Dealing with deleberate obstruction by another motorist??
Discussion
Hi all, after a bit of advice as to how i could have handled a recent situation differently from those clever advanced driving chaps that handily lurk round these parts!
Here's the scene
appologies for the long post!)
Time: 10.00am
Weather: dry, clear , light sun
Location: M45
Situation>
i leave the crowded M1 (flowing at between 50 and 60mph that morning) via the long slipway that joins the M45 westwards from the northbound M1, The slip road is totally empty within visable limits, i accelerate to approx 8.5 leptons.
As i round the long sweeping corner just off the M1, i am in the inside lane, and i observe a large HGV, approx 600m ahead, also in the inside lane.
I immediately check the situation and move to the right hand lane, and ease of the accelerator as i come up to within approx 100m of the lorry. I pass him, positioned fully right in the outside lane, no problems so far.
As my field of view opens (as i pass the HGV) i observe a large 4x4 in the inside lane, 300m ahead of the HGV, and it has a small red car very close to the back of it (less than 3 car lengths approx). As i safely pass the HGV i accelerate again, from apprx 7.5 leptons up to 8 leptons.
I am already very "suspicious" of the small red car as it is following the 4x4 so closely, so i again take up the fully right position in the overtaking lane, and once again ease off the accelerator.
Funnily enough, as i close to within approx 50m of the pair of vehicles, the red car pulls out into the outside lane without indicating. Our differential speed is in the order of 20 to 25mph as the 4x4 was not going very fast and the red car had no room to accelerate what with being so close to the 4x4. As i have "anticipated" this eventuality, it is no problem to brake (faily hard, say 0.6g ish) and let the red car continue it's overtake. I sit behind the red car, close, but not too close (approx 2-3 car lengths) (remember i have had to scrub off 20mph to avoid hitting it).
Now this is where is gets odd!
The red car very slowly pulls level with the 4x4 (which is still doing approx 55mph) then sit there, blocking the outside lane. The 4x4 driver has obviously noticed he is being overtaken and nicely starts to slowly slow down to "help" the red car pass, but the red car just backs off too. (I am still sitting 2 to 3 car lengths behind the red car in the outside lane) We all continue like this for approx 30 secs, and by now, even the large HGV has caught up and is now looming large behind the 4x4 and next to me. This is really starting to get dangerous at this point.
I have made no indications to the red car (no light flashing/ hooting, "hand signals" etc), but i now notice that the driver is giving me the V's and shouting and waving at me??
Eventually, after we have all been boxed in close proximity for about a minute, the red car slowly accelerates again, up to approx 60mph, droping the 4x4 and HGV, with me still waiting behind him. He makes no effort to return to the now empty inside lane.
After a final bout of hand gestures and waving the red car driver finally pulls over to the left hand lane and i accelerate swiftly past, incident over!
However, it was
1) deleberate obstruction
2) significantly dangerous for ALL parties involved
3) totally unnecessary
I am a pretty sensible, intelegent chap, i don't loose my temper much, but i was suprised, because if he had continued to block me i actually was considering "pitting" the red car into the barriers!!! and that suprises even me!!!
So the question is:
1) how best to deal with that sort of situation?
2) do other people get the same thing or is it "my" driving?
3) what do people think they have to gain by deleberate blocking? (it didnt slow my journey down, because i just did 15 leptons along the remainder of the empty M45!!!)
4) are people really so concerned with "occupying the moral high ground" when driving (i.e. you shall not break the NSL etc) that they will be involved in an accident to prove it??
3 more pertinent points, that could possibly have some influcence
a) i drive a BMW (which does seem to wind some people up by it's very existence! lol)
b) i always drive on dipped beam headlights at all times
c) i do drive in a very "deliberate" style, i like to use the performance of my car when conditions are safe to do so
d) i have no problem with people pulling out in front of me (everyone, yes EVEN me!) sometimes makes a mistake, forgetting to look / indicate etc, but if i do it, i then make every effort possible to then get out of the other motorists way ASAP, not make every effort possible to get IN there way!
What do people recon?? (flame suit on!)
ta!
Here's the scene
appologies for the long post!)Time: 10.00am
Weather: dry, clear , light sun
Location: M45
Situation>
i leave the crowded M1 (flowing at between 50 and 60mph that morning) via the long slipway that joins the M45 westwards from the northbound M1, The slip road is totally empty within visable limits, i accelerate to approx 8.5 leptons.
