Automatic into neutral?
Discussion
The latest edition of the IAM magazine includes a Q&A with the chief examiner. One question is about putting an automatic car into neutral when stationary (for example at traffic lights). The CE says he would advise against it, as the whole point of an automatic is that it does the work for you, and you should simply sit there with the car in "drive", presumably with the foot brake holding the car to prevent creeping forward.
I can't agree with that. Not only is it potentially dangerous should, for whatever reason, your foot slips off the brake (allowing the car to move forward), but also it's uncomfortable to sit with your foot pushing on a brake pedal. In my (admitedly not very recent) experience of automatics, sitting in drive while stationary makes the car feel as though it's under stress.
Add to that the fact that your brake lights will be on, dazzling the driver behind you, and I think the advice is plain wrong.
What say you?
I can't agree with that. Not only is it potentially dangerous should, for whatever reason, your foot slips off the brake (allowing the car to move forward), but also it's uncomfortable to sit with your foot pushing on a brake pedal. In my (admitedly not very recent) experience of automatics, sitting in drive while stationary makes the car feel as though it's under stress.
Add to that the fact that your brake lights will be on, dazzling the driver behind you, and I think the advice is plain wrong.
What say you?
Viggo said:
The latest edition of the IAM magazine includes a Q&A with the chief examiner. One question is about putting an automatic car into neutral when stationary (for example at traffic lights). The CE says he would advise against it, as the whole point of an automatic is that it does the work for you, and you should simply sit there with the car in "drive", presumably with the foot brake holding the car to prevent creeping forward.
I can't agree with that. Not only is it potentially dangerous should, for whatever reason, your foot slips off the brake (allowing the car to move forward), but also it's uncomfortable to sit with your foot pushing on a brake pedal. In my (admitedly not very recent) experience of automatics, sitting in drive while stationary makes the car feel as though it's under stress.
Add to that the fact that your brake lights will be on, dazzling the driver behind you, and I think the advice is plain wrong.
What say you?
I agree with you. I put the car into neutral at traffic lights whether it's the automatic or manual. For all the same reasons.I can't agree with that. Not only is it potentially dangerous should, for whatever reason, your foot slips off the brake (allowing the car to move forward), but also it's uncomfortable to sit with your foot pushing on a brake pedal. In my (admitedly not very recent) experience of automatics, sitting in drive while stationary makes the car feel as though it's under stress.
Add to that the fact that your brake lights will be on, dazzling the driver behind you, and I think the advice is plain wrong.
What say you?
At one time we were told to give the advice to just pull up the handbrake.
b
ks. It just sits there straining against it.Then you've got the computer-controlled clutch systems. They "creep" by riding the clutch. Who the hell rides the clutch at traffic lights? Burning the damn thing away.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Another vote for neutral if the stop is for any length of time.
I don't use the handbrake in my B5 whilst it is left in drive because the handbrake can't hold the car - too much torque!
All that said, I don't believe the 'box suffers any material wear if you keep the car in "D" whilst stationary - indeed, some people used to say (and perhaps still do) there was (is) more wear putting the car into and out of D.
So, I take the middle path and use N for long stops, and hold on the footbrake in D for short stops.
Kind regards
Steve
I don't use the handbrake in my B5 whilst it is left in drive because the handbrake can't hold the car - too much torque!
All that said, I don't believe the 'box suffers any material wear if you keep the car in "D" whilst stationary - indeed, some people used to say (and perhaps still do) there was (is) more wear putting the car into and out of D.
So, I take the middle path and use N for long stops, and hold on the footbrake in D for short stops.
Kind regards
Steve
Don said:
Then you've got the computer-controlled clutch systems. They "creep" by riding the clutch. Who the hell rides the clutch at traffic lights? Burning the damn thing away.
