Speed Limiters? HGV.. cars.. whatever? How SAFE?

[All Jagged Up]

Pigeon said:

.
I agree. It seems to me that people on the open road fall into one of three categories:

1) Trucks and Auntie Doris, who do 40mph everywhere.

In the other thread - Pigeon said this.^^^^^^

As trucks have "speed limiters" -

Question: Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?


Would we have less accidents if all vehicles were fitted with these limiters?


Look forward to clean and reasoned discussion...
.

[p1esk]

All Jagged Up said:

Pigeon said:

.
I agree. It seems to me that people on the open road fall into one of three categories:

1) Trucks and Auntie Doris, who do 40mph everywhere.

In the other thread - Pigeon said this.^^^^^^

As trucks have "speed limiters" -

Question: Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?


Would we have less accidents if all vehicles were fitted with these limiters?


Look forward to clean and reasoned discussion...
.

That leaves me out then but I look forward to hearing other views.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[parapaul]

I am quite frankly amazed that the gubberment haven't done this already.

[Kozy]

Give them time. After they've limited everyone to 25mph, they'll also want control of your steering. Imagine how much fun that would be, all the little goblins in Government playing with oversize RC cars! Still, at least at 25mph, noone would EVER die.

After that they'll want control of you stereo, so that you are forced to listen to their propoganda too.

[/tin foil hat]

[madmac82]

Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?


yes, if hgvs had no limiters, they could go much faster (i know 10 points for pointing out the obvious). if pulling a full load, plus weight of the hgv, say 35-40 ton at 80mph plus, and then needed to stop suddenly........ that aint goin to happen. hgvs on the whole arnt really fitted with the best brakes in the world.

[vonhosen]

I don't find the limiter on LGVs causes me any problems when driving them.

[deeps]

All Jagged Up said:

As trucks have "speed limiters" -

Question: Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?


Would we have less accidents if all vehicles were fitted with these limiters?


Look forward to clean and reasoned discussion...
.

I think limiting HGV's to 70mph would improve safety. There are so many accidents on motorways that involve HGV drivers that have nodded off, that you have to question why? Allowing them to do 70 if they wish, I believe would alleviate that problem.

As for all vehicles being limited to 70 lessening accident rates, although it initially sounds plausible (and that's the danger) to anyone who believes in the laws of physics, I believe in practice the opposite would be true.

Just imagine the concequences of reaching 70mph on a motorway and that's it, no more power available to pass. Three lanes of traffic all side by side in each others blind spots, driving along half asleep like drones. I think vehicle spacing technology would have to go hand in hand with speed limiting, or the consequences - massive pile ups - would see the accident rate soaring.

As for controlled speed limiting on A and B roads, I could only view it as a fatal step in the wrong direction. Professional HGV drivers have to suffer a 40mph limit, but there are many roads especially during the night when they could safely be doing 50mph. The limiting of their speed in such circumstances, and ultimately their efficiency, is nothing but a pointless waste of money.

[Pigeon]

Homicidal morons who pace overtaking vehicles...

[All Jagged Up]

But why would they need a space limiter when the driver should have the self discipline to maintain a steady 2-5 second gap?


Again perhaps that's why I perhaps question the limiter itself as it can take away driver responsibility and remove skills by "lack of use" perhaps? Or lull to sense of security when real safety depends on their observation/anticipation/decision making skills?

I think I'd rather people understand the dangers of driving and bear this in mind when behind the wheel of any vehicle.

[smallgun]

I'm not certain if limiters on their own would improve safety. All they would do would be to keep you at the posted limit. You could still drive like an absolute hooligan up to the limit. What would happen if the error in the speed setting was the same as the current requirements for speedometers? In my opinion they would have to be accurate to 0 to plus 0.1% is this possible?

Having said that my SLK has a limiter and I find it very useful. I can concentrate on the hazards that surround me rather than having to check my speed continuously, however I have the choice to override it if necessary

[mp3manager]

madmac82 said:

hgvs on the whole arnt really fitted with the best brakes in the world.

That may have been true 20 years ago but modern trucks are now fitted with cutting edge brake technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW2jM2ZXQfw

[madmac82]

mp3manager said:

madmac82 said:

hgvs on the whole arnt really fitted with the best brakes in the world.

That may have been true 20 years ago but modern trucks are now fitted with cutting edge brake technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW2jM2ZXQfw

good vid, although, that is only one type of hgv, its modern, as is the trailer. 99% of the time hgv drivers dont have there own trailer, so they dont really take care of it as they do the hgv. most trailers arnt really kept in good repair. so the brakes and tyers arnt always in the best conditions. you wouldnt belive some of the states of trailers on the roads that i have seen over the past few months.

not havin a go at hgv drivers, but the company i worked for has just closed down, so we have been shipping alot of stuff out the workshop. so have seen some really bad trailers as of late.

ps. think this line of coversation is goin a little off topic, lol.

back on topic, not sure if limiters would work on all vehicles, if all vehicles were limited to 70mph, there would still be someone driving at 50-60mph making everyone have to overtake them. if you can only drive at 70mph, you may 'switch off' and not see the slower moving vehicle til it is to late to brake or avoid it as there may be no space to over take if a car is alongside you.

[dhutch]

mp3manager said:

madmac82 said:

hgvs on the whole arnt really fitted with the best brakes in the world.

That may have been true 20 years ago but modern trucks are now fitted with cutting edge brake technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW2jM2ZXQfw

Interesting isnt.
- Not sure about the lane-assist mode, Unless acompanied by a loud siron should it ever have to kick in!