As i round the long sweeping corner just off the M1, i am in the inside lane, and i observe a large HGV, approx 600m ahead, also in the inside lane.
I immediately check the situation and move to the right hand lane, and ease of the accelerator as i come up to within approx 100m of the lorry. I pass him, positioned fully right in the outside lane, no problems so far.
As my field of view opens (as i pass the HGV) i observe a large 4x4 in the inside lane, 300m ahead of the HGV, and it has a small red car very close to the back of it (less than 3 car lengths approx). As i safely pass the HGV i accelerate again, from apprx 7.5 leptons up to 8 leptons.
I am already very "suspicious" of the small red car as it is following the 4x4 so closely, so i again take up the fully right position in the overtaking lane, and once again ease off the accelerator.
Funnily enough, as i close to within approx 50m of the pair of vehicles, the red car pulls out into the outside lane without indicating. Our differential speed is in the order of 20 to 25mph as the 4x4 was not going very fast and the red car had no room to accelerate what with being so close to the 4x4. As i have "anticipated" this eventuality, it is no problem to brake (faily hard, say 0.6g ish) and let the red car continue it's overtake. I sit behind the red car, close, but not too close (approx 2-3 car lengths) (remember i have had to scrub off 20mph to avoid hitting it).
Now this is where is gets odd!
The red car very slowly pulls level with the 4x4 (which is still doing approx 55mph) then sit there, blocking the outside lane. The 4x4 driver has obviously noticed he is being overtaken and nicely starts to slowly slow down to "help" the red car pass, but the red car just backs off too. (I am still sitting 2 to 3 car lengths behind the red car in the outside lane) We all continue like this for approx 30 secs, and by now, even the large HGV has caught up and is now looming large behind the 4x4 and next to me. This is really starting to get dangerous at this point.
I have made no indications to the red car (no light flashing/ hooting, "hand signals" etc), but i now notice that the driver is giving me the V's and shouting and waving at me??
Eventually, after we have all been boxed in close proximity for about a minute, the red car slowly accelerates again, up to approx 60mph, droping the 4x4 and HGV, with me still waiting behind him. He makes no effort to return to the now empty inside lane.
After a final bout of hand gestures and waving the red car driver finally pulls over to the left hand lane and i accelerate swiftly past, incident over!
However, it was
1) deleberate obstruction
2) significantly dangerous for ALL parties involved
3) totally unnecessary
I am a pretty sensible, intelegent chap, i don't loose my temper much, but i was suprised, because if he had continued to block me i actually was considering "pitting" the red car into the barriers!!! and that suprises even me!!!
So the question is:
1) how best to deal with that sort of situation?
2) do other people get the same thing or is it "my" driving?
3) what do people think they have to gain by deleberate blocking? (it didnt slow my journey down, because i just did 15 leptons along the remainder of the empty M45!!!)
4) are people really so concerned with "occupying the moral high ground" when driving (i.e. you shall not break the NSL etc) that they will be involved in an accident to prove it??
3 more pertinent points, that could possibly have some influcence
a) i drive a BMW (which does seem to wind some people up by it's very existence! lol)
b) i always drive on dipped beam headlights at all times
c) i do drive in a very "deliberate" style, i like to use the performance of my car when conditions are safe to do so
d) i have no problem with people pulling out in front of me (everyone, yes EVEN me!) sometimes makes a mistake, forgetting to look / indicate etc, but if i do it, i then make every effort possible to then get out of the other motorists way ASAP, not make every effort possible to get IN there way!
What do people recon?? (flame suit on!)
ta!
OK. You didn't do anything wrong. The immediate thing I can think of that you might have done better was the distance behind the small red car. Two to three car lengths at 70mph is waaaay within the two-second-rule minimum. So perhaps a slightly slower approach might have allowed a smoother brake to a greater distance behind the red car.
I do find that when tossers make mistakes they do seem to like to blame it on absolutely anyone else around. His aubsequent actions were inexcusable...and frankly I'd report it. I'm not surprised you felt like ramming him. I'd have felt just the same. It's what one DOES about it that matters. You did the right thing of backing off and waiting.
So I reckon you did OK.