I am not sure which systems to which you are referring.Automated manuals (e.g. F1 or DSG style systems) disengage the clutch when stationary. There is no wear whilst the car is stopped. As soon as the footbrake is released, the clutch prepares to engage (and in some systems, like the Porsche PDK does engage to create a small creep, like an automatic of old). So the clutch is only engaged when the foot is off the footbrake.
What people do sometimes do wrong with these systems is hold the car on the hill with the throttle. That is just as bad as riding the clutch in a "proper" manual car.
And normal automatics do not suffer by being held on the footbrake or handbrake whilst in D.
Kind regards
Steve
I once had a loan car which was an auto and I noticed that the trip computer indicated something like 0.3 gallons per hour when ticking over in neutral but this increased to 0.4 galls per hour if left in drive.
Probably not a huge worry in the overall scheme of things but it does indicate that left in drive, the engine is pulling against the brakes and the drag of the torque converter, which in these days of environmental concern strikes one as wasteful.
Probably not a huge worry in the overall scheme of things but it does indicate that left in drive, the engine is pulling against the brakes and the drag of the torque converter, which in these days of environmental concern strikes one as wasteful.
fluffnik said:
Don said:
bks. It just sits there straining against it.
ks. It just sits there straining against it.
You may be slightly warming your ATF but nothing is being strained.
Now I know there is no mechanical wear in a proper auto box with a torque converter but that's not my problem. My problem is that if someone rear ends me and the car is in drive there is a chance that the car will drag me into the traffic. Manual or auto the problem is the same.
I wouldn't sit there with the car in gear and the clutch depressed in a manual for longer then necessary so I'm not going to do it in an auto either.
stefan1 said:
Don said:
Then you've got the computer-controlled clutch systems. They "creep" by riding the clutch. Who the hell rides the clutch at traffic lights? Burning the damn thing away.
I am not sure which systems to which you are referring.Automated manuals (e.g. F1 or DSG style systems) disengage the clutch when stationary. There is no wear whilst the car is stopped. As soon as the footbrake is released, the clutch prepares to engage (and in some systems, like the Porsche PDK does engage to create a small creep, like an automatic of old). So the clutch is only engaged when the foot is off the footbrake.
What people do sometimes do wrong with these systems is hold the car on the hill with the throttle. That is just as bad as riding the clutch in a "proper" manual car.
And normal automatics do not suffer by being held on the footbrake or handbrake whilst in D.
Kind regards
Steve
The reason is the one about being rear-ended, foot comes off the footbrake and the car pulls forward. Or being rear-ended and the handbrake mechanism being damaged and being pulled into the traffic.
If it's good practice to disengage drive and put the car into neutral when stationary in a manual car, to me, it seems to be good practice to do so regardless of the gearbox system.
I'll bet some totally gearless electric transmission will come along and make my dinosaur, outdated views irrelevant but until then...
Oh. Clearly - if the manufacturer's manual advises a particular method of using a gearbox then I'd follow it unless there were good reasons not to...
Don said:
I agree with you. I put the car into neutral at traffic lights whether it's the automatic or manual. For all the same reasons.
At one time we were told to give the advice to just pull up the handbrake.
bks. It just sits there straining against it.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
My last automatic Associate, who passed with an "excellent" drive, was criticised for knocking the 'box into neutral at lights. As was the guidance of our Chief Observer.At one time we were told to give the advice to just pull up the handbrake.
b
ks. It just sits there straining against it.Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Now I need to clarify this as I'm personally quite happy to leave an auto in Drive at lights.
This must be another case of no black and white rule - my Assoc had a 1.4 Honda Jazz (not quite an Alpina B5!)
The other important issue is not illuminating brake lights unnecessarily?
We had this discussion on the Powershift transmission thread in the Volvo forum and an acrimonious thread on here.
Volvo were contacted because it is clear that the clutch disengages when foot is on brake, but engages to biting point when footbrake is no longer pressed.
If the handbrake is engaged, and then foot removed from brake, you can feel the back of the car dip a little. A number of us were concerned about this because it flies against what we perceived as correct practice, ie foot on brake until someone puls up behind, then handbrake on and foot off to avoid brakelight dazzle, leave in D.
