Getting a better feel for car

[.blue]

Hey all,

I'm a young driver having passed just a few months ago.
I feel I've got a good grip on normal road driving but I'm keen on learning as much about cars and driving as possible and want to improve my car control and understanding of performance.

What I'd like advice about is where I can go to get a better feel for my car (1.2l Clio)? I've read extensively about various techniques and in theory know when the back end will step out of control and the basics of under/oversteer.
Is there anywhere I can go where I can just have some time in my car to experiment with it? (In a safe environment... public roads aren't very appealing).

There are places like derelict car parks and the like but it just feels like you're doing something wrong and it's as if half your concentration is on "what could happen if someone objects to this?" rather than actually concentrating on the car and especially at my age, I don't want to get into any trouble for trying any of this stuff in a public place.
Being a student I can't shell out £200 on a half-day rally course and ideally would like to do things in my car - somewhere where I can allow the car to skid without fear of hitting anything and just learn from experience on how the car reacts to various actions.

Is there anywhere I can do this without getting into too much trouble and without it costing an arm and a leg?!

Thanks

[ADJimbo]

Personally, I would reccomend contacting your local branch of RoSPA / IAM and investigating the potential of joining, taking volunteer tuition, and keeping a scout-out for some skid-pan events they may arrange (they would probably be stunned if you even took the lead and organised one, on their behalf...)

I'm not aware of any organisation who would let you practice limit-handling on a first come, first served basis - I think you will need to build up to that, and need some cash in the process...

Question begs, why do you need a better feel for the car, after a few months...?

Edited by ADJimbo on Saturday 25th April 01:06

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Hello, and welcome to PH!

I'm afraid I can't help much with places to practice, although a nice low-grip surface like a beach or grassy field might be good.

Please also be aware that being a good road driver doesn't necessarily require expertise in limit handling. On the road, observation and thinking skills are what set the best apart, but they rarely get talked about.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Just don't end up doing this.

[ADJimbo]

PMSL - Not a great idea to stuff some McD's trays under your wheels then - I learn something new, every day...

I cannot see where in Roadcraft it would advise against such action however...

[.blue]

ADJimbo said:

Personally, I would reccomend contacting your local branch of RoSPA / IAM and investigating the potential of joining, taking volunteer tuition, and keeping a scout-out for some skid-pan events they may arrange (they would probably be stunned if you even took the lead and organised one, on their behalf...)

I'm not aware of any organisation who would let you practice limit-handling on a first come, first served basis - I think you will need to build up to that, and need some cash in the process...

Question begs, why do you need a better feel for the car, after a few months...?

Edited by ADJimbo on Saturday 25th April 01:06

Thanks, any preference between RoSPA and IAM? I'm also looking into a Junior day at HPC (High Performance Club) which seems more to be lecture-orientated than actual hands-on training but I guess there's no harm in learning the theory first!

In response to your question, while I have only passed 2 months ago, I've been driving for around 8 months or so. I know this is a tiny amount of time but I feel fairly confident in the realms of road driving in normal conditions and want to take things further. I'm just going about learning things like double clutching and although I'm miles away from mastering it, heel-toe downshifting. I believe it's also a good opportunity to learn more about the mechanics of a car.

As for the MaccyD trays, you can't really blame those guys can you? Insurance for us young drivers for the average rear wheel drive cars (Honda Prelude... mmm) is pretty much just a huge string of numbers! :P Although I guess taking a sharp turn wasn't the wisest thing to do..

As for observation skills, do you think they deteriorate as time goes by after passing your L-test with most drivers? What's the best way of assessing if these are up to scratch?

[StressedDave]

.blue said:

Thanks, any preference between RoSPA and IAM? I'm also looking into a Junior day at HPC (High Performance Club) which seems more to be lecture-orientated than actual hands-on training but I guess there's no harm in learning the theory first!

The HPC day is a mix of 'lectures' - no more than 90 minutes worth on the day, and I'm only doing about 30 minutes of them, so at least you be able to have a nice after-lunch nap while I'm droning on - demonstration drives and assessed drives. It's all one-to-one stuff in the cars.

[p1esk]

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

....be aware that being a good road driver doesn't necessarily require expertise in limit handling.

It's funny you should say that, but I'm glad you have done. A few months ago I had a bit of a tough time with one or two contributors here, who were strongly advising me that I ought to do a limit handling course, failing which I would remain at serious risk of overcooking things and having a shunt. I didn't believe them, and I still don't.

Part of what they were saying was that one needed to find out where the limits were for the car we normally drive. OK, so we do that, and in then in due course we get rid of that car and acquire something else. What then? Another limit handling course to find out where we are with the new car? It doesn't sound like a realistic and practical proposition. More like another example of AD sales talk to me. Sorry and all that, but I'm still a bit sceptical.

