New to performance cars, what would you recommend?

[ben@fareham]

On the verge of buying a kit car which will be by far the fastest car I have ever owned and rear wheel drive, of which I have no experience of. My only experience of a rear wheel drive was in a BMW 3 series which I managed to almost spin going round a simple corner and that was with traction control ON! Thats not to say I am a hopeless driver but just not much experience with rear wheel drives.

Anyway, I was wondering should I get some tuition on driving rear wheel cars, or any type for that matter, 'enthusiastically' and what is available? I have heard of IAM and advanced driving courses but not what is involved. Should I just start with the Roadcraft police driving book or would I be better of going on a few track days with the new car before I take it on the road?

Thanks
Bne

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

An IAM or RoSPA course won't teach you anything about limit handling, but it will give you the skills to avoid most of those situations. If you experience a skid on a public road then something has already gone wrong - better to work on the real problem first rather than just on managing the results.

After that, limit handling is probably best learned from an instructor - several previous threads here have discussed some names you might want to consider.

[Chris71]

Anything really - just build up gently. Know when you can explore your limits a little (preferably on track, failing that wet T-junctions or very quiet mini roundabouts ) and don't push them when there's poor visibility, on-comming traffic or anything to hit.

As for the car - a well setup Lotus Seven type car with sensible levels of power is about as forgiving as anything you'll drive. In terms of mass produced cars the MX5 keeps coming up on PH for a reason - they're very good too.

[ben@fareham]

I agree, something did go wrong when I had the skid! I think because I am used to a front wheel drive car I took the corner at the normal speed I would and accelerated out of the corner - but in the BMW this all went horrible wrong. Although the BM didnt have any more power than my car it still kicked the back end out which I wasnt expecting and snaked up the road for a bit until parking neatly on a grass verge on the other side of the road! So you see my concern and I feel my Seat Leon will be more forgiving of bad driving than any kit car??

Having driven approx. 150k miles in the last 6 years, and like a lot of drivers, I assume I am pretty good and pretty safe but though it would be worth chekcing/testing myself before I end up in a ditch somewhere! I have got a skid pan booked in March so that may help re. rear wheel drive skid control.

[patmahe]

I bought an elise a couple of years back and it has thought me more about driving than anything else I've done. Seriously the best way to educate yourself is to get something that goes back to basics and lets you feel whats happening.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

I think you might be falling into the trap that plagues Advanced Driving - you're mixing up car control with road driving.

I'm not saying that good road driving can't involve elements of car control, just that simply knowing how to control a car doesn't make you a good driver. For evidence, see this thread on bad passenger experiences.

[clk55pete]

I suggest you choose some instruction focussed around limit handling.

I've done these and can recomend them:

http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/pricing.htm
http://www.driverdp.com/
http://www.carlimits.com/

They are all slightly different but great fun.

[RobM77]

clk55pete said:

I suggest you choose some instruction focussed around limit handling.

I've done these and can recomend them:

http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/pricing.htm
http://www.driverdp.com/
http://www.carlimits.com/

They are all slightly different but great fun.

Once you've done that I'd highly recommend a day of one-to-one road tuition with someone like Hugh Noblett at Cadence. He's used to very powerful twitchy cars, especially Caterhams, and is a good coach and all round enthusiast.

The best advice I can give on here is to drive with sensitivity and feel the grip and balance as much as possible. Even something like a powerful kit car or Caterham will be telling you it's about to bite your head off long before it actually does (if it's set up right that is...) - you just need to be sensitive to it and drive sympathetically. Technique is important, as is restraint etc, but the vast majority of "offs" can be avoided if you simply understand where the limit is, what affects it and know what's going on between the tyre and tarmac. That's why I put Pete's post up there first - someone like Don Palmer will teach you that - but don't just have a ball driving sideways a lot, listen to the car as intently as you can whilst on the course and you'll begin to understand what it's saying to you.

[D5ACT]

Ben

You're predicament is a nice one to be in. I have owned a string of BMW's and am hooked on rear wheel action.

I agree that getting some instruction to get the most out of your car would be beneficial.

There is a difference to driving fast and safely on road and driving fast on a track.

Roadcraft is a great starting point though like most of the driving manuals it needs to practised and perfected on road.

Depending on your location I could recommend a great training organisation. www.driveraction.co.uk.

Make sure you ask for Margret. I know may sound like the name of your best mates mum but this is one lady that knows how to drive.

I had a half day course, which was tailored to my requirements. I felt that I wanted more car control when cornering. After I had shown her my current level of ability it was time for Marge to do a demo drive. Lets just say I was left gob smacked. You know when you watch Gordon Ramsey knocking up a good meal and it looks so easy. Well it was like that.

Seriously look them up.

My choice would be a BMW E30 M3. Real world performance that will put a smile on your face on road or track.

Laters

Chris

[blackburnbmw]

ben@fareham said:

I agree, something did go wrong when I had the skid! I think because I am used to a front wheel drive car I took the corner at the normal speed I would and accelerated out of the corner - but in the BMW this all went horrible wrong. Although the BM didnt have any more power than my car it still kicked the back end out which I wasnt expecting and snaked up the road for a bit until parking neatly on a grass verge on the other side of the road! So you see my concern and I feel my Seat Leon will be more forgiving of bad driving than any kit car??

Having driven approx. 150k miles in the last 6 years, and like a lot of drivers, I assume I am pretty good and pretty safe but though it would be worth chekcing/testing myself before I end up in a ditch somewhere! I have got a skid pan booked in March so that may help re. rear wheel drive skid control.

Which BMW "snakes up the road a bit" with the traction control on???? My 330ci just about stops dead the moment the dash light comes on.

[ben@fareham]

The back end had already gone so the 'snaking up the road' was really me trying to correct it! It was a few years back, but I think it was a bog standard 318.

[crisisjez]

Sounds to me like you are already half way there fella. In the old days we all had to drive RWD motors and learned the hard way about oversteer. Sounds like you have too, and the fact you still remember the lesson you learned 3 years ago means you are less likely to repeat the mistake.
With that in mind and a sensible approach to ownership you should be quite safe, however any car limit type course will improve your skills in the awareness and understanding of the forces in action and an AD course would help to reduce the possibility of you needing it.

Edited by crisisjez on Tuesday 10th March 19:31

[Rotary Madness]

I found paranoia worked best to stop me crashing rwd cars. go find an empty carpark/wide road etc at night, and preferably in the damp so its easier to break traction. Next just go and get your car to try and slide, and just get used to it. Once you've learnt how to control it, you can spend the rest of your days thinking on every corner its about to step out and kill me, just like i do

Probably not the most relaxing way to drive, but it keeps your mind focused, and when/if it does step out, you are ready for it

[tenohfive]

Roadcraft is worth reading but won't teach you about how your car handles. In just about any chapter where theres variations, it'll say, "refer to your vehicle handbook for advice..." etc so whilst worth reading in itself, it won't teach you very much about how to control your car.