Cadence Master Drivers course & HPC

[brisel]

Has anyone here joined the HPC by this route? Is HPC membership worth the cost of the entry requirements?

I'm looking to make a little more "progress" than my IAM training & test pass has taught me, plus I've recently aquired an RS4.

Basically I want to enjoy the car safely. I will do a track day to find its limits but I'm after some real world coaching.

I only picked Cadence as they are based near me.

TIA

[StressedDave]

Given my occupation, I couldn't possibly comment (and FWIW, I don't do the Master Driver's Course, although I did my membership course with Hugh back in 1993, so you could say I'm a satisfied customer). A large proportion of the course cost is facilities fees - Millbrook isn't a cheap place to hire.

I will give some advice though:

1) It's not a case of pitching up, paying your dosh and doing the 2.5 days of training. Hugh won't let you do the final two days until he thinks you're capable of reaching the HPC entry standards (they're at http://www.hpc.org.uk/standards if you want to see what they are) within that time period.

2) Think of any training you do in and of itself - you aren't training to be a member of HPC, you're training to be a better driver and you might get membership as a bonus.

3) Try a half day first - if you don't gel with your coach, you can always find another.

[brisel]

Thanks (given your occupation )

Fair point about the costs of hiring Millbrook

1) Looking at the HPC standards, how do they differ from those of the IAM?

2) It goes without saying that I want to be a better, safer driver. I'm looking for training beyond what the IAM taught me, should I accidentally stray the wrong side of a speed limit for example...

3) Good idea. I'll be in touch.

[waremark]

You might like to look at a couple of older threads on exactly this subject on the Advanced Driving UK forum. Since these threads there have been some changes to the gatekeepers of the High Performance Club, but not affecting Hugh of Cadence who is still a gatekeeper. See:

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php...

and

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1930...

[StressedDave]

brisel said:

1) Looking at the HPC standards, how do they differ from those of the IAM?

Same core base (I'm sure the HPC standards mention Roadcraft at some point), but more freedom in its execution and an emphasis on the results rather than the system employed. Ask for a demo from a member...

[ipsg.glf]

Do your research. Search for HPC on here, www.advanced-driving.co.uk and
www.traffic-answers.co.uk

Then ask challenging questions of those who recommend HPC.

I'm an ex-member who resigned in disgust.

[Vaux]

waremark said:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1930...

Is this the correct link? Interesting though!

[waremark]

Vaux said:

waremark said:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1930...

Is this the correct link? Interesting though!

Sorry about that! Posted the wrong link in the wrong place. This is the one I meant to post here:

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php...

[brisel]

Waremark - The M3post was a very curious link!?

The ADUK ones are helpful. Thanks for that.

Having had a look around, I might do a full day Roadcraft session at Millbrook. That would combine the Roadcraft aspect on the journey to and from with testing my car's limits safely at the proving ground. I'll leave any decision on the MDC until after then.

StressedDave - Roadcraft is mentioned a few times in the HPC standards. The IAM system just seemed a bit restrictive.

[waremark]

brisel said:

The IAM system just seemed a bit restrictive.

How so? In so far as there is an IAM system, basically it is the police system of driving. When implemented to a high standard, for example by a police Advanced Driver, the drive can be extremely impressive and certainly can take advantage of the potential of a high performance car. The essential elements are a high level of observation, anticipation and planning, to generate a safe and smooth drive - which would be essential features of any drive with a claim to being advanced.

I do agree that at the iam level there may be a degree of dogma around steering methods and avoidance of brake/gear overlap. Is that what you are calling restrictive?

The plan to book a day with Cadence sounds excellent.

[identti]

waremark said:

brisel said:

The IAM system just seemed a bit restrictive.

How so? In so far as there is an IAM system, basically it is the police system of driving. When implemented to a high standard, for example by a police Advanced Driver, the drive can be extremely impressive and certainly can take advantage of the potential of a high performance car. The essential elements are a high level of observation, anticipation and planning, to generate a safe and smooth drive - which would be essential features of any drive with a claim to being advanced.

I do agree that at the iam level there may be a degree of dogma around steering methods and avoidance of brake/gear overlap. Is that what you are calling restrictive?

The plan to book a day with Cadence sounds excellent.

I assume he means that you have to stick to speed limits for the IAM course, which is probably not entirely realistic as he owns an Audi RS4.

[firstmk1]

The legal speed limit applies to any driver training carried out without an examption from the Home Office. Why would this only apply to the IAM course?

End of Pulic Forum announcement

Edited by firstmk1 on Monday 22 December 19:23

[waremark]

Ah, is that what was meant? Funny, I did not associate attitude to the speed limit with 'IAM System', but I do understand the point.

If you want to pass the IAM test you have to follow their rules; that means that for the duration of the test you have to show respect for the speed limit. In view of this, IAM Observers will encourage you to practise obeying the speed limits during Observed drives (most people find this surprisingly difficult).

If you are not preparing for an IAM or Rospa test, and if you are with a coach who does not represent a road safety organisation, the coach may allow you if you wish to be more flexible in relation to the national speed limit - and so be able to help you to get more out of your car in safety at higher speeds. Perhaps, depending entirely on the coach, and probably only on quieter roads, not subject to specific red ring limits.

Edited by waremark on Sunday 21st December 22:10

[brisel]

I was referring to things like BGOL, steering and straightlining corners etc, NOT breaking speed limits. Honest. Like. This is a public forum after all...

I fully appreciate that the law is final as far as formal AD certifcation goes, that's why I'm looking beyond formal schemes towards somewhere like Millbrook.

Should my progress quicken, so the speed of my observations and judgement must too. That's the direction I'd like my training to go in.