Volvo say this is the correct way to use the gearbox, which for the record is a Getrag/Haldex dual clutch transmission. They also agree with dropping it into neutral if a long stop.
It only just creeps even on the flat so the clutch isn't dragging too much I suspect, but agreed it doesn't feel right mechanical sympathy wise. Yet it will hold on the clutch on surprisingly steep slopes even if not on the very steepest, so there clearly is some interaction between gearbox/clutch/engine and wheels sensors, the latter which have to be bi-directional in order to achieve this.
Volvo were contacted because it is clear that the clutch disengages when foot is on brake, but engages to biting point when footbrake is no longer pressed.
If the handbrake is engaged, and then foot removed from brake, you can feel the back of the car dip a little. A number of us were concerned about this because it flies against what we perceived as correct practice, ie foot on brake until someone puls up behind, then handbrake on and foot off to avoid brakelight dazzle, leave in D.
Volvo say this is the correct way to use the gearbox, which for the record is a Getrag/Haldex dual clutch transmission. They also agree with dropping it into neutral if a long stop.
It only just creeps even on the flat so the clutch isn't dragging too much I suspect, but agreed it doesn't feel right mechanical sympathy wise. Yet it will hold on the clutch on surprisingly steep slopes even if not on the very steepest, so there clearly is some interaction between gearbox/clutch/engine and wheels sensors, the latter which have to be bi-directional in order to achieve this.
This is a rapidly developing area with the introduction of new technology.
With a conventional auto and (as many are) a slighty awkward parking brake I use Park rather than neutral for a stop longer than a pause. I hold the footbrake on to show the brake lights until the situation behind is stable. (In cars in which I have checked this the reversing lights do not come on in a change between Drive and Park.)
If I had a convenient electrically operated parking brake I would probably apply that instead of moving the gear lever to Park.
My Mercedes has a 'Hold' feature, where you press the footbrake firmly once stopped to apply the Hold, and the footbrake then remains applied after you release the pedal. It is released automatically on pressing the accelerator to move off. I am quite prepared to trust this Hold feature unreservedly, and this is what I use to hold the car except in the dark when I feel the brake lights will dazzle a driver behind.
My DCT BMW disengages the clutch when stationery regardless of the position of the footbrake. It does not reengage the clutch until you touch the accelerator. If pausing I hold the car on the footbrake, if stopping I use the handbrake. In both cases I leave the car in gear (D or 1). From the functionality of the gear selector and the warnings given it is quite clear that BMW do not intend you to change to neutral at any time.
With a conventional auto and (as many are) a slighty awkward parking brake I use Park rather than neutral for a stop longer than a pause. I hold the footbrake on to show the brake lights until the situation behind is stable. (In cars in which I have checked this the reversing lights do not come on in a change between Drive and Park.)
If I had a convenient electrically operated parking brake I would probably apply that instead of moving the gear lever to Park.
My Mercedes has a 'Hold' feature, where you press the footbrake firmly once stopped to apply the Hold, and the footbrake then remains applied after you release the pedal. It is released automatically on pressing the accelerator to move off. I am quite prepared to trust this Hold feature unreservedly, and this is what I use to hold the car except in the dark when I feel the brake lights will dazzle a driver behind.
My DCT BMW disengages the clutch when stationery regardless of the position of the footbrake. It does not reengage the clutch until you touch the accelerator. If pausing I hold the car on the footbrake, if stopping I use the handbrake. In both cases I leave the car in gear (D or 1). From the functionality of the gear selector and the warnings given it is quite clear that BMW do not intend you to change to neutral at any time.
automaticsagent006 said:
Don said:
being rear-ended and the handbrake mechanism being damaged and being pulled into the traffic.
Surely the fuel cutoff would trip if you were hit that hard. Plus the car wouldn't be too keen on moving after that much damage either.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff