Left foot Braking

[SystemParanoia]

Hi guys,

When is the optimal time to utilise left foot braking?

u usually use it when accelerating hard out of a tight slow corner to increase grip.. kind of like a crude LSD.

but something tells me im doing it completely wrong lol.

when should it be used?

[Pannywagon]

When you need to shift weight to the front wheels.

If you're driving properly on the road, you should never need to use it.

[SystemParanoia]

well, ive gotten pretty consistent with my Heel-toe'ing and felt it was time to develop my left foot braking.


Why would you say it should never need to be used ?

[Pannywagon]

Left foot braking is normally used to shift the weight of the car to the front (especially on fwd) if you have possibly gone a little too hot into a corner. It eases understeer and lets the rear wheels do some of the steering work.

Going too hot into a corner is not really something you should ever do on a road.

TBF if you're braking on the exit of a corner I would risk saying you're probably accelerating too hard.

[Dr Jekyll]

That's before we get onto the question of whether heel and toe heel and toe is appropriate on the road, 'consistently' or otherwise!

Long thread coming up..........

[SystemParanoia]

i know im accelerating too hard out of the corner, but i feel that dragging on the brake slightly helps improve my traction and acceleration, vs feathering the throttle out of the corner at the mercy of the open diff.

i use heel toe pretty much every time i slow down, ive been doing it so long that its just a normal part of driving for me, it would take more effort for me to force myself NOT to do it.



but back to the comming in too hot..

if im comming in too hot, why would i want to continue accelerating while left foot braking, leaving me unable to downshif through the box to put me into an optimal gear to accelerate out of the corner ( if i dont end up in the armco / kittle litter that is )

[Pannywagon]

SystemParanoia said:

i know im accelerating too hard out of the corner, but i feel that dragging on the brake slightly helps improve my traction and acceleration, vs feathering the throttle out of the corner at the mercy of the open diff.

i use heel toe pretty much every time i slow down, ive been doing it so long that its just a normal part of driving for me, it would take more effort for me to force myself NOT to do it.



but back to the comming in too hot..

if im comming in too hot, why would i want to continue accelerating while left foot braking, leaving me unable to downshif through the box to put me into an optimal gear to accelerate out of the corner ( if i dont end up in the armco / kittle litter that is )

Because it is always preferable to use some level of throttle through a corner to keep the car settled.

Now, it's a long time since I did an advanced driver's course, so bear with me on this one if my language isn't exactly right.

As you approach a corner you should drive using a system, this starts with information and assesment. You then match your speed to the corner using limit points, the braking phase, then you change gear to match your speed, then you use a small amount of throttle to drive the car through the corner (not really accelerating, just letting the car drive). As the road opens you then apply throttle and accelerate away.

Now if the assesment of the corner is wrong, you may get into a situation where you are going too fast for the corner, and especially in FWD get understeer, the wrong thing to do is lift off; that will just get you a lovely dose of lift off oversteer. Instead, by maintaining pressure on the throttle, you jab the brake firmly but briefly with your left foot, you transfer weight and the front tyres dig in hopefully gaining grip while the rear tyres lose grip and possibly slide slightly helping you with getting around the corner. Any driver getting to this situation has got their planning for the corner wrong for whatever reason.

The best example of this and where I learnt to do it is in rallying, FWD rally cars don't need to use the handbrake to get round a hairpin, a little bit (read a fair amount) of left foot braking brings the back round into a drift very well. I have a photo of this happening somewhere but I really haven't got time to upload it now.

P.S - my advice is to not try this for the first time on a public road, it really is an emergency save and the last thing you want to do is find out what happens for yourself on a road.

[Dr Jekyll]

Pannywagon said:

Now if the assesment of the corner is wrong, you may get into a situation where you are going too fast for the corner, and especially in FWD get understeer, the wrong thing to do is lift off; that will just get you a lovely dose of lift off oversteer. Instead, by maintaining pressure on the throttle, you jab the brake firmly but briefly with your left foot, you transfer weight and the front tyres dig in hopefully gaining grip while the rear tyres lose grip and possibly slide slightly helping you with getting around the corner.

