Oversteer - Pre-empting
Discussion
Maybe I'm being incredibly dumb but figured I'd ask just to get a few more views.
When provoking a bit of oversteer & "catching" it as the rear end steps out, you think you've successfully caught it, then a split second later, it snaps the other way & I'm trying to work out what I'm doing wrong & what I should actually be doing to not produce that sort of snap I get?
It's frustrating as I think I've got it spot on, then incredibly quickly any control you thought you had disappears & you then have to regain control again which isn't an issue but it's not how it "should" be done of course.
Any thoughts? Apologies for being vague, I'm half hoping those that know what I mean by my ramblings may be able to shed some light.
When provoking a bit of oversteer & "catching" it as the rear end steps out, you think you've successfully caught it, then a split second later, it snaps the other way & I'm trying to work out what I'm doing wrong & what I should actually be doing to not produce that sort of snap I get?
It's frustrating as I think I've got it spot on, then incredibly quickly any control you thought you had disappears & you then have to regain control again which isn't an issue but it's not how it "should" be done of course.
Any thoughts? Apologies for being vague, I'm half hoping those that know what I mean by my ramblings may be able to shed some light.
The most common mistake people seem to make is keeping opposite lock on for too long, thats what causes it to snap back the other way. Wind the opposite lock on as the car oversteers, then wind it off again as it comes back.
It generally helps if you keep a lighter grip on the wheel, squeeze it too tight and you can't feel what the front wheels are doing.
It generally helps if you keep a lighter grip on the wheel, squeeze it too tight and you can't feel what the front wheels are doing.
If you're over-correcting, then you're probably holding the steering wheel too tightly. Use your fingertips only, if possible. Also, you're not sensing when the mass is beginning to shift, which often is when established lateral g has begun to lessen, not subsequently, when it has actually started to go the other way.
The principle is to correct early and lightly. You'd be surprised at how well you can remain in control with small trimming of the steering wheel.
Also, it helps to keep looking long. When you do that, your brain is sooner to perceive small differences in yaw.
Don't forget that, beyond the steering wheel, the other tool at your disposal is the throttle (brake sometimes, but leave that aside). Modulation of the throttle to change the F/R weight bias will have a big effect on grip.
Finally, cumulative experience of all of the above will help you to develop a repertoire of abilities to deal with the potentiality of oversteer. Eventually you'll be making minor corrections because of small camber changes or because you don't like the colour of the road surface, and these small corrections will keep you out of trouble.
The principle is to correct early and lightly. You'd be surprised at how well you can remain in control with small trimming of the steering wheel.
Also, it helps to keep looking long. When you do that, your brain is sooner to perceive small differences in yaw.
Don't forget that, beyond the steering wheel, the other tool at your disposal is the throttle (brake sometimes, but leave that aside). Modulation of the throttle to change the F/R weight bias will have a big effect on grip.
Finally, cumulative experience of all of the above will help you to develop a repertoire of abilities to deal with the potentiality of oversteer. Eventually you'll be making minor corrections because of small camber changes or because you don't like the colour of the road surface, and these small corrections will keep you out of trouble.
Thank you for the advice chaps.
I'll analyse myself again in the coming days. It's not a problem in dry days, never any sign of fishtailing but my actions just don't seem to properly guage the condition of the road when its wet hence the fishtailing.
Anyway, I'll report back when I make a breakthrough
I'll analyse myself again in the coming days. It's not a problem in dry days, never any sign of fishtailing but my actions just don't seem to properly guage the condition of the road when its wet hence the fishtailing.
Anyway, I'll report back when I make a breakthrough
ironictwist said:
Thank you for the advice chaps.
I'll analyse myself again in the coming days. It's not a problem in dry days, never any sign of fishtailing but my actions just don't seem to properly guage the condition of the road when its wet hence the fishtailing.
Anyway, I'll report back when I make a breakthrough
Just don't make a break through a hedge! I'll analyse myself again in the coming days. It's not a problem in dry days, never any sign of fishtailing but my actions just don't seem to properly guage the condition of the road when its wet hence the fishtailing.
