Did I handle this situation well today?
Discussion
I had a bit of an incident this afternoon.
I was approching a roundabout planning on heading right round it and coming back the way I came, just as I started to turn right, the left rear tyre failed, causing the rear of the car to step out, I lifted off the gas and turned into it (this is a FWD car) and luckly saved it, Was lifting off the gas the right thing to do?
Cheers, Garry.
I was approching a roundabout planning on heading right round it and coming back the way I came, just as I started to turn right, the left rear tyre failed, causing the rear of the car to step out, I lifted off the gas and turned into it (this is a FWD car) and luckly saved it, Was lifting off the gas the right thing to do?
Cheers, Garry.
A sudden lift can sometimes cause a spin (or a snap back the other way if opposite lock is applied before lifting), its better to stay smooth and avoid sudden weight shift.
However you can't have done anything too far wrong as you didn't crash, as always the most important thing is to stay in control and not panic.
However you can't have done anything too far wrong as you didn't crash, as always the most important thing is to stay in control and not panic.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 18th November 23:31
Interesting 
In a front wheel drive car you need to accelerate out of oversteer, obviously whilst applying the correct corrective lock on the steering. Accelerating will cause weight transfer, giving the rear tyres (namely the left rear....) more grip and thus reducing the slide. In your situation though, you'd just lost a left rear tyre, so accelerating would have slammed that wheel into the road, which could cause some nasty and perhaps dangerous effects on the handling. Ergo, I think you did the right thing. The aim of the game in such a sitation is to avoid damaging anyone else's car first and make sure that you stay safe, which you did. 
In a front wheel drive car you need to accelerate out of oversteer, obviously whilst applying the correct corrective lock on the steering. Accelerating will cause weight transfer, giving the rear tyres (namely the left rear....) more grip and thus reducing the slide. In your situation though, you'd just lost a left rear tyre, so accelerating would have slammed that wheel into the road, which could cause some nasty and perhaps dangerous effects on the handling. Ergo, I think you did the right thing. The aim of the game in such a sitation is to avoid damaging anyone else's car first and make sure that you stay safe, which you did. gazza_3 said:
Cheers chaps, I'd like to think it was skill, however i think it was mainly luck 
on closer inspection of the side wall I found a hole. I guess I lifted off to try and get some of the weight of the rear of the car? Was hugely scary though .
Lifting off is a natural reaction with a slide of any sort. However, it will actually make moderate to high speed oversteer worse (the cure for power oversteer in a RWD car is actually to back off, but given that your car is FWD you'll never get this situation). However, most road cars are so benign and friendly to drive that lifting off and steering into a slide will work in 99% of cars, and is the best general advice to give someone who doesn't have time for extensive skid training. It's really only something like a single seater or Radical that will actually spit you round if you lift off. on closer inspection of the side wall I found a hole. I guess I lifted off to try and get some of the weight of the rear of the car? Was hugely scary though . StressedDave said:
Hmmm... so those 400 or so fatal accidents I investigated involving loss of control were actually due to something other than lifting off when courage went awry. IME while you may not go all the way round, you generally go far enough round to make recovery impossible.
The question of how to deal with a slide is asked in EVO this month and non other than Paul Ripley responds by saying to lift off and steer into it. It's standard advice these days it seems - it's just too confusing to some people to teach them the whole truth. Maybe I've owned forgiving cars (check my profile), but all of the road cars that I've owned and driven would come back if you lifted off on the onset of oversteer. I would suggest that if anyone crashes a road car due to lifting off then either their steering technique is also flawed, thus exacerbating their problems, or they went so far as to brake (which is definitely a bad idea!)? What do you think?RobM77 said:
The question of how to deal with a slide is asked in EVO this month and non other than Paul Ripley responds by saying to lift off and steer into it.
Is it lift off or reduce?Getting back to the OP, what kind of speed are we talking about here on a roundabout that would even make someone think about calling it lift off oversteer?
Vaux said:
RobM77 said:
The question of how to deal with a slide is asked in EVO this month and non other than Paul Ripley responds by saying to lift off and steer into it.
Is it lift off or reduce?Getting back to the OP, what kind of speed are we talking about here on a roundabout that would even make someone think about calling it lift off oversteer?
In the OP's situation of course on a right hand bend, accelerating risked digging in the left rear wheel and ripping the tyre off or worse, so he did the right thing
RobM77 said:
The question of how to deal with a slide is asked in EVO this month and non other than Paul Ripley responds by saying to lift off and steer into it. It's standard advice these days it seems - it's just too confusing to some people to teach them the whole truth. Maybe I've owned forgiving cars (check my profile), but all of the road cars that I've owned and driven would come back if you lifted off on the onset of oversteer. I would suggest that if anyone crashes a road car due to lifting off then either their steering technique is also flawed, thus exacerbating their problems, or they went so far as to brake (which is definitely a bad idea!)? What do you think?
