How do you know if the rear is going to step out?
Discussion
And how do you know what the road surface is going to be like?
I think this question is particularly relevant on the road where you don't know what the grip is going to be like.
In truth I sometimes bring on the power fully, being confident by judging everything that the back will grip. Is that bad? From experience on and off track, the transition to oversteer in my car is quite steady and it hasn't scared me yet. I don't fear oversteer but I have a forgiving car and know what to do about it. Should I continue to drive like this or should I change to always bring the power in slowly? Because that would make things a lot slower (it's a peaky engine and needs revs to get going anyway).
I think I am conscious of the rear and, on the road, can travel faster in a FWD car because a loss of traction isn't as fatal.
I think this question is particularly relevant on the road where you don't know what the grip is going to be like.
In truth I sometimes bring on the power fully, being confident by judging everything that the back will grip. Is that bad? From experience on and off track, the transition to oversteer in my car is quite steady and it hasn't scared me yet. I don't fear oversteer but I have a forgiving car and know what to do about it. Should I continue to drive like this or should I change to always bring the power in slowly? Because that would make things a lot slower (it's a peaky engine and needs revs to get going anyway).
I think I am conscious of the rear and, on the road, can travel faster in a FWD car because a loss of traction isn't as fatal.
I have found that through having provoked my car in to a slide in the wet and dry I have a clue about the noises it makes and the way it feels right before it begins to slide.
I like to think I can read the road reasonably well however I am no driving god so I tend to enter a corner slightly slower and gradually increase power assuming I have a good view of the exit....Like I say though I am no driving god so maybe this is the wrong way to do things!
I like to think I can read the road reasonably well however I am no driving god so I tend to enter a corner slightly slower and gradually increase power assuming I have a good view of the exit....Like I say though I am no driving god so maybe this is the wrong way to do things!
I'm glad someone asked this tbh so I didn't look silly!
I've just bought my first RWD car - 07 MX5. Last night was the first time I give it a good go and the back stepped out a couple of times exiting r-bouts.
The only experience I have with rwd is karting and they seem very predicatable to me - but last night I was caught out everytime the back came out.
Like has been said - maybe I need to be more progressive with the throttle on exit so I can feel the slide more, rather than just banging on the loud peddle.
It was only a low speeds that it came out - around 40ish so I caught it no problem (although I think I over compensated as it would kick back the other way).
I know there is another thread running on loosing the back end - so don't expect a reply. But any observations would be useful to me and I'm sure the OP.
I've just bought my first RWD car - 07 MX5. Last night was the first time I give it a good go and the back stepped out a couple of times exiting r-bouts.
The only experience I have with rwd is karting and they seem very predicatable to me - but last night I was caught out everytime the back came out.
Like has been said - maybe I need to be more progressive with the throttle on exit so I can feel the slide more, rather than just banging on the loud peddle.
It was only a low speeds that it came out - around 40ish so I caught it no problem (although I think I over compensated as it would kick back the other way).
I know there is another thread running on loosing the back end - so don't expect a reply. But any observations would be useful to me and I'm sure the OP.
back stepping out on an MX5? Surely not 
What were the conditions, dry or wet? Surely it wasn't a complete surprise? Did your judgement not give a warning? Did you think you were nowhere near the back losing grip, or where you pushing on so that you felt you were in the zone, so to speak?
Not trying to catch you out with questions, just trying to get some feedback from you as to how you felt to see if the clues were there or not for you to expect some rear-end action (so to speak).
Bert
What were the conditions, dry or wet? Surely it wasn't a complete surprise? Did your judgement not give a warning? Did you think you were nowhere near the back losing grip, or where you pushing on so that you felt you were in the zone, so to speak?
Not trying to catch you out with questions, just trying to get some feedback from you as to how you felt to see if the clues were there or not for you to expect some rear-end action (so to speak).
Bert
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but a short wheel base RWD car is always going to be a high risk when it comes to oversteer. The safe answer to the OP's question is keep the car balanced on the throttle coming out of roundabouts, waiting until almost straight again before smoothly feeding in the power.
Roundabouts are the worst places I can think of for nasty surprises. The camber is usually changing quite drastically on the exits and fuel/oil spills are common too. An MX5 is going to have plenty of torque at those sorts of speeds to help flick the tail out.