Anyway, I'll report back when I make a breakthrough
You turn into the corner, normally with not very much lock applied and, for whatever reason - too much speed, too much power (rear wheel drive) or sudden lift off/brake - the rear steps out. So you correct and maybe remove the cause of the slide, such as by lifting off the throttle or coming off the brakes. Suddenly, the rear wheels stop sliding and grip, only now you have a lot of opposite lock applied. Perhaps even full opposite lock in extreme situations. So now the car is no longer sliding but you're steering hard in the other direction. Result: the car snaps back the other way and in a flash you're spinning in the opposite direction to the first slide.
To avoid this, you need to be smooth with your control inputs - steering, throttle and brakes - but also to anticipate the moment when the rear wheels are about to start gripping again. Be ready to wind the opposite lock off very quickly.
With practice you can hold a slide and keep the car balanced, but you need nice wide open spaces with no trees or oncoming cars to master the art!
To avoid this, you need to be smooth with your control inputs - steering, throttle and brakes - but also to anticipate the moment when the rear wheels are about to start gripping again. Be ready to wind the opposite lock off very quickly.
With practice you can hold a slide and keep the car balanced, but you need nice wide open spaces with no trees or oncoming cars to master the art!
This over-correction thing interests me, because I've never had it happen. I'm not trying to say I'm an amazing driver or anything, just that if it's never ever happened to me in a squillion oversteer slides it must be something very fundamental. Anyone got any ideas?Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 11th December 20:44
RobM77 said:
As above, but it also helps to stay on the throttle, and maybe even accelerate gently as it comes back. Any deceleration will cause further weight transfer to the front exacerbating oversteer, and is often a cause of over-correction, although the root cause is obviously too much opposite lock held on for too long.I use this as an example of the danger with this kind of limited advice; i.e. it can be taken literally. Most situations demand a combination of actions.
The best advice of all is to take a course to practice what to do.
Kind regards
Steve
stefan1 said:
RobM77 said:
crap advice
Not if the problem is too much gas in the first place (e.g. on ice exiting a corner)! I use this as an example of the danger with this kind of limited advice; i.e. it can be taken literally. Most situations demand a combination of actions.
The best advice of all is to take a course to practice what to do.
Kind regards
Steve
I swiftly changed that advice cause it's too specific and well.. rubbish! I typed it whilst I was on the phone and not really thinking. See above for a thought on the matter instead.You could even delete your quote of my original post if you like, cause I wouldn't want anyone to mis-understand what I meant. What I was referring to was that moment when you're just coming out of the slide and the steering's nearly straight again - what I normally do is start to drive again normally and accelerate a little just before the opposite lock finishes and you're back onto positive lock, which removes that little jerk as the slide is caught. I don't think this is relevant to the OP's question because it's not this jerk that causes over-correction. I've never over-corrected a slide so I wouldn't know to be honest. What interests me though is that I make every other driving mistake under the sun on a reasonably regular basis, so why not over-correction? There's gotta be the OP's answer in that somewhere..
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 11th December 20:55
I've not advice so much as experience I can relate which you may find useful for comparative purposes;
I find that when I've got a lot of oversteer and are almost entirely sideways (or the car is turning fast enough that I know it will be) that the hardest part (speaking only of a road car, incidentally) is getting the corrective lock off quickly enough. When its that sideways, then as soon as I feel the sideways swing of the back end slowing down, I'm already beginning to unwind in preparation for the snap-back.
Here you have a second chance to overdo it, so it pays to keep in mind whereabouts your tires are pointing.
When there is not so much oversteer, i.e. when you've just stepped over the limit, rather than leapt wholeheartedly into one of those "why oh why didn't buy those bucket seats" slides, then in my experience its best to keep your two (or more if you've got them) hands relaxed on the wheel to maintain sensitivity to what the car is doing, then let the front tires turn the steering wheel the necessary amount as the rear goes out and the front wheels (hopefully!) maintain grip. In the car I drive, at least, the car in this way (usually) makes the initial correction itself.
Then as it comes back, you must unwind/let it unwind as necessary, and get the tires back facing the correct direction, (by which I do not mean 'forward' as relates to the car, but where you would like to go next) as you may find that during the slide and your strange fixation upon the hedge it was taking you toward, the strip of road you were travelling along has mysteriously wandered off elsewhere, without leaving you so much as a note saying 'back in 5'.
As you say, in the dry its pretty easy, but in the wet it can be tricky and I have had problems with what you describe. I think one potential cause is that particularly in the wet, the snap back from the initial oversteer can be hard enough to unstick your front tires if you don't unwind that lock quick enough (or sometimes even if you do) to keep them turning in sync with the speed of the returning rear end. Thats what it seems like to me anyway, I'm at a loss as to what else would cause it.
Hope thats useful, good luck and please don't crash.
I find that when I've got a lot of oversteer and are almost entirely sideways (or the car is turning fast enough that I know it will be) that the hardest part (speaking only of a road car, incidentally) is getting the corrective lock off quickly enough. When its that sideways, then as soon as I feel the sideways swing of the back end slowing down, I'm already beginning to unwind in preparation for the snap-back.
Here you have a second chance to overdo it, so it pays to keep in mind whereabouts your tires are pointing.
When there is not so much oversteer, i.e. when you've just stepped over the limit, rather than leapt wholeheartedly into one of those "why oh why didn't buy those bucket seats" slides, then in my experience its best to keep your two (or more if you've got them
) hands relaxed on the wheel to maintain sensitivity to what the car is doing, then let the front tires turn the steering wheel the necessary amount as the rear goes out and the front wheels (hopefully!) maintain grip. In the car I drive, at least, the car in this way (usually) makes the initial correction itself.Then as it comes back, you must unwind/let it unwind as necessary, and get the tires back facing the correct direction, (by which I do not mean 'forward' as relates to the car, but where you would like to go next) as you may find that during the slide and your strange fixation upon the hedge it was taking you toward, the strip of road you were travelling along has mysteriously wandered off elsewhere, without leaving you so much as a note saying 'back in 5'.
As you say, in the dry its pretty easy, but in the wet it can be tricky and I have had problems with what you describe. I think one potential cause is that particularly in the wet, the snap back from the initial oversteer can be hard enough to unstick your front tires if you don't unwind that lock quick enough (or sometimes even if you do) to keep them turning in sync with the speed of the returning rear end. Thats what it seems like to me anyway, I'm at a loss as to what else would cause it.
Hope thats useful, good luck and please don't crash.
ironictwist said:
Maybe I'm being incredibly dumb but figured I'd ask just to get a few more views.
When provoking a bit of oversteer & "catching" it as the rear end steps out, you think you've successfully caught it, then a split second later, it snaps the other way & I'm trying to work out what I'm doing wrong & what I should actually be doing to not produce that sort of snap I get?
It's frustrating as I think I've got it spot on, then incredibly quickly any control you thought you had disappears & you then have to regain control again which isn't an issue but it's not how it "should" be done of course.
Any thoughts? Apologies for being vague, I'm half hoping those that know what I mean by my ramblings may be able to shed some light.
You drive a Scoob AICMFP..When provoking a bit of oversteer & "catching" it as the rear end steps out, you think you've successfully caught it, then a split second later, it snaps the other way & I'm trying to work out what I'm doing wrong & what I should actually be doing to not produce that sort of snap I get?
It's frustrating as I think I've got it spot on, then incredibly quickly any control you thought you had disappears & you then have to regain control again which isn't an issue but it's not how it "should" be done of course.
Any thoughts? Apologies for being vague, I'm half hoping those that know what I mean by my ramblings may be able to shed some light.
(always wanted to type that)
Snap = you came off throttle too quick .. keep it on a tad to soften the snap.. (hard to do and needs practice) Go on wet roads to practice..At night ..
or ..left it too late to get the steering wheel centered.( you got to be mighty quick to centre the wheel... repeat "get it straight instantly !) this has got to be done in an instant (can't stress this enough.. really has to be a reflex action to catch a lively car.
With practice ( if you're young should take no less than 3 years !)
