Overtaking. Correct priority?
Discussion
I shall explain the situation I found myself in.
Three cars travelling approx 50mph, I was number three and we were all spaced evenly and safely. A safe opportunity to overtake arose so I waited a moment for the car in front to indicate etc and none was forthcoming so I proceeded to signal and manouvere. As I drew level with the middle car with the front of mine he started to move out, I gave it the briefest of moments before braking, giving the driver the opportunity to realise he had made a mistake by pulling out in front of me. Instead of pulling back in he continued with his 'slow' overtake. Infuriatingly exactly the same thing happened a few miles later, even with me making a point of waiting for him this time to make sure he wasn't going to pull out.
I guess what I'm trying to ask I'm I right to be annoyed at the driver. How long an opportunity should you give the car in front to pull out?
Three cars travelling approx 50mph, I was number three and we were all spaced evenly and safely. A safe opportunity to overtake arose so I waited a moment for the car in front to indicate etc and none was forthcoming so I proceeded to signal and manouvere. As I drew level with the middle car with the front of mine he started to move out, I gave it the briefest of moments before braking, giving the driver the opportunity to realise he had made a mistake by pulling out in front of me. Instead of pulling back in he continued with his 'slow' overtake. Infuriatingly exactly the same thing happened a few miles later, even with me making a point of waiting for him this time to make sure he wasn't going to pull out.
I guess what I'm trying to ask I'm I right to be annoyed at the driver. How long an opportunity should you give the car in front to pull out?
It sounds like the driver of the vehicle you were targeting for the overtake, was unaware of your presence...
A couple of quick questions;
1. Did you consider a horn note or a flash of the headlights before committing to the overtake?
2. Did you move to your offside, waiting a couple of seconds, before dispatching with the accelaration?
Personally, I approach all overtakes with significant regard. I suppose the key thing from this is to learn from the experiance and understand how it can be prevented next time.
Jimbo
A couple of quick questions;
1. Did you consider a horn note or a flash of the headlights before committing to the overtake?
2. Did you move to your offside, waiting a couple of seconds, before dispatching with the accelaration?
Personally, I approach all overtakes with significant regard. I suppose the key thing from this is to learn from the experiance and understand how it can be prevented next time.
Jimbo
It sounds as though you only need to ask yourself one thing: Were your own actions safe? Sounds like the answer is a resounding, Yes. And you can therefore comfort yourself with the knowledge that, although the manoeuvre didn't come off, it was solely down to failings of the other driver.
Annoying for a moment, or so. Then, best shrugged off and forgotten.
Annoying for a moment, or so. Then, best shrugged off and forgotten.
Edited by TPAC on Saturday 4th October 17:05
If this instance occured in the same drive, an hour down the road. I would suspect that you need to look at managing your mindset and the behaviour of fellow drivers.
If overtakees keep 'popping out' without warning, mid overtake, then I would suggest that you could be more pro-active in preventing this from happening.
Here are a few tips...
1. Whilst evaluating an overtake, ensure you are scanning the mirrors of the target vehicle. Is the driver checking their mirrors on a regular basis? - look for eye contact from them...
2. ... if you have eye contact, chances are they are aware of your presence, if so, an overtake may be on. If there is no eye contact, suspicions should be aroused.
3. Watch the target vehicle. is the driver wavering towards the centre white line? this can be a strong indicator that the target vehicle may be looking to make progress before you.
4. If the overtakee is still unaware of your presence, you should move your vehicle into a 'contact position' and close down on the impending overtakee...
5. If safe, a move to the offside to evaluate the safety of the overtake, if clear & safe, a full offside position should be taken, for a final check before you offer commitment to an overtake...
6. Once offside and before committing to an overtake, grab the overtakees attention with a horn warning cum headlight burst - alert drivers will acknowledge your intention and may provide you with an indication or a change in road position to pass them.
7. Most drivers may not have even seen you, let alone be aware of your presence - this is the most dangerous part of an overtake - if the driver is not even aware that I'm there, then I'm concerned about commiting to the overtake... at the end of the day, if Joe Public 'pops-out' mid-overtake then it's your problem...
Unless I have a firm believe that the overtakee is aware of my intention and projection, I would not commit to overtake them - I would rather call-off a doubtful OT than be side-swiped into a field with my wife and family aboard. To hold the moral highground is one thing, to have a serious accident on your hands, regardless of blame, is another.
Put simply, if a target overtakee 'pops-out' mid overtake, I would suggest the signs were there prior to the overtake being considered - it's down to the Advancing Driver to read the signs and evaluate the risk - things do not happen suddenly, the signs are there...
As an Advanced Driver, we have a duty to protect outselves, and other ignorant road users.
If overtakees keep 'popping out' without warning, mid overtake, then I would suggest that you could be more pro-active in preventing this from happening.
Here are a few tips...
1. Whilst evaluating an overtake, ensure you are scanning the mirrors of the target vehicle. Is the driver checking their mirrors on a regular basis? - look for eye contact from them...
2. ... if you have eye contact, chances are they are aware of your presence, if so, an overtake may be on. If there is no eye contact, suspicions should be aroused.
3. Watch the target vehicle. is the driver wavering towards the centre white line? this can be a strong indicator that the target vehicle may be looking to make progress before you.
4. If the overtakee is still unaware of your presence, you should move your vehicle into a 'contact position' and close down on the impending overtakee...
5. If safe, a move to the offside to evaluate the safety of the overtake, if clear & safe, a full offside position should be taken, for a final check before you offer commitment to an overtake...
6. Once offside and before committing to an overtake, grab the overtakees attention with a horn warning cum headlight burst - alert drivers will acknowledge your intention and may provide you with an indication or a change in road position to pass them.
7. Most drivers may not have even seen you, let alone be aware of your presence - this is the most dangerous part of an overtake - if the driver is not even aware that I'm there, then I'm concerned about commiting to the overtake... at the end of the day, if Joe Public 'pops-out' mid-overtake then it's your problem...
Unless I have a firm believe that the overtakee is aware of my intention and projection, I would not commit to overtake them - I would rather call-off a doubtful OT than be side-swiped into a field with my wife and family aboard. To hold the moral highground is one thing, to have a serious accident on your hands, regardless of blame, is another.
Put simply, if a target overtakee 'pops-out' mid overtake, I would suggest the signs were there prior to the overtake being considered - it's down to the Advancing Driver to read the signs and evaluate the risk - things do not happen suddenly, the signs are there...
As an Advanced Driver, we have a duty to protect outselves, and other ignorant road users.
I agree with pretty much everything you say however I would say there is only so much 'assesment' you can do before performing a routine move. I have to admit with feeling uncomfortable with flashing and beeping unless absolutely necessery, to me those actions would be perceived as aggressive and certainly whilst driving a company branded vehicle unacceptable.
He did get a nice blast of the horn afterwards tho
He did get a nice blast of the horn afterwards tho
1950trevorP said:
So, uncomfortable with advance headlamp warning,
but comfortable with using horn AFTERWARDS?
Yes, I don't think many people would appreciate being overtaken by someone flashing and beeping at them, to me it is overly aggressive and in the scenario given I would imagine the car in front would interpret a flash as an invitation to go.but comfortable with using horn AFTERWARDS?
As for beeping the horn afterwards yes I do feel comfortable, many of us have the odd lapse of concentration and a beep may be what it takes to be shaken out of it. If I had been just one yard further up the road I could very easily be typing this with a stick attached to my forehead.
OK - having failed in the "other people are like me" test,
I recommend:-
Assuming it is clear in the mirror, make sure there is a big enough gap ahead to go for, then move out before accelerating, and when you have a good look to see how it fits, give a warning if necessary and check for reaction. Accelerate hard for a short time, lift off as you go alongside, then tuck in without braking.
1950trevorP said:
OK - having failed in the "other people are like me" test,
I recommend:-
Assuming it is clear in the mirror, make sure there is a big enough gap ahead to go for, then move out before accelerating, and when you have a good look to see how it fits, give a warning if necessary and check for reaction. Accelerate hard for a short time, lift off as you go alongside, then tuck in without braking.
I agree with Raf, I wouldn't sound the horn or flash my lights prior to, or during the overtake. I feel that there is a stong chance either of these actions would be misinterpreted or may unsettle a nervous driver.I recommend:-
Assuming it is clear in the mirror, make sure there is a big enough gap ahead to go for, then move out before accelerating, and when you have a good look to see how it fits, give a warning if necessary and check for reaction. Accelerate hard for a short time, lift off as you go alongside, then tuck in without braking.
I tend to cover the horn whilst overtaking and keep a close eye on the other car, the slightest hint of them starting to pull out once I have committed to the overtake would get a quick blast to let them know I'm there. This usually results in them correcting their driving and allows the overtake to continue safely. If not, I'd back off and not bother trying again as they are obviously twonks.
micky g said:
I agree with Raf, I wouldn't sound the horn or flash my lights prior to, or during the overtake. I feel that there is a stong chance either of these actions would be misinterpreted or may unsettle a nervous driver.
I worry that it seems aggresive flashing headlights but I drive around on Cheshire and Shropshire fast single carriageway A roads and it does work.If you're in any sort of decently powerful car then drop a gear or two, pull out and flash your headlights and you're past someone doing 50 before they've even figured out what's going on. Don't flash too early though as people sometimes react by braking which is fine if you're already out on the other siede of the road as it makes the overtake even quicker.
I've had no instances of people flashing me when I've completed the overtake, but I take care not to pull in too sharply.
micky g said:
1950trevorP said:
OK - having failed in the "other people are like me" test,
I recommend:-
Assuming it is clear in the mirror, make sure there is a big enough gap ahead to go for, then move out before accelerating, and when you have a good look to see how it fits, give a warning if necessary and check for reaction. Accelerate hard for a short time, lift off as you go alongside, then tuck in without braking.
I agree with Raf, I wouldn't sound the horn or flash my lights prior to, or during the overtake. I feel that there is a stong chance either of these actions would be misinterpreted or may unsettle a nervous driver.I recommend:-
Assuming it is clear in the mirror, make sure there is a big enough gap ahead to go for, then move out before accelerating, and when you have a good look to see how it fits, give a warning if necessary and check for reaction. Accelerate hard for a short time, lift off as you go alongside, then tuck in without braking.
I tend to cover the horn whilst overtaking and keep a close eye on the other car, the slightest hint of them starting to pull out once I have committed to the overtake would get a quick blast to let them know I'm there. This usually results in them correcting their driving and allows the overtake to continue safely. If not, I'd back off and not bother trying again as they are obviously twonks.
ETA. I did wonder whether the overtakee misinterpreted Raf's positioning, and thought Raf was effectively 'covering' for him, so that they could both overtake car number one in convoy.
Edited by TPAC on Sunday 5th October 12:42
If headlights are to be used to attract the attention of an overtakee, I prefer the idea of switching them on well before the overtake starts, rather than just giving a flash. You might even switch them on as you start closing on the overtakee from some way back, even before there is an immediate prospect of overtaking. This at least improves your chances of the overtakee becoming aware of you.
As for horn usage, again I prefer this to be done early, before you get too close, in order to minimise the risk of the other driver feeling this to be aggressive.
Of course we want overtaking to be done positively and safely, but I try to approach it in a fairly laid back style rather than getting too intense about it. If it's 'on' and you're quite happy, do it briskly. If there is any real doubt about it, just follow for a while and be patient. A decent opportunity will usually appear before too long, and unless you have real need for rapid progress, I suggest this should be sufficient to keep us happy.
Much as one might enjoy a good deal of spirited driving, there are times when we ought to be able to settle for more leisurely progress - which still needn't be all that slow.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
As for horn usage, again I prefer this to be done early, before you get too close, in order to minimise the risk of the other driver feeling this to be aggressive.
Of course we want overtaking to be done positively and safely, but I try to approach it in a fairly laid back style rather than getting too intense about it. If it's 'on' and you're quite happy, do it briskly. If there is any real doubt about it, just follow for a while and be patient. A decent opportunity will usually appear before too long, and unless you have real need for rapid progress, I suggest this should be sufficient to keep us happy.
Much as one might enjoy a good deal of spirited driving, there are times when we ought to be able to settle for more leisurely progress - which still needn't be all that slow.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
raf_gti said:
I agree with pretty much everything you say however I would say there is only so much 'assesment' you can do before performing a routine move. I have to admit with feeling uncomfortable with flashing and beeping unless absolutely necessery, to me those actions would be perceived as aggressive and certainly whilst driving a company branded vehicle unacceptable.
He did get a nice blast of the horn afterwards tho
1. Since when is an overtake a 'routine move'? He did get a nice blast of the horn afterwards tho
2. Assesment is an ongoing process - it is never ending. An assesment leads to a driving plan, which will always need adjusting given the ongoing actions of other road-users.
3. I appreciate your comments regarding a short horn note / headlight flash before OT, especially given the fact that you are driving a company stickered vehicle. However, you are willing to give a long horn note as a rebuke, when you feel you have been wronged?
You are correct in ensuring that you do not court road-rage from another road user and I support this notion. In twelve years of driving to Roadcraft, I have never enconutered another road user who appears to have taken my OT approach as aggressive. I have encountered many road users who have reacted to my presence and acknowledged / assistend with my intention to pass however...
IMO an overtake is a routine move, such as reverse parking, pulling out from a junction etc etc. I do not profess to be an advanced driver but I would certainly not think to classify an overtake as something 'special', certainly not in the context of the scenario I gave.
From my personal point of view if I were to see flashing headlights behind me my first thought would be that it was the police and would straight away pull in, by the time the car had passed any shaking of the fists that I may be thinking about would be wasted as the car had long past.
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
From my personal point of view if I were to see flashing headlights behind me my first thought would be that it was the police and would straight away pull in, by the time the car had passed any shaking of the fists that I may be thinking about would be wasted as the car had long past.
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
raf_gti said:
IMO an overtake is a routine move, such as reverse parking, pulling out from a junction etc etc. I do not profess to be an advanced driver but I would certainly not think to classify an overtake as something 'special', certainly not in the context of the scenario I gave.
From my personal point of view if I were to see flashing headlights behind me my first thought would be that it was the police and would straight away pull in, by the time the car had passed any shaking of the fists that I may be thinking about would be wasted as the car had long past.
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
As far as I'm concerned overtaking can fairly be regarded as a routine move for any decently competent driver. That's not to say it should be done in a cavalier fashion and without adequate preparation and care, but I don't think it should in effect be considered to be the preserve of advanced drivers.From my personal point of view if I were to see flashing headlights behind me my first thought would be that it was the police and would straight away pull in, by the time the car had passed any shaking of the fists that I may be thinking about would be wasted as the car had long past.
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
raf_gti said:
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
Very true. 
Edited by Anti Macassar on Sunday 5th October 20:02
p1esk said:
raf_gti said:
IMO an overtake is a routine move, such as reverse parking, pulling out from a junction etc etc. I do not profess to be an advanced driver but I would certainly not think to classify an overtake as something 'special', certainly not in the context of the scenario I gave.
From my personal point of view if I were to see flashing headlights behind me my first thought would be that it was the police and would straight away pull in, by the time the car had passed any shaking of the fists that I may be thinking about would be wasted as the car had long past.
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
As far as I'm concerned overtaking can fairly be regarded as a routine move for any decently competent driver. That's not to say it should be done in a cavalier fashion and without adequate preparation and care, but I don't think it should in effect be considered to be the preserve of advanced drivers.From my personal point of view if I were to see flashing headlights behind me my first thought would be that it was the police and would straight away pull in, by the time the car had passed any shaking of the fists that I may be thinking about would be wasted as the car had long past.
But lets face it, if all of us on here had the same view on every aspect of driving there would be no need for the forum as we are all in agreement. Just because we differ on opinion doesn't mean to say we don't want the same end result and that is to make safe, swift progress.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Why would the art of OT be the preserve of an Advanced Driver? Anybody can perform an OT at any point? Whether or not it is done safely, with technique and common-sense is another matter...
Edited by ADJimbo on Monday 6th October 00:46
From kind of at the bottom of the food chain...what I try to advise my punters, as an amatuer, is;
"When you consider an overtake...think, WHY do I want to do this?
If, after the hours we have spent together, the discussions about the performance of your car, in the correct gear, in the right conditions...you decide to go for it...
You are looking for a 15 MPH difference between you and your target...otherwise you are probably offside too long!
Why not relax, pick your nose or something?"
BOF.
"When you consider an overtake...think, WHY do I want to do this?
If, after the hours we have spent together, the discussions about the performance of your car, in the correct gear, in the right conditions...you decide to go for it...
You are looking for a 15 MPH difference between you and your target...otherwise you are probably offside too long!
Why not relax, pick your nose or something?"
BOF.
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