The thing that i find most annoying about the limits on lorrys are the 10mile long overtakes on dual carage ways where two lorrys, both driving to there limiter pass a the rate of one mile a fortnight while a stack of cars builds up at 10ft spacing behind you and the overtaking lorry!

[GreenV8S]

All Jagged Up said:

As trucks have "speed limiters" -

Question: Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?

I recall reading that the accident figures went up, but I can't refer you to any hard figures to back this up.

It seems to me like a fundamentally bad idea. Preventing the drivers from choosing their speed discourages them from choosing a safe speed and all the observations and attention that goes into that. A driver is more likely to just sit with the throttle buried in the carpet and 'switch off'. It also removes their ability to negotiate their way past other vehicles with small changes in speed. Now they're locked in elephant races with neither driver willing to lift off and neither able to accelerate.

[p1esk]

GreenV8S said:

All Jagged Up said:

As trucks have "speed limiters" -

Question: Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?

I recall reading that the accident figures went up, but I can't refer you to any hard figures to back this up.

It seems to me like a fundamentally bad idea. Preventing the drivers from choosing their speed discourages them from choosing a safe speed and all the observations and attention that goes into that. A driver is more likely to just sit with the throttle buried in the carpet and 'switch off'. It also removes their ability to negotiate their way past other vehicles with small changes in speed. Now they're locked in elephant races with neither driver willing to lift off and neither able to accelerate.

I don't like the idea of limiters for HGVs, or anything else, but on the other hand I'm a bit concerned about large heavy vehicles travelling at high speeds, so I don't know what the best answer is.

At the same time I don't like the 'elephant racing' that the limiters produce, so would it be helpful to have the ability to over-ride the HGV limiter for a brief period to aid their overtaking?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Speed_Demon]

p1esk said:

GreenV8S said:

All Jagged Up said:

As trucks have "speed limiters" -

Question: Do speed limiters improve safety for HGVs?

I recall reading that the accident figures went up, but I can't refer you to any hard figures to back this up.

It seems to me like a fundamentally bad idea. Preventing the drivers from choosing their speed discourages them from choosing a safe speed and all the observations and attention that goes into that. A driver is more likely to just sit with the throttle buried in the carpet and 'switch off'. It also removes their ability to negotiate their way past other vehicles with small changes in speed. Now they're locked in elephant races with neither driver willing to lift off and neither able to accelerate.

I don't like the idea of limiters for HGVs, or anything else, but on the other hand I'm a bit concerned about large heavy vehicles travelling at high speeds, so I don't know what the best answer is.

At the same time I don't like the 'elephant racing' that the limiters produce, so would it be helpful to have the ability to over-ride the HGV limiter for a brief period to aid their overtaking?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Unfortunately I suspect not, as there is always the risk of the other lorry using their override when they are being overtaken (although I admit the risk of this is quite small given that lorry drivers apper courteous to each other). The other risk that it will just encourage them to overtake more and going for 56 to 70 (or whatever the number may be), is still going to take an age given they are are effectively walls trying to acclerate in to the wind with something-tons of load.

I am somewhat in support of delimiting certain lorries completely (IE more powerful lorries), but I would like to see the figure for accidents in the States before I fully get behind it (although I would think their truck safety systems aren't quite advanced?).

[Pigeon]

To prevent elephant racing, the limiters on trucks should each be fitted with a short-range beacon transmitter and a directional receiver that can detect the presence and direction of the beacons on other limiters. When the receiver detects a beacon to the right of itself, it knocks 1mph off the governed maximum setting, but when it detects a beacon to the left, it adds 1mph on. Or something of the kind.

However, the following suggests that enforcement of maintenance should be given more emphasis than enforcement of speed:

madmac82 said:

99% of the time hgv drivers dont have there own trailer, so they dont really take care of it as they do the hgv. most trailers arnt really kept in good repair. so the brakes and tyers arnt always in the best conditions. you wouldnt belive some of the states of trailers on the roads that i have seen over the past few months.

not havin a go at hgv drivers, but the company i worked for has just closed down, so we have been shipping alot of stuff out the workshop. so have seen some really bad trailers as of late.

[F i F]

I tried to figure out from the stats if the introduction of limiters had shown any noticeable improvement or worsening of the collision rate. I know Paul Smith did the same. It was impossible to draw any conclusion, partly because the methods of recording and the sorting of the data changed so much. Not sure what that means in the end.

Personally I'm against limiters full stop as it results in some people stopping thinking about one important element of control placed upon all drivers.

I'm sure this removal of responsibility results in bloody minded behaviour, one manifestation of which is elephant racing.

Also one thing which rankles is that the limit for LGVs is 60mph/100kph depending where you are, but the powers that be have limiters set to 56mph/90kph expressly so that the vehicle cannot exceed to 60/100 limit. This is fundamentally wrong imho.

[All Jagged Up]

I will admit that I think some will become over-reliant on technology and fail to think for themselves. I think we need to educate to use all this stuff effectively?

[p1esk]

All Jagged Up said:

I will admit that I think some will become over-reliant on technology and fail to think for themselves. I think we need to educate to use all this stuff effectively?

What, all of it?

We might not want to adopt all of it. Don't assume that just because some new technology becomes available, it is in our best interest to adopt it. We have to be able to make sensible use of it, and benefit from it, otherwise we should ignore it. That doesn't always happen, unfortunately.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Edited by p1esk on Thursday 28th May 08:36