All good fun !!
or ..left it too late to get the steering wheel centered.( you got to be mighty quick to centre the wheel... repeat "get it straight instantly !) this has got to be done in an instant (can't stress this enough.. really has to be a reflex action to catch a lively car.
With practice ( if you're young should take no less than 3 years !)
All good fun !!
DollarTheif said:
ironictwist said:
Maybe I'm being incredibly dumb but figured I'd ask just to get a few more views.
When provoking a bit of oversteer & "catching" it as the rear end steps out, you think you've successfully caught it, then a split second later, it snaps the other way & I'm trying to work out what I'm doing wrong & what I should actually be doing to not produce that sort of snap I get?
It's frustrating as I think I've got it spot on, then incredibly quickly any control you thought you had disappears & you then have to regain control again which isn't an issue but it's not how it "should" be done of course.
Any thoughts? Apologies for being vague, I'm half hoping those that know what I mean by my ramblings may be able to shed some light.
You drive a Scoob AICMFP..When provoking a bit of oversteer & "catching" it as the rear end steps out, you think you've successfully caught it, then a split second later, it snaps the other way & I'm trying to work out what I'm doing wrong & what I should actually be doing to not produce that sort of snap I get?
It's frustrating as I think I've got it spot on, then incredibly quickly any control you thought you had disappears & you then have to regain control again which isn't an issue but it's not how it "should" be done of course.
Any thoughts? Apologies for being vague, I'm half hoping those that know what I mean by my ramblings may be able to shed some light.
(always wanted to type that)
If you're lifting off the throttle to help end the slide you'll need to straighten the steering wheel a whole lot faster than you think you need to, otherwise it will flick back in the opposite direction and have you fishtailing into a spin. However, if you're doing an S-bend then lifting off to induce that violent flick can be quite handy to get the car sliding the other way.
I'm still 'learning' how to control oversteer, and I think it depends on a few things:-
- How much grip is available, and whether you've provoked it with the throttle or been caught out by the road;
- How FAR the back has gone out before you catch it
- What sort of inputs you've made
Typically, when I'm driving the S at the moment and go into a corner or drive-through a corner a little too enthusiastically, a slight jab of opp-lock combined with a (modest) lift of the throttle collects the car again neatly enough, without any fishtailing.
But those couple of occasions I've been properly caught out (wet not icy, surprisingly), I have ended up fishtailing it through using the same technique...which I put down to not picking it up quick enough.
I would however be the first to say that my technique isn't the most suitable for rwd oversteer antics, as it's born from years of fwd and a desire to get the car straight again as quick as possible. Bravado aside, I'm not good enough to drift a car, and it's too valuable to bin by getting cocky...I'm happy just pushing it out and picking it up for now...
If you're interested, there's a good video on Drivers' Republic at the moment where Chris Harris gives a drifting lesson (and I do mean lesson...he breaks it down into constituent parts).
- How much grip is available, and whether you've provoked it with the throttle or been caught out by the road;
- How FAR the back has gone out before you catch it
- What sort of inputs you've made
Typically, when I'm driving the S at the moment and go into a corner or drive-through a corner a little too enthusiastically, a slight jab of opp-lock combined with a (modest) lift of the throttle collects the car again neatly enough, without any fishtailing.
But those couple of occasions I've been properly caught out (wet not icy, surprisingly), I have ended up fishtailing it through using the same technique...which I put down to not picking it up quick enough.
I would however be the first to say that my technique isn't the most suitable for rwd oversteer antics, as it's born from years of fwd and a desire to get the car straight again as quick as possible. Bravado aside, I'm not good enough to drift a car, and it's too valuable to bin by getting cocky...I'm happy just pushing it out and picking it up for now...
If you're interested, there's a good video on Drivers' Republic at the moment where Chris Harris gives a drifting lesson (and I do mean lesson...he breaks it down into constituent parts).
havoc said:
If you're interested, there's a good video on Drivers' Republic at the moment where Chris Harris gives a drifting lesson (and I do mean lesson...he breaks it down into constituent parts).
Also worth searching youtube for the Best Motoring 'Drift Bible' - series of lessons from the master, Keiichi Tsuchiya Demonstrates a number of different techniques and cars.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff