Electronic Stability Control

[gdaybruce]

Just wondering if anyone has actually experienced ESC (or whatever acronym your car uses) for real. ABS and traction control are easy enough to "try out" on a quiet stretch of road but finding out exactly what ESC does requires a bit too much commitment for my taste, unless I can find a deserted airfield some time. (Being a company car, I haven't quite got the nerve to take it on a track day to experiment there.)

So, has anyone had an emergency avoidance incident and felt ESC intervening? And if so, what was the effect?

[odyssey2200]

Last winter I took a detour around some road works on the main route out of town.
I was in a biggish 4x4

The detour involved using a series of lanes which run parallel to the A350 and have a series of tight S bends on them.

The main roads had been gritted but the un-gritted lane didn't even seem icy.

I had negotiated the S bends with no drama at all.

However there is a small, narrow bridge on a slight kink in the road which had a thick layer of ice all over it.

I hit brakes, closed eyes, hid in glove box and shouted "fk fk fk" a lot, which I am sure helped.

Thankfully the ESP stared firing off and making all sorts of noises, causing the car to twitch and yaw but I managed to exit the bridge on the other side with the only damage being to my clothing.

The bridge was the sort that has a concrete post at each end and in the middle with 2 parallel tubes running between them.
My fear was hitting the N/S/R on one side and it spinning me around into the other side.

So I can say without any doubt that ESP saved my bacon!!

[Don]

Absolutely piss wet day at Silverstone. Horrible, horrible weather. Put it into Copse corner and the back end goes.

Psssssshhhhhh-puft-click-click-click-lick-pssshhhhht.

Back on the straight and heading where I was pointing. PSM Porsche Stability Management - wonderful.

Mate's Cayman at Bedford Autodrome: he'd misread the corner: waaaaaaayyyyy tighter than he though. I'm yelling "Brake Brake Brake" on the way in. He turned in.

Psssssshhhhhh-puft-click-click-click-lick-pssshhhhht.

Went round. Slooooowly. But we went round. Absolutely amazing.


I've never set it off on the road. But I know it works and works well.

[waremark]

A whole range of experiences in various makes on different tracks and proving grounds. As others have indicated, it will rescue you from situations you would not have thought possible - though of course there is an eventual limit.

Over several years of attending Volvo winter driving courses in Sweden, their 'DSTC' systems have become must more subtle, helping keep you safe in a much less unpleasantly intrusive manner. Nowadays Volvo do not let you turn the system completely off (interesting question here - should manufacturers make it possible to turn these systems off?).

I don't think you can meaningfully investigate the system on the road.

If you have such a system, the key thing to remember is that if you get into a skid you must steer in the direction you want to go - if understeering (the car is ploughing straight on) steer more. This is different from the advice for a car without ESC.

[brisel]

waremark said:

If you have such a system, the key thing to remember is that if you get into a skid you must steer in the direction you want to go - if understeering (the car is ploughing straight on) steer more. This is different from the advice for a car without ESC.

Eh? My skid pan instructor told me to lift off and reduce steering lock to regain traction in the event of understeer. Winding on more lock just makes things worse.

The best bit of advice I had was to look where you want to go, and the vehicle usually follows. After a sharp bend near me there is one lonely oak tree on the straight afterwards. Where does everyone crash into? The tree...

Getting back onto topic, my mk 4 Golf R32's ESP isn't particularly intrusive but quite easily awakened. It has saved my life a couple of times too, so the only time it gets switched off is on track days.

[waremark]

brisel said:

waremark said:

If you have such a system, the key thing to remember is that if you get into a skid you must steer in the direction you want to go - if understeering (the car is ploughing straight on) steer more. This is different from the advice for a car without ESC.

Eh? My skid pan instructor told me to lift off and reduce steering lock to regain traction in the event of understeer. Winding on more lock just makes things worse.

Your skid pan instructor was giving you the right advice for a car without ESP. With ESP, you should wind on more lock and the ESP will sort you out if it is physically possible. You have to wind on the lock to tell the computer where you want to go. More people should know this!! (I only know how to use ESP because I have been on several ice driving courses in Sweden, and have been able to compare FWD, RWD, 4WD, with and without ESP).

