Why do I prefer some softer cars?
Discussion
I would like some help as to why I enjoy driving cars that typically you aren't "supposed" to enjoy, and conversely I don't enjoy cars that other people would really like. I'll give some examples and hopefully you can give some insight into why this is and therefore help me choose better cars in the future.
To begin, my secondary car is a Merc 190E 2.5-16, this is the cosworth variant which Brundle described as the best handling saloon car ever or something. So you would think that I would enjoy it. I've had it 3 years and did 2 track days in it. And while I do think it's balanced, stable and has much grip I don't find it anything like as eager and willing to dive into every bend as...
.. my Peugeot 206, which is my everyday car. This is a Peugeot so is very keen in the bends if a bit softly sprung. It's not as fast as the Mercedes and the suspension is too bouncy, but you can get nearer to 100% more easily and really think you're getting the best from the tyres. It's more fun, and really you grin a lot more than in the Mercedes. On a track however it would be no good I am sure!
So why is that? I wonder if it is the lack of feedback in the Mercedes' recirculating-ball steering vs rack-and-pinion in the Peugeot? I realise it could be FWD vs RWD, but having raced 2 stroke karts I'm not too uncomfortable with RWD. If/when the Mercedes' rear steps out, which I don't do on purpose, then in the dry I find it's incredibly stable and never snappy. The remaining possibility I identify is that I am unsure about the stiff suspension on the Mercedes- the fact is the body doesn't move around with you, which is disconcerting and I am unsure what the body is doing and whether it will lose grip soon. Maybe because I raced karts I am not used to suspension! I am quite nervous though so think I like some safety nets. I find modern stiffly sprung cars with electronic safety aids like a new Audi A3 to be fast but not very fun and feelsome. Conversely I quite enjoy my family's soft 200,000 mile Mk3 Golf even though it is awful handling by all accounts.
Maybe the Mercedes is too quick for me to enjoy on the road. If this is the case then how do you get to a point of enjoying something but being happy within your limits too? Can you say why else might it be I prefer the 206 down a twisty road inspite of its lower stability and lower levels? I'm relatively young at 26 and it's my first performance car. I've had one day's tuition at Anglesey with Mark Hales.
I also preferred the drive of my old car, which was a 190E as well but a soft and unsporting 2.0 model. I think I liked the fact that the body rolls and gives you a feeling of how much you're turning and you can then build up the grip slowly. With the cosworth model there isn't that feeling of slowly approaching the grip limits, it seems a lot more likely to snap although it's not a snappy car in the tradition definition. I do appreciate some stiff cars but only if they've got good feel through the controls.
Please help!
Russell
To begin, my secondary car is a Merc 190E 2.5-16, this is the cosworth variant which Brundle described as the best handling saloon car ever or something. So you would think that I would enjoy it. I've had it 3 years and did 2 track days in it. And while I do think it's balanced, stable and has much grip I don't find it anything like as eager and willing to dive into every bend as...
.. my Peugeot 206, which is my everyday car. This is a Peugeot so is very keen in the bends if a bit softly sprung. It's not as fast as the Mercedes and the suspension is too bouncy, but you can get nearer to 100% more easily and really think you're getting the best from the tyres. It's more fun, and really you grin a lot more than in the Mercedes. On a track however it would be no good I am sure!
So why is that? I wonder if it is the lack of feedback in the Mercedes' recirculating-ball steering vs rack-and-pinion in the Peugeot? I realise it could be FWD vs RWD, but having raced 2 stroke karts I'm not too uncomfortable with RWD. If/when the Mercedes' rear steps out, which I don't do on purpose, then in the dry I find it's incredibly stable and never snappy. The remaining possibility I identify is that I am unsure about the stiff suspension on the Mercedes- the fact is the body doesn't move around with you, which is disconcerting and I am unsure what the body is doing and whether it will lose grip soon. Maybe because I raced karts I am not used to suspension! I am quite nervous though so think I like some safety nets. I find modern stiffly sprung cars with electronic safety aids like a new Audi A3 to be fast but not very fun and feelsome. Conversely I quite enjoy my family's soft 200,000 mile Mk3 Golf even though it is awful handling by all accounts.
Maybe the Mercedes is too quick for me to enjoy on the road. If this is the case then how do you get to a point of enjoying something but being happy within your limits too? Can you say why else might it be I prefer the 206 down a twisty road inspite of its lower stability and lower levels? I'm relatively young at 26 and it's my first performance car. I've had one day's tuition at Anglesey with Mark Hales.
