Discussion
Hey all, just after a bit of advice really.
Coming down an ungritted single track hill, not particularly steep maybe 8-10% gradient and an inch or so of fresh snow slowly, approx 8-9mph in 2nd gear. Changed into 1st approx 200yds from the t junction at the bottom of the hill and slowed to approx 4-5mph with 100yds to go.
With approx 70yds to go to the junction, the ABS kicked in and the car wouldnt lose any more speed, it wasnt speeding up but staying approx 5mph. The car crossed the give way line at the bottom of the hill and the car stopped when the front wheels mounted the grass verge on the other side of the single track road. Luckily there was no traffic about as its a fairly quiet road and was about 2am.
My question is what could i have done differently in this situation again? Our old car had wider tires and never seemed to have any problems on this particular road.
Coming down an ungritted single track hill, not particularly steep maybe 8-10% gradient and an inch or so of fresh snow slowly, approx 8-9mph in 2nd gear. Changed into 1st approx 200yds from the t junction at the bottom of the hill and slowed to approx 4-5mph with 100yds to go.
With approx 70yds to go to the junction, the ABS kicked in and the car wouldnt lose any more speed, it wasnt speeding up but staying approx 5mph. The car crossed the give way line at the bottom of the hill and the car stopped when the front wheels mounted the grass verge on the other side of the single track road. Luckily there was no traffic about as its a fairly quiet road and was about 2am.
My question is what could i have done differently in this situation again? Our old car had wider tires and never seemed to have any problems on this particular road.
Well done for slowing down early.
You should try to find the grippiest part of the road surface. By steering slightly left or right you might find slightly more grip.
In some cars you would have more chance of stopping if you came off the brakes enough to stop the abs from working and tried to brake just below the abs threshold.
In desperation it might be less bad to slow the car against the verge than to slide into a junction.
You should try to find the grippiest part of the road surface. By steering slightly left or right you might find slightly more grip.
In some cars you would have more chance of stopping if you came off the brakes enough to stop the abs from working and tried to brake just below the abs threshold.
In desperation it might be less bad to slow the car against the verge than to slide into a junction.
waremark said:
Well done for slowing down early.
You should try to find the grippiest part of the road surface. By steering slightly left or right you might find slightly more grip.
In some cars you would have more chance of stopping if you came off the brakes enough to stop the abs from working and tried to brake just below the abs threshold.
In desperation it might be less bad to slow the car against the verge than to slide into a junction.
Thanks for the quick reply. I didnt think about slowing against the verge, although on this road there isnt really much of a verge unless you want to bury half of your car into the hedges along the side of the road.You should try to find the grippiest part of the road surface. By steering slightly left or right you might find slightly more grip.
In some cars you would have more chance of stopping if you came off the brakes enough to stop the abs from working and tried to brake just below the abs threshold.
In desperation it might be less bad to slow the car against the verge than to slide into a junction.
Would the handbrake have built up the snow enough to slow the car or made things worse?
Interesting situation, well done for going approaching the junction so slowly! One option would be to apply the handbrake (if you really were going that slow no damage or loss of control would have been caused) if needs be you could then either put the car in a sideways slide therefore digging the tyres through the snow to grip and hopefully stopping (albeit at 90 degrees to the road). Or let some snow build up under the rear tyres as you have mentioned and see how that goes. As you were going so slow and have so much time you could play around with these things and if it got desperate you could've ditched the car in the hedge (surely better than crossing a t-junction out of control?). but as it was you were fine so good result!
While im here thought I'd mention that I've seen some shocking driving these last few icy cold days with people not adjusting at all to the icy conditions (including a freind i got a lift with today following cars at 50-60mph closer than I would in the dry, let alone the 10x more room your supposed to leave on ice!!)
Anyone else caught some bonkers driving?
While im here thought I'd mention that I've seen some shocking driving these last few icy cold days with people not adjusting at all to the icy conditions (including a freind i got a lift with today following cars at 50-60mph closer than I would in the dry, let alone the 10x more room your supposed to leave on ice!!)
Anyone else caught some bonkers driving?
Well done for slowing in good time. Solution to not stopping at that speed, leave in first gear, foot off clutch and switch off the engine. Car should stop reasonably promptly at that sort of speed. Should have used a long blast on the horn once you knew you couldn't stop.
HTH
Happy New Year to all
Martin A
HTH
Happy New Year to all
Martin A
I didn't mention using the handbrake because with the rear wheels locked it only takes the slightest camber to make you slew sideways quite rapidly - and you are probably better off with both hands on the steering wheel. But Pentti Airikkala did recommend using the handbrake for stopping on the loose.
The OP obviously showed great anticipation in slowing the car so much before the incident. It sounds like a difficult and unpleasant situation.
It's very easy for me to comment after having time to think about it but there are a couple of things I might have tried.
If the ABS is not stopping the car, if enough time was available, it may have helped to come off the brakes enough to stop the ABS and then try to brake again as much as possible without triggering it, threshold braking in other words.
I think failing that, I would have tried to put the car gently into the hedge, with the wheel turned into it enough, it may act as an anchor and slow the car down sufficiently. This is likely to damage the car but it is obviously preferable to coasting across a junction risking a higher speed side impact.
It's very easy for me to comment after having time to think about it but there are a couple of things I might have tried.
If the ABS is not stopping the car, if enough time was available, it may have helped to come off the brakes enough to stop the ABS and then try to brake again as much as possible without triggering it, threshold braking in other words.
I think failing that, I would have tried to put the car gently into the hedge, with the wheel turned into it enough, it may act as an anchor and slow the car down sufficiently. This is likely to damage the car but it is obviously preferable to coasting across a junction risking a higher speed side impact.
I'm not sure I'd advise switching the engine off as Martin suggests. Firstly, you'd find the steering and brakes severely hampered if they're power/servo assisted and secondly, if a vehicle appears in your rearview mirror with similar problems you might need the engine pretty damm quick! (I've had this happen once, as Slipstream77 will remember!!).
However, locking the wheels will indeed help if there's sufficient snow on the ground as it will plough it up under the wheels; it's just that I'd choose to lock the rears instead with the handbrake as it's a safer option. This is a last resort though, as it may cause the back to come round if there's any rotational moment in the car or of course a differing mu left to right.
However, locking the wheels will indeed help if there's sufficient snow on the ground as it will plough it up under the wheels; it's just that I'd choose to lock the rears instead with the handbrake as it's a safer option. This is a last resort though, as it may cause the back to come round if there's any rotational moment in the car or of course a differing mu left to right.
I had something similar leaving work in substantial snow some years back, albeit at ~2mph - was in a queue of traffic for a roundabout, road slightly downhill. The car in front moves up, I move slowly to follow then find the brakes aren't stopping me - ABS pummelling away on my foot!
So I yanked hard on the handbrake, which worked better. Came to a stop about 6in from the bumper of a Volvo!
So I yanked hard on the handbrake, which worked better. Came to a stop about 6in from the bumper of a Volvo!
Ive had this problem before. I even had the problem exaggerated by the fact when i came off the brakes the engine speed (i forget which gear i was in) was enough to get the front wheels spinning on the snow! For that reason i am not a big fan of ABS in snow, particularly down-hill. However, the modern systems are better, and every system by default has to become "disabled" at very low speeds - just not sure what that speed is, otherwise you would never be able to stop the wheels rotating at all!! I think ultimately to be as safe as you can, fit the best tyres you can, and if regularly driving on snow winter tyres are desirable.
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