[brisel]

Ah. Fair enough.

[gdaybruce]

gdaybruce said:

Just wondering if anyone has actually experienced ESC (or whatever acronym your car uses) for real. ABS and traction control are easy enough to "try out" on a quiet stretch of road but finding out exactly what ESC does requires a bit too much commitment for my taste, unless I can find a deserted airfield some time. (Being a company car, I haven't quite got the nerve to take it on a track day to experiment there.)

So, has anyone had an emergency avoidance incident and felt ESC intervening? And if so, what was the effect?

Answered my own question this morning. Very icy country lane so at about 20mph (this is in an Astra Estate) I experimented by steering abruptly hard right. Very little reaction until, after about a half second, sundry clicks and the car started to turn. At that point I had to straighten up for fear of running out of road so I'd still like to find a nice big airfield to try it properly but at least I now have a feel for what it does. I'm not sure the dog was impressed with the manoeuvre, but I was.

PS There was no other traffic around at the time!

[BenElliottRacing]

waremark said:

If you have such a system, the key thing to remember is that if you get into a skid you must steer in the direction you want to go - if understeering (the car is ploughing straight on) steer more. This is different from the advice for a car without ESC.

sorry but that is total hogwash.

like all driver aids (abs, tc) you want to give the correct inputs in order to turn the systems off and allow the the tyres to grip fully and give you more control.

what you descripe will work but will take much more time for the car to stop understeering than if you reduced the lock, got the speed down and then applied more lock when slower and having reduced brake pressure.

Edited by BenElliottRacing on Friday 5th December 23:50

[vonhosen]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ncE-Vk7egRo

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Y6z7cXxEE&feat...

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 5th December 23:59

[waremark]

BenElliottRacing said:

waremark said:

If you have such a system, the key thing to remember is that if you get into a skid you must steer in the direction you want to go - if understeering (the car is ploughing straight on) steer more. This is different from the advice for a car without ESC.

sorry but that is total hogwash.

like all driver aids (abs, tc) you want to give the correct inputs in order to turn the systems off and allow the the tyres to grip fully and give you more control.

what you descripe will work but will take much more time for the car to stop understeering than if you reduced the lock, got the speed down and then applied more lock when slower and having reduced brake pressure.

By which time you are parked in the field.

All I can vouch for is that what you say does not apply if using studs on ice or snow, the situation of which I have significant experience. The ESP does a fantastic job, and using it positively (not driving smoothly to avoid activating it) can be part of getting the quickest time round a track in those conditions (quite similar to the frozen lake scenes in Von's BMW clip).

[BOR]

BenElliottRacing said:

waremark said:

If you have such a system, the key thing to remember is that if you get into a skid you must steer in the direction you want to go - if understeering (the car is ploughing straight on) steer more. This is different from the advice for a car without ESC.

sorry but that is total hogwash.

like all driver aids (abs, tc) you want to give the correct inputs in order to turn the systems off and allow the the tyres to grip fully and give you more control.

what you descripe will work but will take much more time for the car to stop understeering than if you reduced the lock, got the speed down and then applied more lock when slower and having reduced brake pressure.

Edited by BenElliottRacing on Friday 5th December 23:50

Waremark is right actually. This is also the advice from BMW. Without ESC you need to do the usual, with ESC, either do nothing, or wind on more lock.

[RobM77]

Yes, I've felt ESC working in a variety of different situations (road, track and ski pan) and it's remarkably effective.

[jhfozzy]

I was invited to the new vectra launch (yeah, poor me) up at millbrook proving ground in Bedfordshire (5th gears test track) and took my brother along for the day.

We were literally given a set of keys, had a cursory check of our licence, told to take them on the alpine course and gave them a bit of stick.

I came up to a sweeping right hand bend a little too fast to provoke a bit of understeer and all of a sudden, the revs dropped off and the car glided smoothly round the corner, shocked the hell out of me, I thought I'd broken it.

As soon as I'd left the corner, normal service resumed and I tried the same on the next lap. This time, I noticed that when it happened, a little T/C light flashed on the dash.

I mentioned it to the rep and they said it was the ESC coming in. It really sorted the cornering out, but sort of took the fun out of it too. Thank god there's an off button.

[waremark]

jhfozzy said:

Thank god there's an off button.

Sort of raises the question of why there should be an off button. Do you think you should be allowed to turn a safety system off on the road?

[identti]

waremark said:

jhfozzy said:

Thank god there's an off button.

Sort of raises the question of why there should be an off button. Do you think you should be allowed to turn a safety system off on the road?

I think you should. I think over reliance on such a system is worse than learning good car control, and understanding the physics of driving. People who turn the systems off know the risks they're taking. Also, before I had ESP i never thought I needed it anyway - only when I got it I thought it was a good idea, but it could lead to complacency.

As with speed limits, they're getting to a stage where people think that if they drive at them they will be safe regardless, and this is resulting in stupid 40s and 50s in areas which were previously national speed limits.

[jhfozzy]

waremark said:

jhfozzy said:

Thank god there's an off button.

Sort of raises the question of why there should be an off button. Do you think you should be allowed to turn a safety system off on the road?

It's needed on ice / slippery surfaces for sure. With it on, a vectra won't move on ice, the ESC comes in, the rev's keep kicking down and you don't go anywhere.

Switch it off and you'll wheelspin a bit, but at least you've got control of the revs.

[waremark]

jhfozzy said:

waremark said:

jhfozzy said:

Thank god there's an off button.

Sort of raises the question of why there should be an off button. Do you think you should be allowed to turn a safety system off on the road?

It's needed on ice / slippery surfaces for sure. With it on, a vectra won't move on ice, the ESC comes in, the rev's keep kicking down and you don't go anywhere.

Switch it off and you'll wheelspin a bit, but at least you've got control of the revs.

Did you see Tiff Needell find otherwise in a Jag X Type in the Arctic?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

Personally, I had the experience you mention in my first car with a traction control system (a 95 car) but I am not sure it applies to more modern systems. On Volvo winter driving courses, using winter tyres on ice, I have timed acceleration runs testing traction control off versus on. Times were more or less identical. And the test drivers claimed they were quicker round an ice track with the ESC on than with it off (not that you can turn it fully off in modern Volvos).

[p1esk]

waremark said:

jhfozzy said:

Thank god there's an off button.

Sort of raises the question of why there should be an off button. Do you think you should be allowed to turn a safety system off on the road?

Mine is off all the time.

Hello, Mark.

You ask a fair question though and I don't know the answer, but I'm inclined to feel that in this case the answer should be yes, we should have the choice. After all, it isn't a primary safety feature.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[RobM77]

p1esk said:

waremark said:

jhfozzy said:

Thank god there's an off button.

Sort of raises the question of why there should be an off button. Do you think you should be allowed to turn a safety system off on the road?

Mine is off all the time.

Hello, Mark.

You ask a fair question though and I don't know the answer, but I'm inclined to feel that in this case the answer should be yes, we should have the choice. After all, it isn't a primary safety feature.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

It depends how intrusive the system is. Some of them are brilliant and you don't really know they're there, but some just drive you crazy. My E46 330ci for instance would disconnect the throttle pedal completely for about 2 seconds if the driven wheels even slipped by a tiny amount. I'm pretty confident on the limit and it was my judgement that I was actually safer with the system disengaged. I know people will disagree with that, but it was even a problem in a straight line, which you can't argue with! I was once driving across a dual carriageway and as I pulled away from a standstill the rear wheels slipped a little on some gravel and dust (not a commonly used junction). Normally that wouldn't be an issue at all and you'd barely notice, but the DSC cut power and left me stranded in the middle of the dual carriageway. It's easy to see why that could be dangerous - sometimes you're forced to get out of the way quickly or accelerate out of a dangerous situation. A lot of people's reaction to that cut of power would be to accelerate more, which would create more slip and you're in a vicious circle then. I'd rather be in control myself to be honest.