The problem tends to be that most drivers don't have either your catlike reactions or experience and tend to get a bit beyond the onset of oversteer before they do anything. I know you have a hang-up about steering methods, but I've yet to see a problem caused or indeed exacerbated by how someone steers. The major problems on road are due to the lack of space in which to sort out the problem you've created.StressedDave said:
RobM77 said:
The question of how to deal with a slide is asked in EVO this month and non other than Paul Ripley responds by saying to lift off and steer into it. It's standard advice these days it seems - it's just too confusing to some people to teach them the whole truth. Maybe I've owned forgiving cars (check my profile), but all of the road cars that I've owned and driven would come back if you lifted off on the onset of oversteer. I would suggest that if anyone crashes a road car due to lifting off then either their steering technique is also flawed, thus exacerbating their problems, or they went so far as to brake (which is definitely a bad idea!)? What do you think?
The problem tends to be that most drivers don't have either your catlike reactions or experience and tend to get a bit beyond the onset of oversteer before they do anything. I know you have a hang-up about steering methods, but I've yet to see a problem caused or indeed exacerbated by how someone steers. The major problems on road are due to the lack of space in which to sort out the problem you've created.
Yes, you might be right there. I probably do start correcting oversteer before it actually happens to be honest (most corrections that I do in any car just correct what's about to happen, not what has happened already - I think that goes for most people?). I wouldn't say my reactions are that good though, so I suppose it's more experience of feeling when the car's saying it's going to oversteer. I've never tried to correct oversteer once it's visibly obvious - maybe I should try on a skid pan sometime? I expect I'd just spin, thus proving your point.As far as steering methods go, I wouldn't say that I have a hang up about it - but it is a huge help to one's driving to steer properly. Go to You Tube and type in "Nurburgring Crash" or "Nordschleife crash" and watch the tourist lap accidents - almost all of them are caused by over-correction of oversteer, which has its roots in a poor steering technique.
RobM77 said:
As far as steering methods go, I wouldn't say that I have a hang up about it - but it is a huge help to one's driving to steer properly. Go to You Tube and type in "Nurburgring Crash" or "Nordschleife crash" and watch the tourist lap accidents - almost all of them are caused by over-correction of oversteer, which has its roots in a poor steering technique.
That's one way of looking at it, although my view is the over-correction of oversteer is the problem, however the steering is applied. For sure there's too much steering going on out there, but I'm sure a lot of people either put too much corrective lock on (panic rather than poor steering technique) or don't take it off at the right time (again panic rather than steering technique per se)StressedDave said:
RobM77 said:
As far as steering methods go, I wouldn't say that I have a hang up about it - but it is a huge help to one's driving to steer properly. Go to You Tube and type in "Nurburgring Crash" or "Nordschleife crash" and watch the tourist lap accidents - almost all of them are caused by over-correction of oversteer, which has its roots in a poor steering technique.
That's one way of looking at it, although my view is the over-correction of oversteer is the problem, however the steering is applied. For sure there's too much steering going on out there, but I'm sure a lot of people either put too much corrective lock on (panic rather than poor steering technique) or don't take it off at the right time (again panic rather than steering technique per se) Yes, I would think that panic and lack of experience is indeed the root the cause of the over-correction, but it's a lot easier to understand what's going on and control the car if your steering technique is a good one, so it provides a good grounding in that sense. Flapping at the wheel like an angry sealion is going to end in tears even if you do have the mind of Jackie Stewart! Good car control can only speak well through good technique.For example, a fixed hold at quarter to three enables you to know where straight ahead is without taking your eyes off the road, and a calm controlled feeding technique is essential for corrections of more than one turn - if you start shuffling your hands round the wheel and crossing your arms it's easy to get things all wrong very quickly in oversteer. Combining these two makes over-correcting less likely, even if you do panic.
The other reason I'm so keen on good technique is because it leads to smoother and more progressive driving - for example holding one's hands across a diameter gives balanced steering inputs, as opposed to a ten to two hold where the wheel 'falls' one way or the other, and rotational inputs don't possess a linear effort:movement ratio. This is especially pertinent in higher speed bends where you need to be very smooth.
RobM77 said:
for example holding one's hands across a diameter gives balanced steering inputs, as opposed to a ten to two hold where the wheel 'falls' one way or the other
I used to think that, and from the physics, it does appear initially compelling. The diameter gives the greatest moment for a downwards force, and the highest hand separation.However, it's a bit like the toe-in on the fronts -- you might reason that having the wheels pointing where you are going would be better, but the story changes mid-corner.
I don't really care much for the minutiae of steering technique, but ten-two gives a balanced lower hand above or near the diameter mid corner, where grip is more likely to be an issue and needed to be felt. It also allows a pull down start to the steering action which may provide a smoother application at the hint of the start or the notion of the beginning or the turn-in, as my stressed friend likes to (start to) call it.
But whatever works. I think the actual shape of the wheel make a bigger difference (on what strut / rim / feature are your fingertips going to be resting whilst steering?)
In stephan1's B5, for example, I found that it was most comforting and reassuring resting ones fingertips lightly on the nipples.
StressedDave said:
That's one way of looking at it, although my view is the over-correction of oversteer is the problem, however the steering is applied.