I do find that when tossers make mistakes they do seem to like to blame it on absolutely anyone else around. His aubsequent actions were inexcusable...and frankly I'd report it. I'm not surprised you felt like ramming him. I'd have felt just the same. It's what one DOES about it that matters. You did the right thing of backing off and waiting.
So I reckon you did OK.
I guess he maybe didn't see you approaching (or didn't look) before his overtake of the 4x4.
Then all of a sudden you are 'up his arse with your headlights on' (as he sees it), whilst he struggles to overtake in an underpowered car.
Thus he feels you were harrassing him (which I grant, you weren't).
Then all of a sudden you are 'up his arse with your headlights on' (as he sees it), whilst he struggles to overtake in an underpowered car.
Thus he feels you were harrassing him (which I grant, you weren't).
Max_Torque said:
2) significantly dangerous for ALL parties involved
What was significantly dangerous about it?You were far too close. You said the other car was small - it's quite intimidating being on the motorway in a small car, if you haven't ever done it then it's worth trying just for the perspective. It's a different world from being in your BMW (or my Merc). And if you come up behind someone at speed, they almost always react by slowing down.
Quick - report yourself immediately.
"I am a pretty sensible, intelegent chap, i don't loose my temper much, but i was suprised, because if he had continued to block me i actually was considering "pitting" the red car into the barriers!!! and that suprises even me!!!"
This just alarms me. Calm down. Drop back. Let the situation unfold, and then press on through. Don't try to force cars through and out of the way.
If you want to know whether you were too close or affecting the driver ahead in a negative way, then judge by his reaction. Do you think he felt you were too close? Did he have a negative reaction? There's a lot of misunderstanding that can happen between vehicles.
Do you think that if you had dropped right off, then he would have got out of the way quicker and let you got on with your journey quicker? Sometimes the quickest way forwards is a step backwards.
Or had you lost sight of getting progress, as the red mist descended and you needed to beat the other guy, even if it slowed you down?
"I am a pretty sensible, intelegent chap, i don't loose my temper much, but i was suprised, because if he had continued to block me i actually was considering "pitting" the red car into the barriers!!! and that suprises even me!!!"
This just alarms me. Calm down. Drop back. Let the situation unfold, and then press on through. Don't try to force cars through and out of the way.
If you want to know whether you were too close or affecting the driver ahead in a negative way, then judge by his reaction. Do you think he felt you were too close? Did he have a negative reaction? There's a lot of misunderstanding that can happen between vehicles.
Do you think that if you had dropped right off, then he would have got out of the way quicker and let you got on with your journey quicker? Sometimes the quickest way forwards is a step backwards.
Or had you lost sight of getting progress, as the red mist descended and you needed to beat the other guy, even if it slowed you down?
Don said:
OK. You didn't do anything wrong. The immediate thing I can think of that you might have done better was the distance behind the small red car. Two to three car lengths at 70mph is waaaay within the two-second-rule minimum. So perhaps a slightly slower approach might have allowed a smoother brake to a greater distance behind the red car.
I do find that when tossers make mistakes they do seem to like to blame it on absolutely anyone else around. His aubsequent actions were inexcusable...and frankly I'd report it. I'm not surprised you felt like ramming him. I'd have felt just the same. It's what one DOES about it that matters. You did the right thing of backing off and waiting.
So I reckon you did OK.
I think the thing i find most difficult is finding the correct balance in driving, obviously overt aggression is not on, but then, if every time you had to pass someone in the left lane you had to brake down to their speed and wait to see if they were going to pull out on you, it would take forever to get anywhere, and you'd effectively have let the other driver drive your car, instead of making your own decisions etc??I do find that when tossers make mistakes they do seem to like to blame it on absolutely anyone else around. His aubsequent actions were inexcusable...and frankly I'd report it. I'm not surprised you felt like ramming him. I'd have felt just the same. It's what one DOES about it that matters. You did the right thing of backing off and waiting.
So I reckon you did OK.
I use the term "small red car" but as it was a '05 plate fiesta, it isnt really that small! lol! In fact my "otherhalf" has a 1.4 version, and last time i checked, it could in fact do more than 55mph on an Mway without burning up or disintegrating! lol!
i think it is certainly possible that the other driver "frightened" themself, due to a lack of observation, as as mentioned, then reacted badly.
The situation WAS dangerous, any time you get into close proximity to 40 tonnes at 50mph, with exactly zero exit routes to take, thats dangerous!
so the question perhaps becomes, how close should you be behind someone in that situation?, too close = bad, and too far means that they can just forget you are there and then dawdle along for ages! lol!
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 17th October 18:05
Max_Torque said:
The situation WAS dangerous, any time you get into close proximity to 40 tonnes at 50mph, with exactly zero exit routes to take, thats dangerous!
There were only zero exit routes because you were so close to the Fiesta.These things happen though. Being stuck on even a long slip road isn't the end of the world though - you'll soon be off it.
I have mixed feeling about driving on dipped beam all the time - it's generally seen as aggressive although likely to be law soon.
As others said - I think you were too close. I happens that one ends up in such a situation because of others erratic driving, but I find that most drivers do not immediatly correct the situation to 2s distance. Perhaps there is something psychologic that makes slowing down (slower than the 4x4 in this case) on the "fast lane" a bit harder. But actually the 2s rule is made for situations like this (change of speed and cars interacting) so I would make sure to restore the 2s distance immediatly. Standard routine basically.
Additionally, after maybe 10-15s sitting behind the Fiesta - realizing that something definitly is off - I would consider returning to the left lane behind the 4X4 @ 2s where ones presence is about as neutral as it gets and can see how the situation in front unfolds. In situations like this there is no time to guess what the driver is thinking, so it's better to get out of the way.
For some people the mere presence of a car behind indeed creates (a lot of) stress.
This is the way I would deal with the sitiation anyhow, hope you find it usefull.
Cheers,
/Frederik
Additionally, after maybe 10-15s sitting behind the Fiesta - realizing that something definitly is off - I would consider returning to the left lane behind the 4X4 @ 2s where ones presence is about as neutral as it gets and can see how the situation in front unfolds. In situations like this there is no time to guess what the driver is thinking, so it's better to get out of the way.
For some people the mere presence of a car behind indeed creates (a lot of) stress.
This is the way I would deal with the sitiation anyhow, hope you find it usefull.
Cheers,
/Frederik
Max_Torque said:
I think the thing i find most difficult is finding the correct balance in driving, obviously overt aggression is not on, but then, if every time you had to pass someone in the left lane you had to brake down to their speed and wait to see if they were going to pull out on you, it would take forever to get anywhere, and you'd effectively have let the other driver drive your car, instead of making your own decisions etc??
I have a very simple rule - everyone on the roads (including me) is an idiot. Not in the gurning village variety, but of the 'I'm going to do something unexpected because I don't think the same way you do' variety.For example, there I was in my Fiesta driving quite comfortably up the M45 when I spotted a lorry. I did a quick mirror check and saw a BMW flashing me out so I came out... As far as you were concerned you had your dipped beam on. Matey in the Fiesta saw somebody with their lights on during the day that wasn't Volvo shaped because he was off in a world of his own and not checking his mirrors at least six times a minute.
How to deal with that - simple - plan for the worst thing that could reasonably (and if you're Captain Paranoid, unreasonably too) happen. If it doesn't then you've dodged a bullet, if it does then you can sit smugly back while it happens in front of you.
Max_Torque said:
The situation WAS dangerous, any time you get into close proximity to 40 tonnes at 50mph, with exactly zero exit routes to take, thats dangerous!
See, to my vaguely educated eye, a small car apparently getting close to the back of a lorry while dawdling gently up a motorway ticks just about the 'what could reasonably happen' boxes. They're either going to jam on the brakes as the lorry mysteriously appears in front of them, or they're going to chop out a lane in your path. If you plan your approach so that you are reach the all important point after they've had to make that decision, then you're laughing. It isn't easy, it does take practice but the secret is in the timing rather than the approach speed. You've got to give the other driver enough time to a) see you, b) work out what they think you're going to be doing and c) react and make suitable control inputs. a) is about distance back when they reach their decision point b) is about car 'body language', which tallies nicely with your comment about not just sitting there - if they see you closing and have enough time to not come out, then they won't. If they're closing on the lorry and won;t have enough time to see you then they'll just shoot out.<war story mode>
A few years back I investigated a near fatal RTA involving a well-known person and a large white van with mobile disco and markings down the side. No great speed was involved, although the well-known person was seriously injured. The effective cause of the accident was the van driver giving too much precedence. He'd spotted W-K P moving between the cars on his nearside and slowed right down to see what they were going to do. Just as he made the decision that they'd seen them and were stopping to allow him to pass, W-K P decided the same for the van. Result - both moved at the same time and the inevitable happened.