It's strange - after years of owning understeering nose-heavy VWs & Audis, reading threads like this make me want to get a cheapo RWD for some tail happy fun
Roundabouts are the worst places I can think of for nasty surprises. The camber is usually changing quite drastically on the exits and fuel/oil spills are common too. An MX5 is going to have plenty of torque at those sorts of speeds to help flick the tail out.
It's strange - after years of owning understeering nose-heavy VWs & Audis, reading threads like this make me want to get a cheapo RWD for some tail happy fun
brisel said:
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but a short wheel base RWD car is always going to be a high risk when it comes to oversteer. The safe answer to the OP's question is keep the car balanced on the throttle coming out of roundabouts, waiting until almost straight again before smoothly feeding in the power.
It's strange - after years of owning understeering nose-heavy VWs & Audis, reading threads like this make me want to get a cheapo RWD for some tail happy fun
I admit (though it's not cool) to quite liking those nose heavy VWs & Audis. Wanna swap!?It's strange - after years of owning understeering nose-heavy VWs & Audis, reading threads like this make me want to get a cheapo RWD for some tail happy fun
Back to the original post.. Is it acceptable to sort of have the car at the point where it's attitude is being somewhat controlled by the throttle? Not to the point of the back stepping out, but where you feel the throttle is having an effect on the car. That's the exciting zone I want to live in, but worry about hitting an odd surface and coming a cropper. Obviously if you are doing this then the back can step out - it doing so unrecoverably is my problem. The alternative is keeping well clear of the rear end's limits, just cruising round the corner and only giving full power once in a straight line, but it isn't very fun. Or effective in a car with lots of grip but little low down torque.
Edited by Pentoman on Thursday 12th March 19:52
Swap? I'm very tempted to try it for a while! Are you referring to your Elan or the Merc? 460 bhp from my RS4 might just make you plough straight on in the corner, unless you lift off/dab the brake.... 
Is it acceptable to be at a point where you can steer the car with the throttle? Perfectly acceptable on wide open roads IMHO, less so in town. As long as you balance your proximity to the limits of adhesion in relation to the risk of getting into a sticky situation and its effect on those around you, then you'll be fine.
Is it acceptable to be at a point where you can steer the car with the throttle? Perfectly acceptable on wide open roads IMHO, less so in town. As long as you balance your proximity to the limits of adhesion in relation to the risk of getting into a sticky situation and its effect on those around you, then you'll be fine.
brisel said:
Swap? I'm very tempted to try it for a while! Are you referring to your Elan or the Merc? 460 bhp from my RS4 might just make you plough straight on in the corner, unless you lift off/dab the brake....
Is it acceptable to be at a point where you can steer the car with the throttle? Perfectly acceptable on wide open roads IMHO, less so in town. As long as you balance your proximity to the limits of adhesion in relation to the risk of getting into a sticky situation and its effect on those around you, then you'll be fine.
Christ the elan couldn't be further removed from the rs4. The thing is a danger, you have to fit crummy wobbly dunlop high profile tyres for the series and it has a 1mm wheelbase so when it swaps ends it's very sudden and doesn't drift well (I tried). Throw in the worst steering feel on the planet, possibly to do with the tyres, and jittery stiff suspension, and I want to avoid it!! Then again maybe it's teething troubles, I have only tested it once and castle coombe is apparently a bumpy track, not that you could tell in the Merc. No, the Merc is like a pleasant teacup ride by contrast. Well except when a rear tyre sidewall explodes on the chicane at castle coombe.Is it acceptable to be at a point where you can steer the car with the throttle? Perfectly acceptable on wide open roads IMHO, less so in town. As long as you balance your proximity to the limits of adhesion in relation to the risk of getting into a sticky situation and its effect on those around you, then you'll be fine.
Makes you wonder why I'm nervous...?
A swap is probably best avoided for a huge number of obvious reasons, and of course the fact the Elan isn't mine to lend
. But if we meet in the future then let's do it. RS4s sound good.Mark H 1984 said:
I'm glad someone asked this tbh so I didn't look silly!
I've just bought my first RWD car - 07 MX5. Last night was the first time I give it a good go and the back stepped out a couple of times exiting r-bouts.