[stefan1]

brisel said:

Should my progress quicken, so the speed of my observations and judgement must too. That's the direction I'd like my training to go in.

Well said. Progess is very much the output of great observation, planning and safe judgement, and clearly not an end in itself.

I hope you enjoy the one day course at Millbrook - it's a fantastic venue.

Kind regards

Steve

[ipsg.glf]

stefan1 said:

Progess is very much the output of great observation, planning and safe judgement, and clearly not an end in itself.

Kind regards

Steve

Indeed. Yet it doesn't always happen that way, does it? Just for the record, how many collisions involving HPC members have occured in the last 3 years? and how many vehicles have been written off?

[stefan1]

ipsg.glf said:

stefan1 said:

Progess is very much the output of great observation, planning and safe judgement, and clearly not an end in itself.

Kind regards

Steve

Indeed. Yet it doesn't always happen that way, does it? Just for the record, how many collisions involving HPC members have occured in the last 3 years? and how many vehicles have been written off?

Your post attempts to make a connection that isn't valid.

As has been covered ad nauseum here and elsewhere in response to your posts, two cars have been written off on events. One in an accident in which no blame was apportioned by the police and which happened below the speed limit. The other was a very low value car (sub £1,500 value) which suffered minor damage but because of its low value was written off. This was a fault accident and the member concerned has taken remedial training.

This is old news. You rightly point out that the all the relevant debate and history, into a level of detail that would probably bore most people to death, is contained in old posts on Traffic Answers and AD-UK. I am content to let a reader of that material draw their own conclusions.

Two accidents, only one of which was a fault accident, does not give a balanced picture though (any decent statistician would say that). So, what I can report is that the HPC insurance scheme underwritten by Allianz (which insures about 60 members' cars) has shown for the past several years a claims ratio of massively less than the national average. Bar one year, the claims ratio has been below 20%, and frequently in single digits (and in most cases those claims were for car parking dings, vandalism or such like).

As ever, people like brisel should indeed do their research and contact any Club member they wish for a fair and balanced assessment of our progress in terms of enforcing and improving driving standards, rather than relying on internet gossip. I am proud of the progress we are making, and so are the members of the Club.

Time to move on and be of good cheer - it's Christmas after all.

Kind regards

Steve

[ipsg.glf]

stefan1 said:

ipsg.glf said:

stefan1 said:

Progess is very much the output of great observation, planning and safe judgement, and clearly not an end in itself.

Kind regards

Steve

Indeed. Yet it doesn't always happen that way, does it? Just for the record, how many collisions involving HPC members have occured in the last 3 years? and how many vehicles have been written off?

Your post attempts to make a connection that isn't valid.

As has been covered ad nauseum here and elsewhere in response to your posts, two cars have been written off on events. One in an accident in which no blame was apportioned by the police and which happened below the speed limit. The other was a very low value car (sub £1,500 value) which suffered minor damage but because of its low value was written off. This was a fault accident and the member concerned has taken remedial training.

This is old news. You rightly point out that the all the relevant debate and history, into a level of detail that would probably bore most people to death, is contained in old posts on Traffic Answers and AD-UK. I am content to let a reader of that material draw their own conclusions.

Two accidents, only one of which was a fault accident, does not give a balanced picture though (any decent statistician would say that). So, what I can report is that the HPC insurance scheme underwritten by Allianz (which insures about 60 members' cars) has shown for the past several years a claims ratio of massively less than the national average. Bar one year, the claims ratio has been below 20%, and frequently in single digits (and in most cases those claims were for car parking dings, vandalism or such like).

As ever, people like brisel should indeed do their research and contact any Club member they wish for a fair and balanced assessment of our progress in terms of enforcing and improving driving standards, rather than relying on internet gossip. I am proud of the progress we are making, and so are the members of the Club.

Time to move on and be of good cheer - it's Christmas after all.

Kind regards

Steve

You see a Club of driving gods, lecturing - amongst others - Police Traffic Officers with a much higher level of training.

I see dangerous drivers, coming to the attention of the police and with a highly questionable record of collisions and/or near-misses.

I'm glad I am no longer associated with such a club.

[stefan1]

You are entitled to your view, of course. However, if this really was indicative of our Club I can't see that we would have the support, as we do, of the three senior Police Class 1s / instructors who act as gatekeepers / asessors for our Club. We would not have enjoyed the support of Ted Clements, RIP, who was our beloved patron.

I don't deny there have been issues, but I cannot agree with the extrapolation or the interpretation. I would also note, on a point of pedantry, that you post in the present tense ("I see.." etc.). Since you've not been in the Club for more than 12 months, your data is by definition historical, not present day.

Anyhow, let's continue to agree to differ and let each other live in peace (and everyone else on this board who will otherwise become understandably bored!).

Kind regards

Steve

Edited by stefan1 on Monday 22 December 13:32

[ipsg.glf]

stefan1 said:

You are entitled to your view, of course. However, if this really was indicative of our Club I can't see that we would have the support, as we do, of the three senior Police Class 1s / instructors who act as gatekeepers / asessors for our Club. We would not have enjoyed the support of Ted Clements, RIP, who was our beloved patron.

I don't deny there have been issues, but I cannot agree with the extrapolation or the interpretation. I would also note, on a point of pedantry, that you post in the present tense ("I see.." etc.). Since you've not been in the Club for more than 12 months, your data is by definition historical, not present day.

Anyhow, let's continue to agree to differ and let each other live in peace (and everyone else on this board who will otherwise become understandably bored!).

Kind regards

Steve

Edited by stefan1 on Monday 22 December 13:32

I only seek to ensure that people who are interested in the HPC see both sides of the story. I appreciate that you are not going to volunteer this sort of information to potential new recruits. I am more than happy to let people make up their own minds once they have heard both sides.