</war story mode>
It's probably not the easiest thing to describe in words - but can be demonstrated. If happen to know a friendly traffic cop (and an old one for preference), see if you can get a demo. The best blue light runs (in terms of average speed from point-to-point) I've been in on tend to happen at no more than 40 mph, because the driver is working with points a) and b). Sure he's not hitting any high speeds, but equally he's not using the brakes either...
CivicMan said:
If anyone tailgates me, especially BMWs with their headlights on in daytime, I slow down....... and get out of their way slooooowly. Without gestures.
Funny thing, i just about never get tailgated! mainly 'cause if the roads clear, i'll just move outa the way and let who ever it is behind me past, no one's held up. no one's put in a dangerous position. no on gets enraged. simple, smart and effective. have you thought about trying the same?or of course feel free to deliberately obstruct people as normal, and one day, the BiB will be pulling your crushed car, with you (and any passenegrs) smeared into strawberry jam inside, from under the wheels of a large lorry or other car.
Just something to think about.............
To the more mature people commenting on this thread, thanks for your valuable input, i shall endevour to be more level headed and try to give the other motorists more space next time!
There is nothing much you can in a situ like that, except hang back. It gets annoying when the HGV moves up alongside you 'cos he is getting annoyed, and then when you check out the HGV and see it is covered in foreign writing, and possibly the driver can now no longer you see you, it does all get a bit much.
It all stems from you doing 8.5, I reckon. The person in the s
t car takes exception to this. You see, in this day and age people like you (and me) are worse than gary glitter. Glitter only abused kids, you and I kill them. Without a shadow of a doubt, because you drove so irresponsibly fast, some trees fell down in the rain forest and killed some pygmy children.
This is the hysterical nation we now live in.
I did a track day yesterday. I think that makes me responsible for Iceland.
Last week i returned from a weeks motoring in northern Spain. had a great time. People there are even pleased to see a Boxster, or at least, not one single person gave me the coffee beans..
Upon return to the UK i get off the ferry and am driving on the m'ways, observing all the st driving, the middle lane hogging, the tailgating in torrential rain, etc. As i near home i come off the mways and make my way along the first normal A road since my return. I am behind a car towing some kind of absurd squashed caravan thing, not a trailer tent but some type of box on wheels that collapses down, i think.
Its night time and the other driver is as blind as a bat. He starts to drive in the middle of the road, and drives over hatched areas and filter lanes and all sorts. As i said to the wife, if he's insane enough to holiday in that thing he's towing, he certainly shouldn't be driving.
Anyway we continue further, down to 32 mph in a 60 limit at one point, and at the first safe available opportunity i overtake him. What does he do? We all know, don't we? He gives his headlights a damn good flashing at me.
Over the past 4 years i've done 10k miles motoring in france and spain, and not once, not one single time at all, has an overtaken driver flashed his lights at me. Indeed in france, they're very co-operative when being overtaken in my opinion.
But the very first car i overtake on a non-m'way or dc, i get the full treatment.
This nation has been turned into a race of mindless, unthinking, hysterical zombies, i reckon.
It all stems from you doing 8.5, I reckon. The person in the s
t car takes exception to this. You see, in this day and age people like you (and me) are worse than gary glitter. Glitter only abused kids, you and I kill them. Without a shadow of a doubt, because you drove so irresponsibly fast, some trees fell down in the rain forest and killed some pygmy children.This is the hysterical nation we now live in.
I did a track day yesterday. I think that makes me responsible for Iceland.
Last week i returned from a weeks motoring in northern Spain. had a great time. People there are even pleased to see a Boxster, or at least, not one single person gave me the coffee beans..
Upon return to the UK i get off the ferry and am driving on the m'ways, observing all the s
t driving, the middle lane hogging, the tailgating in torrential rain, etc. As i near home i come off the mways and make my way along the first normal A road since my return. I am behind a car towing some kind of absurd squashed caravan thing, not a trailer tent but some type of box on wheels that collapses down, i think. Its night time and the other driver is as blind as a bat. He starts to drive in the middle of the road, and drives over hatched areas and filter lanes and all sorts. As i said to the wife, if he's insane enough to holiday in that thing he's towing, he certainly shouldn't be driving.
