because age is a factor.

Eh? My father learned to drive when there was no speed limit and indeed was old enough to own several rather rapid cars before they brought it in and he still alters his speed depending on the conditions. But that aside, it's not an age thing - driving in a comatosed state listening to the radio or yelling at the kids in the back may lend their driving that impression, but they don't have to be old.

The comment isn't to do with age or even outright speed, it's about the fact that people don't assess risk when they're driving. I think you've now got the idea that conditions and hazzards change so I won't restate that, but the problem with the roads isn't the outright speed - high or low - but people's refusal to pay some attention and tailor it to the conditions.

And if I'm stating the obvious there, you're ignoring the obvious - fine if you're old and doddery you'll drive slower on the main roads, but there's even less excuse for speeding in 30mph zones if that's the case. Hence there is no justification for mono-speeding whatever your age or background (unless perhaps you're going so slowly that nothing represents a genuine hazzard, but we're not talking about someone doing 10mph, we're talking about a pedestrian-mashing 40mph or so usually).

I mentioned the age thing cos you used it as an example. I do accept everything you are saying though...so what are your suggestions to resolve the problem.

I have put forward 2 and TBO instead of a discussion about the merits/demerits of both it seems that moaning about the cause is really all this thread is about.

Fair play.

I suppose you could argue that the genesis of the PH rant is the fact that someone is moaning about something though! If the problem was automotive rocket science which took a combination of Stephen Hawking and Ayrton Senna to deduce then it wouldn't be so annoying that so many people drive this way.

It wasn't really my intention to provide a solution, but I guess it comes down to training and instilling the correct 'mindset'. The video hazard perception tests in the new theory test are a good start, but don't go far enough IMHO (I say that not because I'm a driving geek - although I am - but because my girlfriend was a bit of a late learner and only did so last year!) I really do think we need to make people think about their driving - enthusiasts aren't fundamentally better drivers, but I think by taking an interest in what they're doing they do become safer. I think it needs to be drilled into people that simply driving within the law isn't enough, you have to take responsibility for your actions. To that end I would suggest less or no time is spent on pure speed enforcement - at least out of town - but a lot more emphasis is put on dangerous driving. A human policeman capable of making an informed judgement as to whether your driving was dangerous - for example following too close, overtaking in the wrong areas, texting at the wheel, generally poor observation or indeed excessive speed in a hazardous environment. Of course the objection this is that one person will always be more or less lenient than another, and that's true to an extent, but no system is perfect and I think I'd rather trust a trained traffic cop than a speed camera to make that judgement.

Okay, there's nothing particularly new in the above, but it's all fundamental stuff that we could see more use of... Don't let people onto the roads unless they're safe and then don't be afraid to take them off if they're not.

Edited by Chris71 on Friday 22 May 09:43

[crisisjez]

All good stuff, but I think human nature is against us all. Without regular retesting we all modify the way we drive post test (not all for the better) so its the age old `you are only of the correct std the day you take the test` etc....

Retesting the whole driving population on a regular basis would be an impossible task but to introduce a static HA type test would very quickly flag up below average drivers. Once highlighted a compulsory retraining schedule could be allocated to be carried out within a certain timeframe and certificated, or their licence is withdrawn.

That way its not so much a retest more ongoing training and an individual who initally fails would not be `set afoot` with all the complications that would incurr.

This would be relatively low cost and would involve low grade supervision at the HA stage so there would be no staffing issues.

Most of the people on this forum have voluntarily offered themselves up for retraining, which is why they can highlight below average driving in others, TBO the only way to improve the ability of other drivers would be through retraining and this would have to be mandatory.


I have to add that together with this there does need to be a complete rethink of the UK public transport system in order to prevent the loss of freedom this system may cause.
This could result in our Taxes rising to pay for this, are you all willing to see the ultimate conclusion to your need for a higher std of driving really?

Edited by crisisjez on Friday 22 May 10:44