The only experience I have with rwd is karting and they seem very predicatable to me - but last night I was caught out everytime the back came out.
Like has been said - maybe I need to be more progressive with the throttle on exit so I can feel the slide more, rather than just banging on the loud peddle.
It was only a low speeds that it came out - around 40ish so I caught it no problem (although I think I over compensated as it would kick back the other way).
I know there is another thread running on loosing the back end - so don't expect a reply. But any observations would be useful to me and I'm sure the OP.
Silly question but have you had the MX5 aligned yet? If not get it booked in soon, it's meant to be the best money (£90ish) you'll spend on the car. (Mine's booked in at Wheels in Motion in a couple of weeks)I've just bought my first RWD car - 07 MX5. Last night was the first time I give it a good go and the back stepped out a couple of times exiting r-bouts.
The only experience I have with rwd is karting and they seem very predicatable to me - but last night I was caught out everytime the back came out.
Like has been said - maybe I need to be more progressive with the throttle on exit so I can feel the slide more, rather than just banging on the loud peddle.
It was only a low speeds that it came out - around 40ish so I caught it no problem (although I think I over compensated as it would kick back the other way).
I know there is another thread running on loosing the back end - so don't expect a reply. But any observations would be useful to me and I'm sure the OP.
The best way to find out when the rear of your car is likely to slide is to go a track day where you can safely find the cars limit and learn how it feels at that point, If you stay short of that point on the road you should not put yourself or other road users at risk. Some form of skid control training in a controlled environment would be a great help. The internet is your best friend to find something local too you although I would recommend the one at Slverstone.
Reading the road conditions cannot really be taught you have to learn through experience.
Reading the road conditions cannot really be taught you have to learn through experience.
Firefox1 said:
The best way to find out when the rear of your car is likely to slide is to go a track day where you can safely find the cars limit and learn how it feels at that point, If you stay short of that point on the road you should not put yourself or other road users at risk. Some form of skid control training in a controlled environment would be a great help. The internet is your best friend to find something local too you although I would recommend the one at Slverstone.
Reading the road conditions cannot really be taught you have to learn through experience.
I think some skid control training would be a good idea. I did a couple of track days and a Mark Hales driving course but it was mainly the additional unknowns of being on the road on unfamiliar and changing surfaces that bugged me.Reading the road conditions cannot really be taught you have to learn through experience.
The object of the skid school is show you what situations will cause a car slide and how to avoid getting into such a situation. The control of the resulting slide is secondary and it's only practice in an environment away from the public roads that will allow you to perfect those skills. If you want to learn the skills for different surfaces maybe a rally school would suit you more. There are of course a number of companies offering different experiences, they are much better presents from family and friends than socks and ties.
My rule of thumb is to only put any serious power down when the steering wheel is straight. If you make sure you follow this simple rule you should not go far wrong. Keeping your hand at quarter to three on the wheel is the best way to make sure you know where your hands are. If you have to move them anywhere else on the wheel whilst turning, no OTT power application.When coming off a roundabout only gentle power should be applied and has already been said, be progressive otherwise you will induce a skid. Drifting out the back end is ok when you know it is going to happen and you have the skills to manage it, letting it happen anytime will cause you to hit someone else or something with potential costs, or just look stupid.
Pentoman said:
I think I am conscious of the rear and, on the road, can travel faster in a FWD car because a loss of traction isn't as fatal.
I'm not sure that a loss of traction in a RWD car is "fatal"! Surely you'll just get a bit of oversteer which is easily corrected?In answer to your original question, you just feel the grip through your senses. At any point in any car you should be able to state how much percentage grip any of the four wheels have got (or at least front/rear). If a driver didn't know this, it'd be impossible to drive on the road safely to anywhere near an advanced level, as you wouldn't have a clue what your margin of safety was.
softtop said:
My rule of thumb is to only put any serious power down when the steering wheel is straight. If you make sure you follow this simple rule you should not go far wrong. Keeping your hand at quarter to three on the wheel is the best way to make sure you know where your hands are. If you have to move them anywhere else on the wheel whilst turning, no OTT power application.When coming off a roundabout only gentle power should be applied and has already been said, be progressive otherwise you will induce a skid. Drifting out the back end is ok when you know it is going to happen and you have the skills to manage it, letting it happen anytime will cause you to hit someone else or something with potential costs, or just look stupid.