Anyway we continue further, down to 32 mph in a 60 limit at one point, and at the first safe available opportunity i overtake him. What does he do? We all know, don't we? He gives his headlights a damn good flashing at me.
Over the past 4 years i've done 10k miles motoring in france and spain, and not once, not one single time at all, has an overtaken driver flashed his lights at me. Indeed in france, they're very co-operative when being overtaken in my opinion.
But the very first car i overtake on a non-m'way or dc, i get the full treatment.
This nation has been turned into a race of mindless, unthinking, hysterical zombies, i reckon.
Max_Torque said:
or of course feel free to deliberately obstruct people as normal, and one day, the BiB will be pulling your crushed car, with you (and any passenegrs) smeared into strawberry jam inside, from under the wheels of a large lorry or other car.
Just something to think about.............
Why would that happen? Advanced driving is about "owning" your road space, and if that means slowing others down, then so be it.Just something to think about.............
Deva Link said:
Max_Torque said:
or of course feel free to deliberately obstruct people as normal, and one day, the BiB will be pulling your crushed car, with you (and any passenegrs) smeared into strawberry jam inside, from under the wheels of a large lorry or other car.
Just something to think about.............
Why would that happen? Advanced driving is about "owning" your road space, and if that means slowing others down, then so be it.Just something to think about.............
I was in a vaguely similar situation a few weeks ago.
Following a woman with her son in a sporty little Alfa, she was tailgating the car ahead making it unsafe for me to pass so I stayed behind her for about 5 miles on a single carriageway A-road. I observe the two-second rule because I hate stone chips and I like to see where I'm going.
As we entered town she shot round a major spiral roundabout, and I followed at the same speed, just enjoying the moves after a boring stretch. Seemed to upset her that I was still behind her when we came off the roundabout so she slooooowed riiiiight doooown under engine braking. I did the same but came within a second of her probably as I saw no need to brake on a 40mph sweeping curve with good visibility. She eventually got down below 20mph and I did not react, except by getting quite close now which I felt was acceptable given the low speeds.
She then proceeded to brake-test me repeatedly in heavy traffic and wet weather. Completely insane considering the size of my car compared to hers and the fact that she had a child in the passenger seat.
It just goes to show what a bunch of highly-strung nutters there are on our roads. I've even considered buying one of those dash-mounted digital camcorders off ebay. I don't suppose the law will be interested but it'll be fun posting them on the Tube
Following a woman with her son in a sporty little Alfa, she was tailgating the car ahead making it unsafe for me to pass so I stayed behind her for about 5 miles on a single carriageway A-road. I observe the two-second rule because I hate stone chips and I like to see where I'm going.
As we entered town she shot round a major spiral roundabout, and I followed at the same speed, just enjoying the moves after a boring stretch. Seemed to upset her that I was still behind her when we came off the roundabout so she slooooowed riiiiight doooown under engine braking. I did the same but came within a second of her probably as I saw no need to brake on a 40mph sweeping curve with good visibility. She eventually got down below 20mph and I did not react, except by getting quite close now which I felt was acceptable given the low speeds.
She then proceeded to brake-test me repeatedly in heavy traffic and wet weather. Completely insane considering the size of my car compared to hers and the fact that she had a child in the passenger seat.
It just goes to show what a bunch of highly-strung nutters there are on our roads. I've even considered buying one of those dash-mounted digital camcorders off ebay. I don't suppose the law will be interested but it'll be fun posting them on the Tube
heebeegeetee said:
Deva Link said:
Max_Torque said:
or of course feel free to deliberately obstruct people as normal, and one day, the BiB will be pulling your crushed car, with you (and any passenegrs) smeared into strawberry jam inside, from under the wheels of a large lorry or other car.
Just something to think about.............
Why would that happen? Advanced driving is about "owning" your road space, and if that means slowing others down, then so be it.Just something to think about.............
matt0677 said:
It just goes to show what a bunch of highly-strung nutters there are on our roads.
That's a point well worth keeping in mind - if you're a reasonable person then you tend to think everyone else is the same but they're not.You really don't know the mental or emotional state of the other driver, or what they've been taking/drinking etc.
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