More Gearchange Help
Discussion
Hi there,
I realise that when shifting from, say 3rd to 4th gear or whatever, that the smoothest procedure is to clutch in till the revs fall to around the next gear rpm before letting clutch out again. But what is the best way to create the quickest gearchange and why? I often find that when driving hard up through the gears the car smells a bit - presumably the clutch taking a hammering, but is that due to me getting on the accelerator too early for example?
Also when coming down the box' i.e. 3rd to 2nd it is nice to rev match i.e. heal & toe, etc. What I want to know is, is blipping the throttle whilst not getting the perfect rev match to the next gear still more beneficial than doing no rev matching at all (presuming the 'blip' does not put the engine over the desired rpm)?
Thanks in advance.
I realise that when shifting from, say 3rd to 4th gear or whatever, that the smoothest procedure is to clutch in till the revs fall to around the next gear rpm before letting clutch out again. But what is the best way to create the quickest gearchange and why? I often find that when driving hard up through the gears the car smells a bit - presumably the clutch taking a hammering, but is that due to me getting on the accelerator too early for example?
Also when coming down the box' i.e. 3rd to 2nd it is nice to rev match i.e. heal & toe, etc. What I want to know is, is blipping the throttle whilst not getting the perfect rev match to the next gear still more beneficial than doing no rev matching at all (presuming the 'blip' does not put the engine over the desired rpm)?
Thanks in advance.
The quickest gear change is clutch down, into the next gear, clutch up. But you probably aren't really after the quickest gear change. Hopefully you're concerned about mechanical sympathy, not unbalancing the car and not disturbing the passengers. Those mainly come down to rev matching, timing and smoothness when you engage the clutch.
GreenV8S said:
The quickest gear change is clutch down, into the next gear, clutch up. But you probably aren't really after the quickest gear change. Hopefully you're concerned about mechanical sympathy, not unbalancing the car and not disturbing the passengers. Those mainly come down to rev matching, timing and smoothness when you engage the clutch.
Yes, that's true, but may I suggest that another factor affecting passenger comfort is how quickly you come off the throttle if you're driving a very powerful car and using its performance positively.Best wishes all,
Dave.
There isn't a legitimate quicker method than to use the standard method smoothly. you could try reving hard and skipping gears to save shifting time by the simple expedient of not making many changes e.g hard away in 1st & 2nd then staight to 5th to maintain say 50
OR
Buy a car with a DSG twin clutch shift.
(surly these have to slip & drag their respective twin clutches to give smooth 1/10th sec upshifts under hard power which cannot be very sympathetic or being multiplate & possibly wet type clutches-running in oil-does it not matter?)
OR
Buy a car with a DSG twin clutch shift.
(surly these have to slip & drag their respective twin clutches to give smooth 1/10th sec upshifts under hard power which cannot be very sympathetic or being multiplate & possibly wet type clutches-running in oil-does it not matter?)
Downchanging: clutch wear is a function of differential engine\wheel speed so yes, some rev matching is always better than none at all. Try and catch the engine when the revs are falling a little, as that's generally thought of as kinder than engaging the clutch when revs are rising.
Upchanging: I've never had any problems with this. Maybe your car has a very pronounced flywheel effect? Is it a modern drive-by-wire throttle car? - many of them don't let the throttle off when you take your foot off the pedal, they ramp the revs down gradually. This is to make slow gearchanging smoother, but of course it gets in the way of fast gearchanging, or fast throttle movements if and when required. Utterly useless, and one of the reasons I switched from a BMW E46 330ci to an E36 328i.
Upchanging: I've never had any problems with this. Maybe your car has a very pronounced flywheel effect? Is it a modern drive-by-wire throttle car? - many of them don't let the throttle off when you take your foot off the pedal, they ramp the revs down gradually. This is to make slow gearchanging smoother, but of course it gets in the way of fast gearchanging, or fast throttle movements if and when required. Utterly useless, and one of the reasons I switched from a BMW E46 330ci to an E36 328i.
mark_mcd said:
Hi there,
I realise that when shifting from, say 3rd to 4th gear or whatever, that the smoothest procedure is to clutch in till the revs fall to around the next gear rpm before letting clutch out again. But what is the best way to create the quickest gearchange and why? I often find that when driving hard up through the gears the car smells a bit - presumably the clutch taking a hammering, but is that due to me getting on the accelerator too early for example?
Also when coming down the box' i.e. 3rd to 2nd it is nice to rev match i.e. heal & toe, etc. What I want to know is, is blipping the throttle whilst not getting the perfect rev match to the next gear still more beneficial than doing no rev matching at all (presuming the 'blip' does not put the engine over the desired rpm)?
Thanks in advance.
Mark,I realise that when shifting from, say 3rd to 4th gear or whatever, that the smoothest procedure is to clutch in till the revs fall to around the next gear rpm before letting clutch out again. But what is the best way to create the quickest gearchange and why? I often find that when driving hard up through the gears the car smells a bit - presumably the clutch taking a hammering, but is that due to me getting on the accelerator too early for example?
Also when coming down the box' i.e. 3rd to 2nd it is nice to rev match i.e. heal & toe, etc. What I want to know is, is blipping the throttle whilst not getting the perfect rev match to the next gear still more beneficial than doing no rev matching at all (presuming the 'blip' does not put the engine over the desired rpm)?
Thanks in advance.
Why would you even want the "quickest gearchange"?
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
flemke said:
Why would you even want the "quickest gearchange"?
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
I love this kind of story.Best wishes all,
Dave.
p1esk said:
flemke said:
Why would you even want the "quickest gearchange"?
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
I love this kind of story.Best wishes all,
Dave.
Me too. Thanks Flemke.p1esk said:
I love this kind of story.Best wishes all,
Dave.
In an odd way, this story characterises the kind of quiet efficiency combined with good to excellent progress which is the hallmark of the top exponents of road driving, as well as those on the track (perhaps, I have much less experience of the latter).
This, therefore, is exactly what you're seeing when you sit next to the best road drivers. Doesn't look especially remarkable until you realise what they've achieved in the drive and the dedication, enthusiasm and hard work that it takes to reach and maintain those standards.
Please don't dismiss it too lightly.
regards
Nick
RobM77 said:
p1esk said:
flemke said:
Why would you even want the "quickest gearchange"?
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
A few years ago, when he was one of the fastest F1 drivers, there was a great magazine interview with JP Montoya.
In it, he related the anecdote that recently he had been at some sponsor's day at a circuit. He and Jackie Stewart were the featured guests. They were taking the punters out for pax rides in a saloon, but first there was a little contest between the two of them to see who could set the faster benchmark time.
Each went out with the other as his passenger. Stewart was first. Montoya said that, after a few warm-up laps, it was time for Stewart to go for it.
Montoya said that he was taken by surprise that Stewart was driving so slowly. He particularly noticed, he said, how slow Stewart's gear changes were. Montoya said that, as he observed this, he actually felt sorry for Stewart. It was a sad thing, he said, that a former 3-times champion's speed had declined so far.
After a couple of Stewart's "fast" laps, Stewart came in and they swapped seats. Montoya said that now the bit was between his teeth. Stewart had shown him what he could do, and now the young Turk wanted to demonstrate how the game had moved on in the last thirty years.
After his warm-up laps, Montoya really went for it. He said that he pushed the car to its absolute limits. That included Montoya's ramming aggressively through the gears, not lazily snicking them in Stewart's chauffeur style. From the passenger seat, Stewart stayed quiet.
Montoya completed some laps which he knew were as fast as could have done. He then brought the car back into the pit lane, eager to learn what was the difference between his lap times and those of the old man.
The gap between Montoya's fastest lap and Stewart's fastest was 0.8 seconds. Not bad - except that the fastest laps had been Stewart's.
Hence my opening question - why would you want the "quickest gearchange"?
Cheers.
I love this kind of story.Best wishes all,
Dave.
Me too. Thanks Flemke.The Montoya article was published, IIRC, probably in F1 Racing in about 2005.
Cheers.
On a similar note there was an article in New Scientist in the mid-90s about using radar sensors to plot trajectories on circuits. A certain professional Scot and his lad were examined in the same F3000 car. Despite the reaction time of the Scot having waned over the intervening years and his cornering speeds being a smidgin lower, he was still quicker over a lap...
StressedDave said:
On a similar note there was an article in New Scientist in the mid-90s about using radar sensors to plot trajectories on circuits. A certain professional Scot and his lad were examined in the same F3000 car. Despite the reaction time of the Scot having waned over the intervening years and his cornering speeds being a smidgin lower, he was still quicker over a lap...
It's a fairly common theme that a novice driver will try and carry too much speed into a corner and scupper his chances of accelerating early enough to find good speed down the straight (where you spend the majority of your time). Having said that, Jackie is simply a very very fast driver!Interestingly, another study I've seen shows why reaction time is not as relevant as you might think. Most tennis coaches can return their prodige's serves, even though the ball crosses the net quicker than their reaction times. Equally, if you react to oversteer in a racing car an average reaction time including muscular response (0.15-0.3?) after it starts then it's often too late to save it (which incidentally is one of the reasons that racing sims can be harder than real life). Good drivers don't rely so much on reaction times, moreso an ability to judge what's going to happen next, or at least narrow possibilities down as to what will happen next.
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