Decent advice.
It DOES depend on the ratio of torque-to-grip though...with the S2000 if I'm driving it smoothly I'm REALLY pushing-on when the back-end does let go, so it's nice to be a bit 'provocative' from time to time - braking deep, applying throttle too early or too much...and even then in the dry I'll often only get the rears 'loading up' rather than letting go. In the wet it's rather easier, but becomes a lot more surface-dependent, IYSWIM.
But I've owned the car for 3 years and 20k miles, so I've had time to learn it...no way I'd jump into an unfamiliar car and do stuff like that (well, except maybe something telepathic and FR like a Caterfield).
Back to the OP's question...varies from car to car (and where you're sitting in relation to the rear-wheels)...and from tyre to tyre, to a degree. Typically you'll feel the tyres 'load up' first - it feels like the back-end is going but if you hold it not push the car will describe a perfect arc unsullied by understeer or oversteer. Softer sidewalls give more of this (naturally) than stiffer or lower-profile ones.
As for the feeling itself...a (usually very subtle) 'lurch' from the rear - a slight non-linearity in the loading up of the rear-tyre versus the front-tyre, or a slight increase in the yaw-moment (the rate the car feels like it's turning...you'll feel this through your seat and probably through the behaviour of the steering if you're holding the wheel lightly, as you should be) which wasn't due to extra steering input.
Above all, DO NOT practice anywhere where there's other traffic or there's kerbs/furniture which could ruin your day.
Its already been said, best to practice your cars limits at a track day. Start slow and build up. Dont get too cocky straight away or you will go past the starting to skid moment to doing a full spin before you can blink When you feel it start to go, just feather the throttle or just button off if you need too and dont over correct it. I wouldnt want to practice this in your P&J on the streets no way!!
When you feel it start to go, just feather the throttle or just button off if you need too and dont over correct it. I wouldnt want to practice this in your P&J on the streets no way!!Rear wheel drive, my way, not sure it's the right way!
If I am entering a bend close to what I believe is going to set the back out, as the steering lightens ease off the throttle to even revs to match speed and gently turn towards opposite lock, if the car doesn't start to react, gently turn in some more, then as the steering lightens the other way, gently straighten the wheel back out.
If I am entering a bend close to what I believe is going to set the back out, as the steering lightens ease off the throttle to even revs to match speed and gently turn towards opposite lock, if the car doesn't start to react, gently turn in some more, then as the steering lightens the other way, gently straighten the wheel back out.
I think it's worth mentioning that the back/front end of a car doesn't 'step' out really. I'm not trying to be pedantic and know-it-all, but it's something worth thinking about. The limit isn't a line that you cross, it's an area that you work in. You should be able to choose which part you stay in (what's on my mind when cornering on track for instance). Sometimes, a car will go from under to over the limit very quickly, but that's just like a boat capsizing without it leaning first: something's wrong for it to happen (poor driving or something on the road). If you're gentle and sympathetic with the car you should gently walk into this zone, explore it a bit and leave again without any drama. As proof of this, on track or on a rally stage every driver of any decent ability will be inside this zone in every corner for hours on end. If you go under or over the limit and the lap time will suffer. We're talking about the road of course, but what I mean is that the limit should be a friendly, not a scary place.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 19th March 10:34
If the rear steps out , ie a sudden movement then its due to either too much gas too harshly or lifting off too sharply. All driving should be done with smoooooth movements and inputs.
It sounds odd but the more proficient you get at driving the less exciting it becomes as you generally are on top of every situations. I sometimes miss the heart in the mouth moments my earier cack handed driving used to create as now I am proficient i never let situations like that develop.
It can happen of course if you hit oil etc but generally if you stay smooth you won't experience any 'stepping out'
It sounds odd but the more proficient you get at driving the less exciting it becomes as you generally are on top of every situations. I sometimes miss the heart in the mouth moments my earier cack handed driving used to create as now I am proficient i never let situations like that develop.
It can happen of course if you hit oil etc but generally if you stay smooth you won't experience any 'stepping out'
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