Steering while stationary

[Dr Jekyll]

I was always told that turning the wheel when stationary damaged the mechanism. Now that power steering is almost universal this practice seems very common.

Does it really damage anything? If so, is it just accelerated wear and tear or can it actually break something?

[OllieWinchester]

It just puts far more load on the PAS system, and scrubs your tyres. Best way to demonstrate is in a car with no PAS, try steering while stationary, then try the same whilst rolling ever so slightly.

[The Black Flash]

One of my pet hates, this.
It isn't just the PAS system, it puts more load on the various suspension joints as well. The geometry changes as the wheels turn, and with the wheels effectively fixed in place, the forces make the whole car move instead of just the wheels. Try it and watch what the suspension does, you can see the strain everything is under.

Dunno how much actual harm it does though - I imagine it would just make things go floppy quicker?

[Vaux]

I've seen/heard a front tyre on a Pugeot explode in Tescos car park with the driver dry steering.

[MDO]

On a similar note:-Common method of teaching pull-push is to stack 2 glossy magazines under each front wheel so a learner can dry steer to their hearts content while deeply ingraining the technique of steering.

[p1esk]

Vaux said:

I've seen/heard a front tyre on a Peugeot explode in Tescos car park with the driver dry steering.

Ah well, I don't do dry steering so it weren't me!

Presumably the components of steering and suspension systems are designed to cope with the loads produced by dry steering without actually breaking anything, but dry steering seems bound to increase the wear rate on tyres and steering/suspension joints, thus shortening their life.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[deviant]

The Black Flash said:

One of my pet hates, this.
It isn't just the PAS system, it puts more load on the various suspension joints as well. The geometry changes as the wheels turn, and with the wheels effectively fixed in place, the forces make the whole car move instead of just the wheels. Try it and watch what the suspension does, you can see the strain everything is under.

Dunno how much actual harm it does though - I imagine it would just make things go floppy quicker?

Are the forces generated any greater than the forces generated by something like steering and braking at the same time...all sorts of load being applied then?

[Jungles]

deviant said:

The Black Flash said:

One of my pet hates, this.
It isn't just the PAS system, it puts more load on the various suspension joints as well. The geometry changes as the wheels turn, and with the wheels effectively fixed in place, the forces make the whole car move instead of just the wheels. Try it and watch what the suspension does, you can see the strain everything is under.

Dunno how much actual harm it does though - I imagine it would just make things go floppy quicker?

Are the forces generated any greater than the forces generated by something like steering and braking at the same time...all sorts of load being applied then?

I'd like to think back to driving a car without PAS.

You have to be very strong to be able to dry-steer in a non-PAS car. But braking and steering is never really a problem in a non-PAS car. The load isn't big at all.

So translating that to a PAS car: while it's tempting to just dry-steer in a PAS car, there is a huge amount of hidden load applied to steering mechanisms. Obviously they are designed to cope, just as other parts of the car are designed to cope with daily abuse of bad driving, but it's needless and avoidable wear and tear.

[The Black Flash]

Jungles said:

I'd like to think back to driving a car without PAS.

You have to be very strong to be able to dry-steer in a non-PAS car. But braking and steering is never really a problem in a non-PAS car. The load isn't big at all.

It's one of the first things I remember about learning to drive (without PAS) - you had to be rolling a little before you could steer easilly.

I'm not very good at explaining why, alas. Best way is to do it and observe what happens to the car and suspension - the tensions built up as the geometry changes in response to the wheels turning are obvious.

As far as the actual loads caused, I have no idea. It just seems lazy to me.

Edited by The Black Flash on Wednesday 4th February 10:29

[deviant]

I agree it is lazy hence why I dont do it and if people spent a bit of time learning how to park and where the corners of their car are they wouldnt need to dry steer believing they dont have space to move.

Just thought I would ask is all

[RobM77]

Just really mechanically unsympathetic. Track rod ends, tyres and steering rack take a real beating doing this and it's completely unnecessary in 99% of occasions. I've never done it in 15 years of driving and not been disadvantaged much as a result.

[p1esk]

RobM77 said:

Just really mechanically unsympathetic. Track rod ends, tyres and steering rack take a real beating doing this and it's completely unnecessary in 99% of occasions. I've never done it in 15 years of driving and not been disadvantaged much as a result.

It seems to me that the general level of mechanical understanding (and mechanical sympathy) is now much lower amongst the driving population than it was 40-50 years ago. In these days of almost universal power steering it is easy to wind the steering from lock to lock, and lots of people seem to do it - including people in the motor trade - who you might hope would know better, but they just don't seem to care about these things.

The forces on the mechanical components are greatly reduced by just having a small amount to vehicle movement, so it is quite easy to remove most of the load on the mechanical bits if one can be bothered to think about doing so.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[RobM77]

p1esk said:

RobM77 said:

Just really mechanically unsympathetic. Track rod ends, tyres and steering rack take a real beating doing this and it's completely unnecessary in 99% of occasions. I've never done it in 15 years of driving and not been disadvantaged much as a result.

It seems to me that the general level of mechanical understanding (and mechanical sympathy) is now much lower amongst the driving population than it was 40-50 years ago. In these days of almost universal power steering it is easy to wind the steering from lock to lock, and lots of people seem to do it - including people in the motor trade - who you might hope would know better, but they just don't seem to care about these things.

The forces on the mechanical components are greatly reduced by just having a small amount to vehicle movement, so it is quite easy to remove most of the load on the mechanical bits if one can be bothered to think about doing so.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Especially if you extend mechanical sympathy to dynamic sympathy. A large number of people seem to lean heavily on the brakes when stopping, to levels that make me as a passenger uncomfortable, and also brake when there's really no need to (for example, driving up to red lights and then braking to a standstill in a short space of time). I can only assume it's because modern cars remove the driver from the process of driving too much, which is the reason behind my careful choice of cars

[Jungles]

RobM77 said:

Especially if you extend mechanical sympathy to dynamic sympathy. A large number of people seem to lean heavily on the brakes when stopping, to levels that make me as a passenger uncomfortable, and also brake when there's really no need to (for example, driving up to red lights and then braking to a standstill in a short space of time). I can only assume it's because modern cars remove the driver from the process of driving too much, which is the reason behind my careful choice of cars

I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, modern cars remove the driver from the process of thinking about their driving. IMHO, people tend to over-drive their cars - ie. driving without mechanical sympathy.

[deviant]

Jungles said:

RobM77 said:

Especially if you extend mechanical sympathy to dynamic sympathy. A large number of people seem to lean heavily on the brakes when stopping, to levels that make me as a passenger uncomfortable, and also brake when there's really no need to (for example, driving up to red lights and then braking to a standstill in a short space of time). I can only assume it's because modern cars remove the driver from the process of driving too much, which is the reason behind my careful choice of cars

I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, modern cars remove the driver from the process of thinking about their driving. IMHO, people tend to over-drive their cars - ie. driving without mechanical sympathy.

On cars without PAS people HAVE to move because they struggle to turn the wheel when they are stationary and if they have to move then they need to think about how much space they have.

[Speed_Demon]

I don't have much to add to this thread, but:

[MDO]

I have seen so called professional advice state this is no longer a problem in the PAS era - the oposite is in fact true - more of a problem than ever as it's all too easy to do.

[aeropilot]

My ex shagged out various elements on the front suspension and PAS on her Focus well before the 3 year warrenty was up (fortunately) which I was convinced was down to her constant and quite harsh use of static-steering....despite repeated but failed attempts to teach her otherwise

Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 10th February 13:47

[p1esk]

aeropilot said:

My ex shagged out various elements on the front suspension and PAS on her Focus well before the 3 year warrenty was up (fortunately) which I was convinced was down to her constant and quite harsh use of static-steering....despite repeated but failed attempts to teach her otherwise

Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 10th February 13:47

I still think this could be a bit of a problem area, and I don't know to what extent the car handbooks advise against dry steering, even assuming drivers read them and take heed.

Back in the days when I used to regularly press my nose against the glass of car showroom windows (circa. 1956) I met an American chap on holiday in Scarborough. I was looking at his Oldsmobile parked in the town and we started chatting. He started it up and demonstrated the power steering by turning the steering from lock to lock while the car was parked - using only the pressure of one finger against a steering wheel spoke. Very easy to do, but I don't see how it can fail to be bad for the machinery if one were to do it on a regular basis.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[alphadog]

I went through a period of having to get track rod ends replaced every 50000 miles or so which ended up being down to me acquiring the bad habit of turning the wheel whilst stationary! Mended my ways and the problem has disappeared!

Inprecise steering geometry has an adverse effect on tyre wear and other suspension components if driving a largish mileage.

Edited by alphadog on Wednesday 11th February 19:08