To the OP I would say listen to the advice from the experts, and then make up your own mind when you're ready.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

.blue said:

As for observation skills, do you think they deteriorate as time goes by after passing your L-test with most drivers? What's the best way of assessing if these are up to scratch?

To be honest, I think the majority of drivers never develop any significant Observation skills. You certainly don't get taught it at L-test level, and very few people are keen enough to acquire the skills later.

The problem is, you don't know what you don't know. I'd recommend attending the HPC day and getting a demonstration from someone good. Ask for a commentary, and you'll find they're looking at and thinking about things that you didn't even know were there.


To attempt to answer your other question: IAM and RoSPA groups are run by volunteers - the quality of the individual Observer you're assigned will make more difference than which organisation you choose. RoSPA have graded pass levels and regular re-tests, IAM have more groups and a good insurance scheme. Both teach the system as described in Roadcraft, so either will provide a good foundation for further development.

Have a look around on AD-UK for more advice.

[ADJimbo]

.blue said:

ADJimbo said:

Personally, I would reccomend contacting your local branch of RoSPA / IAM and investigating the potential of joining, taking volunteer tuition, and keeping a scout-out for some skid-pan events they may arrange (they would probably be stunned if you even took the lead and organised one, on their behalf...)

I'm not aware of any organisation who would let you practice limit-handling on a first come, first served basis - I think you will need to build up to that, and need some cash in the process...

Question begs, why do you need a better feel for the car, after a few months...?

Edited by ADJimbo on Saturday 25th April 01:06

Thanks, any preference between RoSPA and IAM? I'm also looking into a Junior day at HPC (High Performance Club) which seems more to be lecture-orientated than actual hands-on training but I guess there's no harm in learning the theory first!

In response to your question, while I have only passed 2 months ago, I've been driving for around 8 months or so. I know this is a tiny amount of time but I feel fairly confident in the realms of road driving in normal conditions and want to take things further. I'm just going about learning things like double clutching and although I'm miles away from mastering it, heel-toe downshifting. I believe it's also a good opportunity to learn more about the mechanics of a car.

As for the MaccyD trays, you can't really blame those guys can you? Insurance for us young drivers for the average rear wheel drive cars (Honda Prelude... mmm) is pretty much just a huge string of numbers! :P Although I guess taking a sharp turn wasn't the wisest thing to do..

As for observation skills, do you think they deteriorate as time goes by after passing your L-test with most drivers? What's the best way of assessing if these are up to scratch?

First of all (without sounding patronising) can I applaud you at the fact that you still realise you have a lot more to learn - If the DSA turned everybody out with this attitude then the world would be a safer place, IMHO...

HPC Junior Day - take their hand off and enjoy every minute of it...

RoSPA v IAM - no real answer in my opinion, depends on your tutor / observer - my personal view is that I like to teach younger people how to make swift, safe, legal and progressive progress...

In terms of observational skills, as other people have said, a commentary will help improve your skill. Youtube is your friend as well as asking other Advanced Drivers for a commentary drive.

Have a look at www.cluddriving.co.uk as they have a solid mentoring program - as ever, let me know if you are ever in East Yorkshire and you fancy a joint drive out...

[GravelBen]

.blue said:

e...Insurance for us young drivers for the average rear wheel drive cars (Honda Prelude... mmm) is pretty much just a huge string of numbers! ...

Preludes are front wheel drive...


Personally I learnt a lot of my limit control skills sliding around on grassy paddocks and gravel back roads. But I'm in NZ where thats quite normal, in the UK (especially if you live in a city) you might struggle to find such opportunities.

Edited by GravelBen on Monday 27th April 01:42

[RT106]

Join your local motor club...

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/localGroupFinder.asp...

...and do some grass autotests. You'll learn masses about car control in a safe and legal environment without causing any damage or wear to your car or even its tyres.

[Martin A]

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

To be honest, I think the majority of drivers never develop any significant Observation skills. You certainly don't get taught it at L-test level, and very few people are keen enough to acquire the skills later.

You get taught what you are willing to pay for. If you or whoever's paying is not willing to pay more for an hour with a driving instructor than you would for an hour sitting in the back of a minicab then don't expect to learn much more than you would in the back of the cab.

Hope this helps

Best regards

Martin A

[RobM77]

I agree with all of the above, plus practise between lessons! No practical skills can be taught purely with training and lectures alone - it all comes through remembering what you've been taught and linking it in with your real world experience. Next time you're driving the car feel what's going on - pay attention to the steering feel and the balance of the car. The Clio is a great car for this, so all the messages will be there. See if you can feel where the grip is and what the weight transfer's doing etc. If you drive with this on your mind all the time you can't fail.