This is what puzzles me about left foot braking. Why is the weight transfer from braking any safer than the weight transfer from lifting off?

[Pannywagon]

Dr Jekyll said:

Pannywagon said:

Now if the assesment of the corner is wrong, you may get into a situation where you are going too fast for the corner, and especially in FWD get understeer, the wrong thing to do is lift off; that will just get you a lovely dose of lift off oversteer. Instead, by maintaining pressure on the throttle, you jab the brake firmly but briefly with your left foot, you transfer weight and the front tyres dig in hopefully gaining grip while the rear tyres lose grip and possibly slide slightly helping you with getting around the corner.

This is what puzzles me about left foot braking. Why is the weight transfer from braking any safer than the weight transfer from lifting off?

It's a more stable and progressive weight transfer and your foot is already on the throttle ready to start working it and regain control.

[Pannywagon]

Dr Jekyll said:

That's before we get onto the question of whether heel and toe heel and toe is appropriate on the road, 'consistently' or otherwise!

Long thread coming up..........

Only just spotted your post there.

Heel and toe technically speaking is not driving according to the Road Craft system as you have to overlap your braking and gear changing zones, but I do blip the throttle when I change down, matching my revs to the speed before re-engaging the clutch. It's just smoother, gentler on the drivetrain and doesn't unsettle the car (or your passengers).

[vonhosen]

Pannywagon said:

Dr Jekyll said:

That's before we get onto the question of whether heel and toe heel and toe is appropriate on the road, 'consistently' or otherwise!

Long thread coming up..........

Only just spotted your post there.

Heel and toe technically speaking is not driving according to the Road Craft system as you have to overlap your braking and gear changing zones, but I do blip the throttle when I change down, matching my revs to the speed before re-engaging the clutch. It's just smoother, gentler on the drivetrain and doesn't unsettle the car (or your passengers).

Rodcraft allows for overlapping in circumstances that require it & heel/toe is overlapping.

[Pannywagon]

vonhosen said:

Pannywagon said:

Dr Jekyll said:

That's before we get onto the question of whether heel and toe heel and toe is appropriate on the road, 'consistently' or otherwise!

Long thread coming up..........

Only just spotted your post there.

Heel and toe technically speaking is not driving according to the Road Craft system as you have to overlap your braking and gear changing zones, but I do blip the throttle when I change down, matching my revs to the speed before re-engaging the clutch. It's just smoother, gentler on the drivetrain and doesn't unsettle the car (or your passengers).

Rodcraft allows for overlapping in circumstances that require it & heel/toe is overlapping.

Scrub that question Von, have just done a quick Google and I think I found the answer anyway. So planned overlapping is fine, do you know how frustrating that is when I had to work really hard to stop overlapping only 5 years ago!

Edited by Pannywagon on Thursday 12th March 22:03

[vonhosen]

Pannywagon said:

vonhosen said:

Pannywagon said:

Dr Jekyll said:

That's before we get onto the question of whether heel and toe heel and toe is appropriate on the road, 'consistently' or otherwise!

Long thread coming up..........

Only just spotted your post there.

Heel and toe technically speaking is not driving according to the Road Craft system as you have to overlap your braking and gear changing zones, but I do blip the throttle when I change down, matching my revs to the speed before re-engaging the clutch. It's just smoother, gentler on the drivetrain and doesn't unsettle the car (or your passengers).

Rodcraft allows for overlapping in circumstances that require it & heel/toe is overlapping.

When would you overlap when driving normally at normal speeds?

Anywhere where safety calls for it as part of a planned approach (for the more dogmatic), or anywhere where you will achieve greater personal performance (for the less dogmatic).