I also preferred the drive of my old car, which was a 190E as well but a soft and unsporting 2.0 model. I think I liked the fact that the body rolls and gives you a feeling of how much you're turning and you can then build up the grip slowly. With the cosworth model there isn't that feeling of slowly approaching the grip limits, it seems a lot more likely to snap although it's not a snappy car in the tradition definition. I do appreciate some stiff cars but only if they've got good feel through the controls.
Please help!
Russell
Its an interesting difference between softer and stiffer cars, having learnt a lot of my car control in softly sprung cars (often on gravel) its taken me a while to adjust to firmer suspension now that I have more performance-oriented cars.
I think the biggest difference I found is being in the habit of trail-braking to get a softer car turned in properly, which just causes understeer in the stiffer cars if you do it to the same degree.
The softer cars do make weight transfer more obvious and its fun to play around with that, whereas stiffer cars are more precise in their handling so you don't need to use the weight transfer as much.
I don't think I've explained that very well but hopefully it makes some sense? ie you won't find the 190 as rewarding if you're using driving techniques learnt in soft fwd hatches rather than adapting your driving to the car.
I think the biggest difference I found is being in the habit of trail-braking to get a softer car turned in properly, which just causes understeer in the stiffer cars if you do it to the same degree.
The softer cars do make weight transfer more obvious and its fun to play around with that, whereas stiffer cars are more precise in their handling so you don't need to use the weight transfer as much.
I don't think I've explained that very well but hopefully it makes some sense? ie you won't find the 190 as rewarding if you're using driving techniques learnt in soft fwd hatches rather than adapting your driving to the car.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 24th February 00:38
Pentoman said:
Yes that does make sense... so how did you adjust to more stiff cars and gain confidence?
Practise? To be honest I'm still adjusting myself, learning to stay off the brakes and trust the front-end grip and balance.
More experienced drivers (I'm younger than you!) may be able to give more useful advice.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 24th February 21:45
Softer cars generally give more obvious feedback about what's going on, so most drivers prefer them. It's a well known thing in racing teams that drivers usually prefer the car softer than is ideal for the best laptimes. Soft cars also respond in a more lazy way, whereas stiffer cars are sharper.
It's also a comfort thing. I prefer driving my Elise S2 111S to a stripped out S1 Elise. With less discomfort one can concentrate on the driving more, much like sone gets more out of a concert if the seats are comfortable and the auditorium is quiet. In a similar way, when I race I forceably detach myself from the noise and battering I'm getting so I'm more in tune with the car - otherwise I'd just feel like a passenger.
It's also a comfort thing. I prefer driving my Elise S2 111S to a stripped out S1 Elise. With less discomfort one can concentrate on the driving more, much like sone gets more out of a concert if the seats are comfortable and the auditorium is quiet. In a similar way, when I race I forceably detach myself from the noise and battering I'm getting so I'm more in tune with the car - otherwise I'd just feel like a passenger.
RobM77 said:
Softer cars generally give more obvious feedback about what's going on, so most drivers prefer them. It's a well known thing in racing teams that drivers usually prefer the car softer than is ideal for the best laptimes. Soft cars also respond in a more lazy way, whereas stiffer cars are sharper.
It's also a comfort thing. I prefer driving my Elise S2 111S to a stripped out S1 Elise. With less discomfort one can concentrate on the driving more, much like sone gets more out of a concert if the seats are comfortable and the auditorium is quiet. In a similar way, when I race I forceably detach myself from the noise and battering I'm getting so I'm more in tune with the car - otherwise I'd just feel like a passenger.
Very good points which do make sense. So perhaps I'm not abnormal.It's also a comfort thing. I prefer driving my Elise S2 111S to a stripped out S1 Elise. With less discomfort one can concentrate on the driving more, much like sone gets more out of a concert if the seats are comfortable and the auditorium is quiet. In a similar way, when I race I forceably detach myself from the noise and battering I'm getting so I'm more in tune with the car - otherwise I'd just feel like a passenger.
Was driving some racing simluations on the PC and it occured to me that a lot of the problem is knowing how long the delay will be between turning the wheel and the car turning into the corner and where it will in fact end up going. It's knowing how the car is going to settle into the bend and getting it timed right. I raced go karts semi-successfully for a few years at a really young age and had no problem, probably what has happened is that I can only deal with 'zero slack' which you only find in a go kart. I find a stiff grippy difficult to deal with because on the one hand it's like a go kart but on the other it isn't and is hiding a lot of weight which you don't know how it's going to 'come out'.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff