Skid Training follow x2 accidents

[King of Dings]

Can anyone recommend at decent skid training course?

I've lived in the sticks for 10 years and in the last 5 years have written off two cars thanks to black ice. Was only traveling at 45mph both times.

The local council have decided not to grit the B roads in this area anymore (Oxfordshire / Chiltern Hills), hence someone is killed every winter thanks to black ice. Last year a mother and child were killed.

So I want to get myself and my wife trained up to reduce the odds.

[p1esk]

King of Dings said:

Can anyone recommend at decent skid training course?

I've lived in the sticks for 10 years and in the last 5 years have written off two cars thanks to black ice. Was only traveling at 45mph both times.

The local council have decided not to grit the B roads in this area anymore (Oxfordshire / Chiltern Hills), hence someone is killed every winter thanks to black ice. Last year a mother and child were killed.

So I want to get myself and my wife trained up to reduce the odds.

I know this doesn't answer your question in the way you want, but I think it would be equally useful to learn how to read the road and take appropriate action before getting to the stage where you need to be dealing with skids. You may still wish to do skid pan training, but skid avoidance is also well worth learning, if I may suggest it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BOF]

I really don't want to put you off trying skid pan experience, but would caution you against rating the results too highly for you and your wife.

Countries like Sweden and Canada have in the past discouraged skid pan training as it can give a false sense of security.

In your postion, I would have a look at TIRES for the winter and correct pressures checked regularly.

Plus (IAM mode) 45mph on a cold winter morning on untreated roads...losing it twice?

BOF.

PS - My reply crossed with the above reply while I was looking for this link...
http://tyremen.myshopify.com/collections/winter-ty...

Edited by BOF on Friday 10th October 17:39

[SlipStream77]

In my opinion, I think taking all the precautions you can would be the best idea. The other posters are both correct in stating that the car should be in good condition, tyres especially and it is important to be able to read the road comprehensively. I would also add that in particularly bad weather, give careful thought as to whether the journey is necessary.

However, I think that your idea of getting some car control training is a good one, it does give another level of safety in that, if all else fails, the driver may have a better chance of correcting the car. Of course it shouldn't lead to over-confidence, but it may, under certain circumstances be just what is required.

I googled "car control courses" and several appeared, including one by the IAM. There are several courses by Don Palmer, including specifically, 'car control' and 'ice driving', there is also some useful information on the links on the site under 'Knowledge/Driving Handbook' and 'Car Control Handbook'.

http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/

Personally, I think that skid pan training should be compulsary for all new drivers, learning the basics such as releasing the brakes of a locked up car to regain steering and how to correct oversteer could potentially save many lives.

I hope that helps. Safe driving.

ETA
If you are in a position to do so, think about choosing a car with driving aids such as stability control and ABS and a high safety rating, manufacturers such as Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Audi etc. have these sort of attributes.

Edited by SlipStream77 on Saturday 11th October 20:16

[BOF]

SS,

I have done the skid pan a few times, a good social event for further education.

But, if I get my speed or observation wrong next month and hit ice, I will probably hit the footbrake and sh!t myself.

What I MIGHT try to remember is...keep the foot planted on the brake...remember that the ONLY advantage of ABS is the ability to BRAKE and STEER... towards the softest thing I can head for.

I will probably cadence brake though..in eight years as an Observer, only ONE driver has explained to me the advantage of ABS.

BOF.

[SlipStream77]

BOF said:

SS,

I have done the skid pan a few times, a good social event for further education.

But, if I get my speed or observation wrong next month and hit ice, I will probably hit the footbrake and sh!t myself.

What I MIGHT try to remember is...keep the foot planted on the brake...remember that the ONLY advantage of ABS is the ability to BRAKE and STEER... towards the softest thing I can head for.

I will probably cadence brake though..in eight years as an Observer, only ONE driver has explained to me the advantage of ABS.

BOF.

BOF

I wasn't suggesting that ABS is necessarily a panacea for the OP's issue, merely that it is one of a range of things that can improve safety on the road. There are, of course, some situations where ABS cannot help, this is why some cars have multiple driver aid systems.

The wikipedia pages explain the differences and interactions of two of the more common driver aids:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_sys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_...

It's impossible to give advice on what to do 'if a car skids on ice', since there are so many variations of what can happen based on the vehicle, the conditions and the situation. For this reason I think that experience on a skid pan is so important.

It's also important to read the driver's manual of cars that have driver aids so that you understand how they work, what to expect and their limitations.

Ideally, a driver should drive in such a way that driver aids are never needed, but of course, situations can change suddenly, and when an emergency arises, they are there to help.

[p1esk]

SlipStream77 said:

Ideally, a driver should drive in such a way that driver aids are never needed, but of course, situations can change suddenly, and when an emergency arises, they are there to help.

I think that should be the first objective, regardless of any special techniques and driver aids that may be available to help us.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[brisel]

King of Dings said:

Can anyone recommend at decent skid training course?

I've lived in the sticks for 10 years and in the last 5 years have written off two cars thanks to black ice. Was only traveling at 45mph both times.

The local council have decided not to grit the B roads in this area anymore (Oxfordshire / Chiltern Hills), hence someone is killed every winter thanks to black ice. Last year a mother and child were killed.

So I want to get myself and my wife trained up to reduce the odds.

Try the Silverstone website. I'm doing a skid pan course there in November while my wife is trying to get an Exige and a Ferrari 360 sideways elsewhere there.

http://www.silverstone.co.uk/php/de_skidControl_ex...

I'm with everyone else on this - get yourself some advanced driver training. I can highly recommend the IAM's Skill For Life - prevention is way better than cure. Once you are heading for a solid object at 45 mph on black ice, no amount of driver aids or deft handling is really going to do much more than reduce the severity of an inevitable crash.

http://www.iam.org.uk/eshop/membershipshop/sfl.htm

Oh, and I love the username

[Nigel Worc's]

I personally dislike skid pan training.

My reason is quite simple, for members of the public its expensive, unless you can practise something you will never get to be good at it etc etc etc.

Tyres must be about the right answer for you, if you live in the sticks and have places locally that are known to suffer from black ice, get yourself some winter tyres.

Our euro cousins in Sweeden, Denmark, Norway, even Germany, have to fit these tyres during certain months.

I'd suggest the German spec ones would be ample for you.

[p1esk]

Nigel Worc's said:

I personally dislike skid pan training.

My reason is quite simple, for members of the public its expensive, unless you can practise something you will never get to be good at it etc etc etc.

Tyres must be about the right answer for you, if you live in the sticks and have places locally that are known to suffer from black ice, get yourself some winter tyres.

Our euro cousins in Sweeden, Denmark, Norway, even Germany, have to fit these tyres during certain months.

I'd suggest the German spec ones would be ample for you.

I can see that winter tyres should be of benefit for the generality of winter conditions, but would they really be of much help on black ice? I wouldn't have thought so.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Nigel Worc's]

It all depends on the tyre Dave.

I've been in Canada, Norway (mainly), Sweeden, & to a lesser extent Denmark in the midst of winter, with vehicles gripping on ice and snow in a very similar fashion to gripping on tarmac.

They do it all the time in some areas of Norway (the northernmost bits).

I have no idea what the compounds were, I know some of them had studs, which we weren't supposed to use in Germany (as the krauts don't like studs on their tarmac)

I'd imagine a Canadian forum would be good to ask on, as the language will be easiest to understand (except the frog bit)

[BOF]

Nigel Worc's said:

I personally dislike skid pan training.

My reason is quite simple, for members of the public its expensive, unless you can practise something you will never get to be good at it etc etc etc.

Tyres must be about the right answer for you, if you live in the sticks and have places locally that are known to suffer from black ice, get yourself some winter tyres.

Our euro cousins in Sweeden, Denmark, Norway, even Germany, have to fit these tyres during certain months.

I'd suggest the German spec ones would be ample for you.

I lived in Syracuse, New York, in the worst winter in 100 years...we had 162" of snow...that is thirteen and a half feet...2 inches closes Heathrow?

In the US, if you got stuck without winter tyres it was a $100 spot fine...never missed a day off work...never saw a bump...traffic was moving at appropriate speeds.

Go for the tyres...just for starters...think about if further driving education might just help you...a half hour on a skid pan will NOT.

BOF

[Holst]

I dont think that tires will help much on black ice, if at all.

Packed snow as you get in canada is quite grippy with the correct tires, but black ice is totaly different.

You might get some grip on black ice using tires with lots of metal studs, but those tires are totaly innapropriate in the UK as you will wear them out very fast if your using them on tarmac.

I agree with the posters above about training, if your going too fast and you hit some black ice then you are pretty much a passenger no matter how much skill you have.

[BOF]

Holst,

"You might get some grip on black ice using tires with lots of metal studs, but those tires are totaly innapropriate in the UK as you will wear them out very fast if your using them on tarmac."

Are studs even legal in the UK?

BOF.

[p1esk]

Nigel Worc's said:

It all depends on the tyre Dave.

I've been in Canada, Norway (mainly), Sweeden, & to a lesser extent Denmark in the midst of winter, with vehicles gripping on ice and snow in a very similar fashion to gripping on tarmac.

They do it all the time in some areas of Norway (the northernmost bits).

I have no idea what the compounds were, I know some of them had studs, which we weren't supposed to use in Germany (as the krauts don't like studs on their tarmac)

I'd imagine a Canadian forum would be good to ask on, as the language will be easiest to understand (except the frog bit)

Snow, and different forms of ice, seem to vary in the degree of difficulty they present to a driver, but I'm still inclined to think that black ice is a much more serious problem, regardless of the tyres being used, unless you're talking about studded tyres, and even then I'm not sure how much benefit they would give. Even they need the prospect of being able to bite into something.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Onehp]

p1esk said:

Snow, and different forms of ice, seem to vary in the degree of difficulty they present to a driver, but I'm still inclined to think that black ice is a much more serious problem, regardless of the tyres being used, unless you're talking about studded tyres, and even then I'm not sure how much benefit they would give. Even they need the prospect of being able to bite into something.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Hi, I live in Sweden and work as an automotive engineer. I can give my perspective in the tire question and some more.

First off, there is a BIG difference between summer tires and (nordic) winter tires, even on ice. Also, the last years the (nordic) studdless tires have become a lot better and are getting close to studded tires concerning performance.
As an indication, stopping distance from 50km/h with ABS ON ICE is about 50m for the best studded tire and little over 60m for the best studdless. This year a chinese "winter" tire was also tested, should be representative of a good summer tire, and there the "stopping distance" was ... 190m (onehundredandninety)!!!

The Swedish "Auto,Motor and Sport" has this free test report from last year on nordic winter tires - its in Swedish but you can read brands and numbers I suppose (dubbad = studded): http://www.automotorsport.se/biltester/2007/0721/0...

They also had a test of "european" winter tires where the performance on ice was not measured: http://www.automotorsport.se/biltester/2007/0722/0...

Grip on ice needs to be balanced with grip on wet asphalt on studdless tires, in the tire design they require opposite measures and every tire is a compromise there. So nordic winter tires are not very good on wet asphalt relatively to european tires, although the difference or contrast between wet asphalt and ice performance is much smaller on the nordic ones and that is good - you know better what to expect.

So much for tires. The other important safety measure one can take, in addition to good winter tires, is to get a car equipped with ESP. In the nordic countries it is considered a must have on even the smallest budget cars and is more effective than a skid training. Yes I said that, Tiff Needell confesses the same in this little demo of electronic aids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

Of course, the most important measure perhaps is to adapt your driving (and speed) to the circumstances. Most modern cars have an outside temp readout, become very carefull when the temperature drops below 3 degrees celcius, especially on bridges, near water/moist/mist, shadowy and low areas etc.

Hope this helps :-)

Cheers, Frederik

EDIT: small but important addition: be sure to change back to summer tires in summer, winter tires start skidding like a too soft eraser when temperatures are summer high!

Edited by Onehp on Wednesday 15th October 20:56

[Nigel Worc's]

nice post, many thanks

[Vaux]

Onehp said:

Yes I said that, Tiff Needell confesses the same in this little demo of electronic aids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

He seems to have a lot more steering input, and takes it off a lot slower, on the non-ESP run compared to the ESP run?
Maybe for the camera?
(PS - not saying ESP isn't a good thing)

[henrycrun]

If you driving the same B roads regularly, then make a note of locations where there is poor drainage (in daylight obviously) so you can crawl past those spots when you know temps are at zero.
Also get your wife up to speed(!) with engine braking

Edited by henrycrun on Thursday 16th October 17:02

[Onehp]

Vaux said:

Onehp said:

Yes I said that, Tiff Needell confesses the same in this little demo of electronic aids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

He seems to have a lot more steering input, and takes it off a lot slower, on the non-ESP run compared to the ESP run?
Maybe for the camera?
(PS - not saying ESP isn't a good thing)

Hmm, you probably need more input without ESP to get response... but he was very slow to take it off. Either he already surrendered at the second skid or it is a evil masterminded conspiracy.

Anyhow I can say that ESP works and I take special comfort in it at higher speeds when it easily is superior to human input (or at least untill I get the possibility to brake individual wheels at will ).