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 12th March 22:01

[Pannywagon]

Scrub that question Von, have just done a quick Google and I think I found the answer anyway. So planned overlapping is fine, do you know how frustrating that is when I had to work really hard to stop overlapping only 5 years ago!

I learnt to heel and toe before I did any sort of driver training!

[GreenV8S]

SystemParanoia said:

When is the optimal time to utilise left foot braking?

When you know you can do it correctly and reliably, and get a performance/safety benefit.

The main benefit I can see is that by applying brakes to the undriven wheels you can counter understeer in a fwd car and counter oversteer in a rwd car. But any benefits from this would be completely outweighed by the disadvantages if you weren't able to control the amount of braking accurately.

I don't think there is likely to be any traction advantage in a 2wd car since the drag from braking the undriven wheels would surely be more than any small gains in traction from locking the diff on the driven wheels.

It's been said that you can get more traction with a rwd with an open diff by pulling the handbrake on, and I can see how in theory that should work, but I've never been able to detect the slightest benefit from that in slippery conditions.

[GravelBen]

GreenV8S said:

It's been said that you can get more traction with a rwd with an open diff by pulling the handbrake on, and I can see how in theory that should work, but I've never been able to detect the slightest benefit from that in slippery conditions.

Its more of an off-road, 1 wheel in the air kind of trick really.

[GravelBen]

SystemParanoia said:

u usually use it when accelerating hard out of a tight slow corner to increase grip.. kind of like a crude LSD.

I think you've missed the point of it - its nothing to do with traction, more for trimming the balance of cars (especially FWD) without having to lift of the gas.

The other main advantage in competition use is to avoid the wasted time in moving the right foot between pedals, but you'd have to be really good for that to be a significant factor in your times.

[shoestring7]

GreenV8S said:

SystemParanoia said:

When is the optimal time to utilise left foot braking?

When you know you can do it correctly and reliably, and get a performance/safety benefit.

The main benefit I can see is that by applying brakes to the undriven wheels you can counter understeer in a fwd car and counter oversteer in a rwd car. But any benefits from this would be completely outweighed by the disadvantages if you weren't able to control the amount of braking accurately.

Agreed, some moderns (step forward Audi) understeer like truffle pigs, esp. in the wet. Using lfb to brake up to the apex really makes a difference. I'm not talking about maximm attack stuff, just wet roundabouts. Of course, its massivly helpful if the car is a two-pedal job.

I also lfb on fast B road stuff, where one or two gears is enough. It allows a very gradual transition from 'go' to 'stop', and unsettles the car less. Think of it as if you were driving a kart.

SS7

[AnotherClarkey]

I occasionally use it on hairpins / mini roundabouts in FWD automatics - it helps to get the nose turned in (by weight transfer) and you can force the car into the correct gear for the exit by loading the throttle against the brake.

Very hard on the brakes though.

[RobM77]

vonhosen said:

Pannywagon said:

vonhosen said:

Pannywagon said:

Dr Jekyll said:

That's before we get onto the question of whether heel and toe heel and toe is appropriate on the road, 'consistently' or otherwise!

Long thread coming up..........

Only just spotted your post there.

Heel and toe technically speaking is not driving according to the Road Craft system as you have to overlap your braking and gear changing zones, but I do blip the throttle when I change down, matching my revs to the speed before re-engaging the clutch. It's just smoother, gentler on the drivetrain and doesn't unsettle the car (or your passengers).

Rodcraft allows for overlapping in circumstances that require it & heel/toe is overlapping.

When would you overlap when driving normally at normal speeds?

Anywhere where safety calls for it as part of a planned approach (for the more dogmatic), or anywhere where you will achieve greater personal performance (for the less dogmatic).

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 12th March 22:01

I've read and understood the RoadCraft, and most of it makes perfect sense but I don't generally make a habit of believing things that are written down in an old book just because they're written there and someone told me to believe it I believe in using my own intelligencec to think about things, and as such I heel and toe with every downchange because I've made a personal decision that it's safer and also kinder to my car.