[GravelBen]

RobM77 said:

See if you can feel where the grip is and what the weight transfer's doing etc. If you drive with this on your mind all the time you can't fail.

Well you can, you just have to try a bit harder

Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 28th April 12:15

[Martin A]

Hi All

RobM77 said:

I agree with all of the above, plus practise between lessons! No practical skills can be taught purely with training and lectures alone - it all comes through remembering what you've been taught and linking it in with your real world experience. Next time you're driving the car feel what's going on - pay attention to the steering feel and the balance of the car. The Clio is a great car for this, so all the messages will be there. See if you can feel where the grip is and what the weight transfer's doing etc. If you drive with this on your mind all the time you can't fail.

Evidence of hundreds of thousands of people passing their driving test each year without extra practice shows practical skills can be taught purely with training and lectures alone.

I doubt that many Learner instructors teach about weight transfer and its effects and from my own experience a very few that do don't seem to know what they are talking about. So few learners know what they are feeling for or what the causes and effects are.

If someone isn't prepared to invest £200 on vastly improving their knowledge for a lifetime's driving, so less than £4 per year, they don't really want it that much. Sacrifices could be made elsewhere. For example a skilled driver on worn tyres and dampers with a standard engine and exhaust is going to be safer and quicker than someone who has invested £200 on those parts.

Hope this helps.

Best regards

Martin A

[Pugsey]

p1esk said:

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

....be aware that being a good road driver doesn't necessarily require expertise in limit handling.

It's funny you should say that, but I'm glad you have done. A few months ago I had a bit of a tough time with one or two contributors here, who were strongly advising me that I ought to do a limit handling course, failing which I would remain at serious risk of overcooking things and having a shunt. I didn't believe them, and I still don't.

Part of what they were saying was that one needed to find out where the limits were for the car we normally drive. OK, so we do that, and in then in due course we get rid of that car and acquire something else. What then? Another limit handling course to find out where we are with the new car? It doesn't sound like a realistic and practical proposition. More like another example of AD sales talk to me. Sorry and all that, but I'm still a bit sceptical.

To the OP I would say listen to the advice from the experts, and then make up your own mind when you're ready.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Rubbish. Meant in good humour p1esk. While TOTALLY agreeing with what has been already said re. all the other, highly relevant, road driving skills - anticipation, forward planning etc., etc., etc., you simply MUST at sometime learn - and by that I mean actually experience - what a car will do when it's limits are exceeded (either intentionally or otherwise). Do you REALLY want to be putting recovery skills in to operation, for the very first time, at speed on a public road when lives may depend on them? Once you've practiced those skills in safety in one car then, if you're any kind of driver, they should be transferable from car to car in the future. And if you think anticipation, awareness etc., will save you from ever being in an unpleasant situation where these more extreme skills are needed during your driving life, then I'd suggest that you don't yet fully appreciate the realities of everyday motoring.

Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 28th April 12:31

[RobM77]

I agree with Pugsey. Plus, I think that, whilst 90% of safe driving on the road doesn't relate to the dynamics of driving a car (moreso the cerebral activities of observation and planning), I think that if anyone's going to be accomplished at the remaining 10% and actually physically drive their car well, then knowing how big one's envelope is is crucial. Put simply, you can't avoid something unless you know where it is. This applies to everything from judging stopping distances to how you operate the controls.

[waremark]

Pugsey said:

.... And if you think anticipation, awareness etc., will save you from ever being in an unpleasant situation where these more extreme skills are needed during your driving life, then I'd suggest that you don't yet fully appreciate the realities of everyday motoring.

Pugsey, I don't think you can be aware of the stage of his driving life which has been reached by P1 ESK! He has survived a lot of decades of motoring, some of them no doubt over wintery Yorkshire moors, and in cars which were very much less capable than the ones most of us drive today. I suspect his car control skills are greater than he is willing to admit.

However, I do tend to be of the 'You don't need car control skills if you have the right roadcraft skills' persuasion. When I was a young driver (about 35 years ago) there were a couple of moments when I needed car control skills which I didn't have. Since I have developed a modicum of car control skills, I cannot remember needing them on the road. And I still struggle to have the feel for the car which Rob talks about.

[RobM77]

I think we've got to remember that sub standard driving doesn't mean an accident is inevitable, it just makes it more likely. The most dangerous driver I've ever sat with is well into his 60s and has never had an accident. My drive with this person last year was one of the most frightening moments of my life!! We therefore can't judge driving ability by accident rates very reliably. As I said, to judge safe driving we need to look at forward planning and observation in the main, whilst keeping the car as far from the limit as possible at all times. There's a difference between a good driver and a mere beneficiary of good fortune!