I don't have anything like either of you guys' experience, but that is what I've always thought (from my own experiences and seeing other peoples).I think that most people can easilly catch the initial slide, but then leave the lock on too long, resulting in a much bigger swing the other way which is what gets them. Whenever I've spun / nearly spun, I think it's the winding off of the initial lock which I've got wrong.
I agree with you, unwinding the corrective lock was the thing I (and others) found hardest on airfield limit handling days.
I think this was for 2 reasons:
1. Too much corrective lock on in the first place; and
2. Poor steering technique making it hard to wind lock off.
FWIW the only time I've had to use corrective lock on the road I caught the slide "second bite" as it snapped back (due to overcorrection). Luckily there was lots of room to do it and it was low-speed.
I think this was for 2 reasons:
1. Too much corrective lock on in the first place; and
2. Poor steering technique making it hard to wind lock off.
FWIW the only time I've had to use corrective lock on the road I caught the slide "second bite" as it snapped back (due to overcorrection). Luckily there was lots of room to do it and it was low-speed.
Regarding holding the wheel on a diameter, it's more an issue of turning the wheel in a balanced fashion, rather than pulling the wheel this way or that. At ten to two the wheel "falls" from left to right.
Regarding over-correction, I agree. The problem is that unless you've kept a fixed input on the steering wheel and used a predictable and familiar steering technique, you need to look at the steering wheel to work out where straight ahead is when the car comes back in a straight line! If you've performed multiple turns without paying attention, you may not even know where straight ahead is anymore!! (this is what caused Mansell's BTCC shunt I believe). This is one of the reasons you never see over-correction in karting, and it's less common in single seaters than in saloon car racing - the steering's so direct that no feeding of the wheel is needed (the other reason is of course the lower and mass and momentum compared with a car, plus somewhat the lack of suspension storing energy). The minute you have multiple turns lock to lock you need to be disciplined about the way you steer if you are to over-common its downsides once things get lary.
Obviously though, as I'm sure Dave will agree, most of these problems can be avoided by firstly avoiding the problem in the first place, and secondly having some training to know what to do at the time.
Regarding over-correction, I agree. The problem is that unless you've kept a fixed input on the steering wheel and used a predictable and familiar steering technique, you need to look at the steering wheel to work out where straight ahead is when the car comes back in a straight line! If you've performed multiple turns without paying attention, you may not even know where straight ahead is anymore!! (this is what caused Mansell's BTCC shunt I believe). This is one of the reasons you never see over-correction in karting, and it's less common in single seaters than in saloon car racing - the steering's so direct that no feeding of the wheel is needed (the other reason is of course the lower and mass and momentum compared with a car, plus somewhat the lack of suspension storing energy). The minute you have multiple turns lock to lock you need to be disciplined about the way you steer if you are to over-common its downsides once things get lary.
Obviously though, as I'm sure Dave will agree, most of these problems can be avoided by firstly avoiding the problem in the first place, and secondly having some training to know what to do at the time.
7db said:
RobM77 said:
for example holding one's hands across a diameter gives balanced steering inputs, as opposed to a ten to two hold where the wheel 'falls' one way or the other
I used to think that, and from the physics, it does appear initially compelling. The diameter gives the greatest moment for a downwards force, and the highest hand separation.However, it's a bit like the toe-in on the fronts -- you might reason that having the wheels pointing where you are going would be better, but the story changes mid-corner.
I don't really care much for the minutiae of steering technique, but ten-two gives a balanced lower hand above or near the diameter mid corner, where grip is more likely to be an issue and needed to be felt...
Agreed on the 'what works for you' count but speaking from my own experience I was amazed how much more natural steering felt when I changed from 10-2 to quarter to 3.
7db said:
...I found that it was most comforting and reassuring resting ones fingertips lightly on the nipples.
Quoted for posterity Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 20th November 20:27
GravelBen said:
7db said:
RobM77 said:
for example holding one's hands across a diameter gives balanced steering inputs, as opposed to a ten to two hold where the wheel 'falls' one way or the other
I used to think that, and from the physics, it does appear initially compelling. The diameter gives the greatest moment for a downwards force, and the highest hand separation.However, it's a bit like the toe-in on the fronts -- you might reason that having the wheels pointing where you are going would be better, but the story changes mid-corner.
I don't really care much for the minutiae of steering technique, but ten-two gives a balanced lower hand above or near the diameter mid corner, where grip is more likely to be an issue and needed to be felt...
Agreed on the 'what works for you' count but speaking from my own experience I was amazed how much more natural steering felt when I changed from 10-2 to quarter to 3.
I too started driving at the age of 17 using ten to two steering input, as taught by my driving instructor. After my test though, I realised a couple of things. One was that heel and toe made driving so much simpler (but please let's not start that one again!), and the other was that if I held the wheel at quarter to three across its diameter, steering control was far more natural and my driving improved in leaps and bounds as a result. No doubt if I had persisted with ten to two I would have got used to it though, which might make it seem strange to all the "ten to two" people reading this thread who wish to try quarter to three.
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